Vacation property

[Pequenita]

I'm contemplating buying vacation property. Two related questions (and if this seems too personal for a public thread, perhaps you can either PM me or we can move this to another forum):

1) Does anyone own vacation property (not a timeshare) with friends and have any experiences -- good and bad -- that she can share? What's made the experience work? I want to make sure that the friends and I remain friends until we grow old and beat each other up with our canes.

2) If I buy solo, is there a maximum distance from where I permanently live that would make sense to purchase within? Does it make a difference whether it's a condo vs. single family home or duplex? If I rent it out a few weekends in season, will my stuff be wrecked the next time I show up?

Thanks for your thoughts....

 

[num]

I don't have anything to add, but I'm in a similar boat and looking forward to diva wisdom on the topic

 

[Lilgeorg]

We have a "vacation home". I put the quotes because we bought a single family home in the Catskill Mts of NY in an area that few people would consider vacation property. It happens to be across the street from the hang gliding landing zone. That said, we bought it when we lived in Philadelphia and were both working high stress jobs. We found the 4 hour drive just at the edge of what we were willing to travel almost every weekend in the summer. We had a rule that worked for us which was ,you could talk about work until the halfway spot and from there on it was the weekend and work talk was outlawed. On the way home , work talk could not be started until we were back at the half way spot. We found that we did not want to talk about work on the way back. For us, it was a real break from work.

We did not choose to buy with a friend because we wanted a retreat and did not want to deal with other people's issues on vacation. We had the advantage of having friends to play with right across the street.

We are retired now and living in Vermont which is 3.5 hours from the house. Our children have stayed at the house but we have never rented it.

I am sure a condo would have many advantages to a single family home; no lawn to mow!!!

Finally, we did not buy the property to make money. It has been a place to play, palin and simple.

Bottom line for us was :

Will we use it enough?
Would the travel make sense?
Would it stretch the budget too much?
Would our children enjoy it too?

Hope this helps a little.

 

[ski diva]

This is a dangerous road. I know, because we bought what we THOUGHT was a vacation home in Vermont; now we spend almost all our time here, and our house in PA is (still) for sale, because we want to move here full time! (Which, by the way, in a down market, is not at all fun. Anyone interested? It's a really nice house!)

Still, I'd think long and hard before going in with friends. Who knows where your life will lead you? If you move/get married/have kids etc., your entire situation may change. And then what? Or what if you have a falling out? There are a million things that can happen.

Regarding distance: when we bought our place, we went for as far as we could tolerate driving til we hit good skiing. Which for us, was 5-1/2 hours. Everyone handles this differently, so that's up to you.

Also, if you're not going to be right there, or at least close by, I'd recommend a place where someone else can keep an eye on it. A condo is great for this, because they handle all the building's maintenance and will check on it when you're not around.

And as far as renting the place out, we tried that a couple times before we gave it up. Not that the money wasn't good or that the place was a mess (it wasn't), but we hated wondering if this was going to be the time that someone trashed it. And I just didn't like the idea of someone ELSE being in MY place.

Some advice, for what it's worth: Try a season rental first. We did this for a couple years before we bought to see how it'd work out. Might give you a taste of what's to come.

Where are you thinking of buying?

 

[Jilly]

To add to SkiDiva, we have a seasonal rental. Now the place is no palace, but its clean and reasonable and on the mountain. The nice thing is that we are not responsible after April 15th for it. If I owned a place I would want to check up on it, or pay a service/neighbour to do it. I know that the owners of the unit we rent do that. As for renting a unit out that you own - we have a friend that does that. He has rules that you must adhere to or you don't get to rent again. Bascially he only rents to people he knows. When we first looked at a seasonal rental we asked ourselves the question, just us and we can invite friends, or go with another couple and deal with time issues of whose weekend/week etc. We decided that we would like to do it on our own. That way we can come and go as we like. Good luck and hope all of these ideas help.

 

[altagirl]

I'm a Realtor and one of my friends from California wanted to do this - buy a condo out here in UT with some of her friends. Problem is, they had a falling out before they even found a place to buy.

That's really the biggest problem I see - if you can't afford it on your own, you'd really have to have something in writing describing how it will be handled when there are disagreements. And there are lots of things that come to mind on how it could go wrong. Plus, what if you buy, the market drops, and then the other person wants to sell? You could have to pay to sell it? How would that work out?

That said - buying a vacation property by yourself or with family or someone you REALLY trust is a good idea overall. As far as location, I'd just make sure it's somewhere you want to visit. I mean, I have friends who live on the east coast who have condos out here and visit a lot - it's only a couple hour flight to get out here and then maybe a 30 minute drive.

As far as property management goes - if you want to rent it out regularly, I don't know how you could avoid paying someone to do it for you. (Unless you REALLY visit regularly to take care of it. It would make your trips tax deductible though...)

One problem in SLC - the property management places are at the resorts or in Park City - if you want a condo in SLC (which is WAY cheaper), you'd probably be doing it on your own. The property management places in the valley that I know of all focus on long term rentals, not vacation rentals. But if you can afford a condo on the mountain, you're all set.

 

[tcarey]

So I did exactly this-bought a property in Cavendish Vt about 4 years ago-with my best friend! At first we worked on the place like mad,mu husband is very handy and does all the work.Her husband or ex had no interest(nor did I want that) and was out of the picture.We bought a 2600 ft square fixer upper for dirt cheap.There have been some rough spots but without her coming up with half the bills there is no way we could swing this.What will the future bring? I am not sure.But all is good and I love having our place im VT. T

 

[abc]

Ha! Another subject up front in my mind. Hmmm, we divas share more than just fondness of snow, don't we? ;)

The advice of seaonal rental is spot on. I've done exactly that. I rented a house for a year, which now stretched into the second... but I'm currently looking to buy and I know exactly WHERE, and what NOT! For me, anyway.

No single family house for me. I don't want to spend half of my weekend doing lawns and cleaning away the cobwebs -- this house is too big for one! A townhouse it will be. And I envision paying, say, the wife of the maintenance guy to clean it on Friday before I go up!

Distance: A lot goes into that equation. If you have infinite choice, I'd say 2-3 hours. Just enough to be in a COMPLATELY different environment but not so long it become a drag. But realistically, that simply won't put me AT the foot of any skiing resort. Just in the hills I can enjoy biking and kayaking. It must take advantage of commuter rail roads nearby. YPMV -- your priority may vary.

I've no plan to rent it out. It's not in any hot sort after location. But my main home in New York City is. So I plan to rent out my apartment in Manhattan on weekends. There's a steady market for people who want a place in the heart of the city on weekends.

Never cross my mind to BUY with friends. Share a seasonal rental maybe, not buying. Maybe after you share a season or two of rental together, you feel more comfortable buying together?

 

[Pequenita]

It never really crossed my mind to buy with friends until this weekend when I told them I was considering buying vacation property. It turned out they were thinking about it, too. While we trust each other's fiscal judgments and are very similar in spending/saving, I think they (a couple) are looking for something a little beyond my price range. And, there's the fear factor of what happens if something happens to their marriage or I marry a chump, and the real kicker -- I was wavering between beach vs. mountains and am now leaning towards WV hills while they are thinking water.

My motivation is that I think it would be great to get out of the city and my tiny condo on the weekends. I've been going stir crazy. And real estate where I'm looking is not insane. I'm not thinking in pure terms of monetary profit, but rather more of a sanctuary. However, I am not handy with major fix-it stuff, and it sure would be nice to have company on those weekends.

 

[ski now work later]

It never really crossed my mind to buy with friends until this weekend when I told them I was considering buying vacation property. It turned out they were thinking about it, too. While we trust each other's fiscal judgments and are very similar in spending/saving, I think they (a couple) are looking for something a little beyond my price range. And, there's the fear factor of what happens if something happens to their marriage or I marry a chump.

When purchasing real estate with another person or a couple, it's a business transaction. You should consult with a real estate attorney in the state in which the property is located and think through what would happen if one of you wanted out, if one of you died, etc. Reducing that agreement to writing may also make sense. Thinking this all through in advance of the purchase will help each of you clarify what you need from the transaction and will be a trial run of how you will be business partners together. If I'm not mistaken, I think you are an attorney, so I may be preaching to the choir....

I had a very satisfying business partnership from 1994 - 2001 and it ended amicably when I was ready to move on. We had an agreement before hand and a dissolution agreement as well. We still share some of our library materials with each other, and it's always nice to run into her.

Just remember, business is business. And have fun with it!

 

[SnowHot]

My grandpa always said!
(dontcha love when something starts with that)

My Grandpa always said.........
PartnerShips are the worst Ships that ever set sail
Those are the kind of Ships that sink FriendShips.:(

 

[lisaski]

I purchased a condo in Park City, Utah two years ago. I live in California. For someone who lives and works over 700 miles from her vacation condo, I do visit there a lot. I spend over a month's worth of days there per year (so far!). I agree with what was said in a previous post. If you're going to purchase something far from home, make sure it is a place that you really love to visit. I absolutely love Park City! The snow is much better quality than in Tahoe. When I made the purchase, I was thinking of it as an investment. That's one of the reasons I chose Park City over say, Tahoe. I could get a better value in Park City and Park City is still sort of under-valued compared to most ski resort towns. Initially, I thought I would try to make extra income by renting it out. We even have on-site rental management. But, I fell in love with the condo. Its' only 5 years old. I purchase new beds and just can't bear the thought of having strangers use it! What counts most it that I enjoy my time there immensely and even with the down housing market, it has still appreciated in value in the two short years I have owned it. Another thing to consider is summer time activities in the area. When you own, you own all year long.

 

[abc]

It never really crossed my mind to buy with friends until this weekend when I told them I was considering buying vacation property. It turned out they were thinking about it, too. While we trust each other's fiscal judgments and are very similar in spending/saving, I think they (a couple) are looking for something a little beyond my price range. And, there's the fear factor of what happens if something happens to their marriage or I marry a chump, and the real kicker -- I was wavering between beach vs. mountains and am now leaning towards WV hills while they are thinking water.

My motivation is that I think it would be great to get out of the city and my tiny condo on the weekends. I've been going stir crazy. And real estate where I'm looking is not insane. I'm not thinking in pure terms of monetary profit, but rather more of a sanctuary. However, I am not handy with major fix-it stuff, and it sure would be nice to have company on those weekends.

Get something YOU can afford. I'm sure it exist. Maybe not the "ideal" location. Maybe not the right style, or layout. etc. But if you can't carry the property on your own, partnering with "friends" will simply subject you to the same kind of risk as over-extending yourself. If you can't buy it off their hand (or ready to sell if off) in case something happen to them, you risk lossing it all together.

(if you want company, rent it to them. Or vice versa)

 

[pinto]

We bought with family a year and a half ago ... we had looked for quite a while, thinking that we wanted a house -- something big enough for family gatherings (my family of four, my parents, my aunt and uncle, and my cousin and his family of five). But after a while, it became clear that some didn't want to spend as much money as others, and then we couldn't decide exactly where to do it -- and then the thought of HOUSE UPKEEP when I have enough to do here at my main house ... yuck.

We ended up with a two-bedroom condo, so we can't all stay in it at the same time -- but we decided that that probably wouldn't happen very often, anyway. We just rent something for holidays and the like. But six or seven of us can squeeze in there if necessary (say, my family and my two parents).

We all get along well and don't foresee any big issues ... but's that's what they all say, right? So, we were very upfront about the legal part -- my cousin is an attorney, and he helped us draw up a contract that specifies how we handle all situations. What if someone wants out of the partnership? When do we discuss selling? If two want to sell and two don't, what happens? How do we choose our vacation weeks? So on and so on.

We don't rent it out; we are all within a 1.5-hr drive, and wanted the flexibility to go up last minute. So that was an easy part to (not) deal with.

We got a good deal on a place that needed a lot of work. As in, we've pretty much gutted and redone everything except the bathrooms (which we're doing right now). So far it's worked well. We have had minor disagreements here and there, but we've worked things out quickly. It takes a lot of compromise, which should go without saying.

The best thing is that we all have different strengths. Everyone has taken on a different role: construction planning/estimating (my uncle the engineer), GC (my dad the ultimate DIYer), design (me, the dabbler with a close friend who's an int. designer), legal (my cousin), and so on.

I think it's also worked out well that we bought a place where we CAN'T all be there together and get on each other's nerves too much. We don't tend to do that to each other, but it's always possible. A little distance isn't a bad thing.

My gut is that if you're going in with friends or family, you need to be either very very close, or not that close. I think it's the middle where most problems crop up. If you aren't that close, then it can be more of a business deal. If you are very close, then you are more likely to be of the same mind about things. (BUT STILL PUT IT IN WRITING!!)

 

[Quiver Queen]

Ten years ago I purchased a quarter share in a Killington condo, tho' not with people I knew, that just was how the sales were structured. One out of every four weeks, which rotates thru the year, is exclusively for my use to rent, leave empty, auction off for a fund-raiser, give to friends, or stay there myself. I get the tax benefits of a second home, none of the responsibility (a huge factor in my decision), always a nice clean place to go, and it retains its value if I decide to sell. Additionally, thru this program, if it's not my week I can still stay in any unoccupied unit in the complex by just paying the maid fee. I also deposit one week per year into a timeshare pot, then trade it for essentially free lodging at any of thousands of sites--I've stayed @ Big Sky, Jackson Hole, Snowmass, Park City and numerous other fun places so far. Even now I think it was the best decision for me.

 

[sibhusky]

Twenty-one years ago, we purchased a condo on the side of Camelback mountain in Pa. We did it on our own, no co-owners. We never once rented it out because we didn't want other people trashing the place or sleeping in our beds. Initially, it was a HORRIBLE investment. Although when we bought it had seemed like a really good deal relative to our place in NJ, the housing market took a dive for YEARS after that so that our mortgage was more than the condo would have been worth on the open market. In addition, at that point the developer washed his hands of the place, leaving a bad financial situation for the homeowners and some common areas with MAJOR issues. The homeowners' fees skyrocketed. Many owners walked and let the bank take the condo, leaving the HOA in worse shape when it came to collecting the money they needed. Then we needed to basically re-build the "sports center" from the ground up. We sat in homeowners' meetings where a shooting could actually have occurred and I would not have been surprised. The screaming would go on for the entire day.

We stayed, however, agreeing with most of the bad news. Since it was the only development next to the slopes, my feeling was that the value was always there no matter what the competition. I felt there was no substitute for walking right to the trail and skiing. One issue was that many of the condos were rented out and for a while the adjacent condo was rented out to what must have been football teams based on the noise and number of kegs. I went BALLISTIC one night after a party that went on for days and pounded on the door of the adjacent condo in my nightgown in the snow and was screaming (lack of sleep...) about how I was not going to call homeowner security I was going to call the state police and how did they expect to ski the next day after that much alcohol? Fortunately, after numerous complaints to the owners about the quality of those they were renting to, they dumped the place for a song to a wonderful family with small children.

For a long long time we didn't think we'd get our money out of the house. We called it the money pit. But, over time, the sports center WAS rebuilt and it was lovely. Landscaping was done. Siding was replaced, roofs replaced, both decks replaced, the foundation shored up (the things were sliding down the hill -- no steep slopes ever again for us!). When we finally decided to move to Montana and just before we put the place on the market, there was suddenly a HUGE pop in the value of the place and we sold it for triple what we paid for it. But that was about 15 years after we bought it. In the interim, my husband had given up skiing (which meant he'd really been upset with the investment), we'd had a daughter (who became a ski racer due to her proximity to the slopes), and I'd gone from an 8 days a year skier to a 40 day a year skier.

It was only about an hour and 40 minutes away. We left all our stuff there and just jumped in the car every Friday night from mid-December until the end of the season. We spent Christmas there every year. My daughter WEPT when we put it up for sale as it was the "good time" house. We never had tons of errands which interfered with work when we were there. Santa always came to THAT house (sure she was around 16 by then, but ...). My husband wasn't buried in work brought home. It was the "just us and no worries place". She didn't feel that way about the house in NJ.

The first Christmas in our new, larger, sturdier house in Montana felt truly odd.

It was a great thing for us as a family to have. Easy vacations when my daughter was a tot, easy place to share with friends, little maintenance to worry about, etc. BUT the bad times were truly rough. Thank goodness the value went up by the time we sold. It was truly a learning experience I'd not wish on anyone.

 

[IntheClouds]

With the downturn in the market, this next year is a great time of thinking of purchasing a vacation home. Everyone's comments & experiences here give great advice. I know there have been 2 times I have wanted to purchase a vacation home that could also have been rented out & a tax advantage taken. If my SO was a bit more of a financial risk taker than he is(he won't take risk in this area at all) we would have cleaned up 10 years later if we chose to sell. If not, it would have all still been excellent. Don't shy away from the vacation home purchase idea. But do determine what you can put up with as well as the financial aspect. You will be able to find exactly what will work great for you & your needs when you determine exactly what those might be. But, don't buy when there is a buying frenzy is my only real advice.