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Vermont ski visits down 7%.
- Thread starter ski diva
- Start date
Has anyone come up with any answers to this that don't involve weather? I mean, when I hear this stuff, I think, "well, duh, it didn't snow until February." Christmas: crappy, MLK: crappy. Presidents day wasn't even looking that great until the storm on the 14th. I think having the conditions suck for 2 out of your 3 major holidays and only seeing a 7% decline is pretty good. Go Vermont! 
Oh, I'm glad you brought Killington up -- the thread on epic about the pass prices for next year has gotten totally out of hand.
Here's where I'm coming from.
- We drive up on weekends to ski. Killington is a 4-5 hour drive. Anything longer than that and we'll get in late enough on Friday that I'll be dragging all day Saturday, and we'd have to think about leaving earlier than 3-4 on Sundays.
- Regardless of how long Killington's season used to be, it still is undeniably longer than other mountains further south (Mt. Snow, Stratton).
- It has some challenging terrain. I've never been to Okemo, but several people I've talked to say it has nothing that rivals outer limits and the canyon area at Killington.
So, we have to decide where to ski next year post-AllForOne pass. We'll likely stay at Killington as long as the price they come out with isn't totally ridiculous.
I guess my question is - is Killington really THAT MUCH worse than MRG, Stowe, Smuggs, or any of the other northern VT resorts getting thrown around in the epic thread? The way people are talking you'd think I'd have to be insane to pay a cent more than the former $300-$350 price of the bronze pass to ski there. Is it really worth turning our 4-5 hour drive into a 6-7+ hour drive? I'm looking for a balance between "close to home" and "offers a variety of challenging skiing". As far as I can tell, coming from NYC, Killington is it.
Sorry to hijack this thread, but I'm just really curious to see how other people feel about this.
Here's where I'm coming from.
- We drive up on weekends to ski. Killington is a 4-5 hour drive. Anything longer than that and we'll get in late enough on Friday that I'll be dragging all day Saturday, and we'd have to think about leaving earlier than 3-4 on Sundays.
- Regardless of how long Killington's season used to be, it still is undeniably longer than other mountains further south (Mt. Snow, Stratton).
- It has some challenging terrain. I've never been to Okemo, but several people I've talked to say it has nothing that rivals outer limits and the canyon area at Killington.
So, we have to decide where to ski next year post-AllForOne pass. We'll likely stay at Killington as long as the price they come out with isn't totally ridiculous.
I guess my question is - is Killington really THAT MUCH worse than MRG, Stowe, Smuggs, or any of the other northern VT resorts getting thrown around in the epic thread? The way people are talking you'd think I'd have to be insane to pay a cent more than the former $300-$350 price of the bronze pass to ski there. Is it really worth turning our 4-5 hour drive into a 6-7+ hour drive? I'm looking for a balance between "close to home" and "offers a variety of challenging skiing". As far as I can tell, coming from NYC, Killington is it.
Sorry to hijack this thread, but I'm just really curious to see how other people feel about this.
I guess it all comes down to is what it's worth to you. Higher prices and a shorter drive, or a longer drive and (perhaps) lower prices (I have no idea what other season passes go for).
If you like Killington and find the other places too far and don't mind paying the price, go for it.
You're right about Okemo, too. It's not as challenging -- or as large -- as Killington. But you might want to give it a try, anyway. You might be surprised. It's my home mountain, and it really is a lot of fun ('course I only ski on weekdays when it's not crowded, which means a lot to me). Plus I only pay $279. for a mid-week season pass.
If you like Killington and find the other places too far and don't mind paying the price, go for it.
You're right about Okemo, too. It's not as challenging -- or as large -- as Killington. But you might want to give it a try, anyway. You might be surprised. It's my home mountain, and it really is a lot of fun ('course I only ski on weekdays when it's not crowded, which means a lot to me). Plus I only pay $279. for a mid-week season pass.
ski now work later
Angel Diva
I've been reading the Epic thread on this topic and will share these thoughts: I typically go to Killington in the early season because they have the most snow (it's 2.25 hours from my house) and agree that the terrain is bigger, a little longer, and more challenging than Stratton, Mt. Snow, or Okemo. I skied Smuggs in late March this year, and while many of the trails were closed, I could see that Smuggler's Notch has a lot of great, challenging terrain and bigger mountains that are North facing and more rugged than the East facing Killington, Snow, and Okemo. There is a lot of glade terrain too if you're into that sort of thing, but it's a 3.5+ hour drive (in Winter) from Northampton, MA so if you're heading up from the NY metropolitan area (which I assume you are), then it's pretty far for a weekend trip.
I think Killington will give you the most challenge and variety for a weekend and so if it's your only choice, then I would buy that pass and keep going. My beef with Killington is that I think the trails are not maintained enough and are sometimes open when very icy and dangerous and the crowds always contain large groups of young males who are going VERY fast on snowboards and skis. I've almost been clipped a number of times as have my children, and I am sometimes afraid to ski there. If you are on the more advanced runs, the crowds are probably less, however. I usually ski Stratton midweek (and will add Okemo to my list as I bought a mid-week Stratton/Okemo super pass), but when I go on a weekend to Stratton, there are safety personnel at key places on the mountain urging folks to go slowly and safely. I like that. Okemo gets very crowded on weekends though it's a friendly mountain and I like that.
I've been slacking off, I'm sorry. Ever since I moved from Boston, I haven't skied Vermont, except for the epic snow year in '04-'05 - from my perspective, if I have to fly, why not fly to where the snow is? :D
In terms of the ski experience, I do think so. You can't even put MRG and Killington in the same category b/c Killi's focus is on the for-profit bottom line and on putting as many people on the mountain as possible. MRG, on the other hand, is a coop, smaller, less crowded, rustic, no grooming, less variety of - but maybe more challenging - terrain.
But, because you need to balance distance with the ski experience, Killi could be right for you. I'd have to think, though, that anyone who has to fly to a mountain is not going to choose Rutland as a destination, given the other options.
In terms of the ski experience, I do think so. You can't even put MRG and Killington in the same category b/c Killi's focus is on the for-profit bottom line and on putting as many people on the mountain as possible. MRG, on the other hand, is a coop, smaller, less crowded, rustic, no grooming, less variety of - but maybe more challenging - terrain.
But, because you need to balance distance with the ski experience, Killi could be right for you. I'd have to think, though, that anyone who has to fly to a mountain is not going to choose Rutland as a destination, given the other options.
Hm.
I definitely agree with most (if not all) of the criticisms of Killington, especially in terms of crowding and the general vibe of the crowd there. It feels like it has way more than its fair share of angsty teenagers and young guys tearing down the hill. If I was flying somewhere, it would definitely not be Killington. Once you know your way around, though, you can avoid a lot of that and find good places to ski even when the mountain is packed, especially if you get out at 8am, eat lunch around 11 and get off the mountain around 3. You miss the worst times that way.
I have a feeling what we'll do this year is stay with K for the regular weekend trips, and spend long weekends elsewhere. We did presidents day up in the Mt. Washington area this year and had a great time. On the list for this year is definitely MRG, and a few days at Okemo, because I just learned they offer group freestyle lessons for skiers for pretty cheap.
I just get tired of the "Killington sucks, why would anyone in their right mind ski there" threads. There are reasons. There's a new "best resort in the east" thread over on epic now - will be interesting to see how it goes:
https://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=56485
I definitely agree with most (if not all) of the criticisms of Killington, especially in terms of crowding and the general vibe of the crowd there. It feels like it has way more than its fair share of angsty teenagers and young guys tearing down the hill. If I was flying somewhere, it would definitely not be Killington.
Once you know your way around, though, you can avoid a lot of that and find good places to ski even when the mountain is packed, especially if you get out at 8am, eat lunch around 11 and get off the mountain around 3. You miss the worst times that way.I have a feeling what we'll do this year is stay with K for the regular weekend trips, and spend long weekends elsewhere. We did presidents day up in the Mt. Washington area this year and had a great time. On the list for this year is definitely MRG, and a few days at Okemo, because I just learned they offer group freestyle lessons for skiers for pretty cheap.
I just get tired of the "Killington sucks, why would anyone in their right mind ski there" threads. There are reasons.
There's a new "best resort in the east" thread over on epic now - will be interesting to see how it goes:https://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=56485
It's gonna be a dogfight! :D
cyn
Ski Diva Extraordinaire
We ski Vermont mostly, with Mt. Snow being our home mountain because it's 3 hours away as opposed to Killington which is 5 hours' drive. We have not, however, bought our season's passes yet this year, because we're waiting to see what Killington has to offer.
Yes, the weather was pretty crappy last season, but I think there are other reasons visits to Vermont are declining.
I remember when we first started going to Mt. Snow on a regular basis. The hotels were RIDICULOUSLY priced, and most of them still are. One weekend, we ended up in a place that charged us $120 per night, and there wasn't even any heat, and no manager on the premises to come and fix the problem! Even today, lodging is still WAY to pricey for what you get, in my opinion. We found a nice, clean place where we now stay regularly, and we consider ourselves lucky to be paying $130 per night.
Several years ago, getting food was also annoying. All the restaurants were booked solid, and we often had to get a pizza and bring it back to our room. Now, with fewer people going to Mt Snow, you have a better choice of places to eat, but there sure aren't any bargains. Compare Vermont food and lodging prices to those out west, and there's a big difference.
Killington does have more reasonable lodging/food choices than Mt. Snow, and the skiing is better and more varied, but that extra 2 hours of driving can be a bummer.
I think Vermont should get its act together to attract those skiers who are sick of driving for hours just to be shafted by expensive restaurants and crummy overpriced hotel rooms. Combine those factors with higher gas prices and poor snow conditions, and it's no surprise that visits are down.
Yes, the weather was pretty crappy last season, but I think there are other reasons visits to Vermont are declining.
I remember when we first started going to Mt. Snow on a regular basis. The hotels were RIDICULOUSLY priced, and most of them still are. One weekend, we ended up in a place that charged us $120 per night, and there wasn't even any heat, and no manager on the premises to come and fix the problem! Even today, lodging is still WAY to pricey for what you get, in my opinion. We found a nice, clean place where we now stay regularly, and we consider ourselves lucky to be paying $130 per night.
Several years ago, getting food was also annoying. All the restaurants were booked solid, and we often had to get a pizza and bring it back to our room. Now, with fewer people going to Mt Snow, you have a better choice of places to eat, but there sure aren't any bargains. Compare Vermont food and lodging prices to those out west, and there's a big difference.
Killington does have more reasonable lodging/food choices than Mt. Snow, and the skiing is better and more varied, but that extra 2 hours of driving can be a bummer.
I think Vermont should get its act together to attract those skiers who are sick of driving for hours just to be shafted by expensive restaurants and crummy overpriced hotel rooms. Combine those factors with higher gas prices and poor snow conditions, and it's no surprise that visits are down.
Wow, and we think that Tremblant is expensive. But I think all areas in the east are on the decline. I know that Tremblant has less numbers in the last 2 years than before. One reason was the strike in 2005/2006. People found other places to go to ski and liked it. If we didn't have the condo, I know that we would travel to the townships and Jay as well as Tremblant. Tremblant would become the off season place again, like many are describing Killington. Owl's Head, Sutton and Jay would be skied more often as they are cheaper in regular season. Skiing in North America may come to be like Europe. Eng_ch correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like Brits and Europeans take a skiing vacation for 1-2 weeks, maybe a few times a season, and don't ski weekends like we do. And if the price of gas doesn't level off, I don't think the numbers will increase this year.
First, about the 7% down figure. Sure it's from a "slow" year of the previous year. But for what I remember, 05 was a pretty crappy year snow-wise too! So, worse weather, less skiers, can't be helped. Why ski crappy snow, I ask? It's not a job, it's supposed to be FUN!
I skied as much as normally do. Pretty good considering the lack of snow first half. That that translate is I went up nearly back-to-back weeks on end! I've never done that in years past!
I took a week to ski over the pond. So that takes away 2 weekends I "could have" skied in Vermont. But in truth, I go out west one week most season anyway. So this was nothing different.
Now, about Killington. I, too, have a love-hate relationship with it. I don't ski enough in one place to buy a pass. I agree with rechelv, Killington has the variety few other resorts (Stratton, Okemo) have. Not to mentioned those other resorts aren't exactly "cheap" either. But I also agree with another diva the crowd at Killington unnerves me. One thing about Killington is you can't get away from the crowd entirely, even if you stick to the more advance terrain. You can only hope the "crowd" there knows what the heck they're doing!
Rechelv, have you tried Stowe? That's *my* favorate resort. It's got better snow condition for not much longer drive. Because the drive is mostly on the freeway, you get to really fly on it all the way.While with Killington, you have a fairly long stretch of slow twisty local road. The terrain of Stowe is also quite varied, with fewer un-ruly crowd. I can't say if you'll get bored with a season pass. But I find it a good alternative/diversion.
Another option is Pico. 07 was the first year I tried it, having driven by it gazzilion times to Killington. I'm impressed. The un-groomed bump fest is actually quite refreshing! ;)
MRG and others maybe nice. But they're equally hard to get to as Killington. On a winter Friday night, after fighting traffic out of NYC, slug through the snow/ice of CT/MA, negociating the curvy icy local roads for one more hour is THE killer that puts me off from ever trying MRG/Sugarbush and such.
I skied as much as normally do. Pretty good considering the lack of snow first half. That that translate is I went up nearly back-to-back weeks on end! I've never done that in years past!
I took a week to ski over the pond. So that takes away 2 weekends I "could have" skied in Vermont. But in truth, I go out west one week most season anyway. So this was nothing different.
Now, about Killington. I, too, have a love-hate relationship with it. I don't ski enough in one place to buy a pass. I agree with rechelv, Killington has the variety few other resorts (Stratton, Okemo) have. Not to mentioned those other resorts aren't exactly "cheap" either. But I also agree with another diva the crowd at Killington unnerves me. One thing about Killington is you can't get away from the crowd entirely, even if you stick to the more advance terrain. You can only hope the "crowd" there knows what the heck they're doing!
Rechelv, have you tried Stowe? That's *my* favorate resort. It's got better snow condition for not much longer drive. Because the drive is mostly on the freeway, you get to really fly on it all the way.While with Killington, you have a fairly long stretch of slow twisty local road. The terrain of Stowe is also quite varied, with fewer un-ruly crowd. I can't say if you'll get bored with a season pass. But I find it a good alternative/diversion.
Another option is Pico. 07 was the first year I tried it, having driven by it gazzilion times to Killington. I'm impressed. The un-groomed bump fest is actually quite refreshing! ;)
MRG and others maybe nice. But they're equally hard to get to as Killington. On a winter Friday night, after fighting traffic out of NYC, slug through the snow/ice of CT/MA, negociating the curvy icy local roads for one more hour is THE killer that puts me off from ever trying MRG/Sugarbush and such.
We haven't tried Stowe, but it's definitely on the list. Google maps puts it about 100 miles and just over an hour farther than Killington, but you're right about the higways.
I really want to try the front four -- I just found this description:
"Starr is not groomed, and the view from the top of this run, as it disappears in a steep 37-degree dive toward the base lodge far below, is one you won't forget. If you haven't met your match by this time, then you're ready for Goat, a moguled gut-sucker no more than three to five large bumps wide, with a double fall line." (link)
Heh, yikes. 35+ degrees, bumps, and a double fall line. So maybe the season after this one. ;)
I really want to try the front four -- I just found this description:
"Starr is not groomed, and the view from the top of this run, as it disappears in a steep 37-degree dive toward the base lodge far below, is one you won't forget. If you haven't met your match by this time, then you're ready for Goat, a moguled gut-sucker no more than three to five large bumps wide, with a double fall line." (link)
Heh, yikes. 35+ degrees, bumps, and a double fall line. So maybe the season after this one. ;)
The "best resort in the east" thread is actually not living up to my expectations *at all* (relatively civil! no sweeping generalizations!), but someone who lives out west just jumped in with this:
'This thread is like asking "Whats the least painful way to stab yourself in the face?"'
...which I actually find pretty hysterical.
Quiver Queen
Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Of the numerous places in VT I've skied, Killington is the only one at which I wouldn't be concerned about being bored, as the terrain is varied and challenging. And as far as the grooming is concerned, I'm actually quite impressed with how they manage their snow, especially in lean years and waaaaay better than Mt. Snow. Regarding crowds, I rarely see them, since I never ski a Saturday or a holiday; usually they are noticeable only when limited trails are open early in the season. True, they've cut back in the last couple of years on Ski Patrol & other safety personnel, but that was one of ASC's ways of trying to pay off its debt, so hopefully will no longer be an issue with the new purchase. Yep, I'll miss the All-for-One Pass in a big way, but there were so many days @ Killington & Mt. Snow with the only people on the mountain being pass-holders, mostly eating bag lunches, that those days were total losses for the mountains--no wonder they had to cost cut like crazy. The only real issue I've had with Killington is so many cross-mountain cat tracks & runs there aren't many runs where you can zip top-to-bottom. So this coming season I'm doing the bargain-priced mid-week pass at Okemo (where they have plenty of top-to-bottom zip runs) with Ski Diva--if it's not as good as she says she'll be owing me a nice bottle of wine. (Deal, Diva?)
