Thoughts on this situation ?

[AJM]

So this is making the news over here in NZ.

Stuff

www.stuff.co.nz

Im pretty sure there is more to this than has been published but wondering how the group feels about it?
I have noticed a few people on various FB groups blatantly asking if there are any instructors that would be willing to take them for private lessons and bypass the on mountain official ski school. In most instances they have been politely and sometimes not so politely told that it is illegal and that any instructor caught doing it could lose their job and possibly face prosecution.

It seems that this guy was just helping some friends and in no way was he taking money but as I said the general consensus is that there might be more to the story.
However it does raise the issue of friends helping friends, a parent teaching their children etc etc.
I know I myself have had some great tips from friends but is it now a no no ???

 

[Pequenita]

I suspect there was something else gong on that led the instructor to think the customer was giving lessons for pay. Mountain rules and insurance aside, the main reason not to pay a non-resort instructor for lessons, imho, is that you can't get into the ski school line at some of the busier resorts, and a 2-hour lesson winds up being 30 minutes of not being in a line or on a lift.

 

[AJM]

I think there is definitely more to it.
But I do remember a friends daughter getting into trouble at our local hill for giving us some tips on a day she wasn't working.

 

[Rashika]

I read the article as well and suspect there must b more to it. I can't see how the mountain can ban people from giving their friends or family or in my case my better half helping me, ski tips, it's how we learn.

 

[marzNC]

So this is making the news over here in NZ.

Stuff

www.stuff.co.nz

Im pretty sure there is more to this than has been published but wondering how the group feels about it?

Here's what I noticed in the article:
"Sorrenson told Checkpoint they were a group of four and one of them was on his own on the learner slope.

"I was with two guys: One whose was the second day and the other was his first time. I was just reiterating how to stop, making sure they're doing sort of a nice wedge - a pizza with their skis."
. . .

"We were kind of sticking to our own. I didn't have my skis on, maybe that was something else. I knew that if I put my skis on, I wouldn't be able to stop a guy if he was flying towards a child or something."
. . .

Sorrenson said he was not sure of the line between helping a friend ski and being an instructor.

"I've paid for lessons in the past, but from my point of view, if somebody is a beginner and they have friends who want to teach them, I cannot see how that's bad for them.

"I would never have got lessons myself if I'd been put off at the start, if ... my father had been told to say that no, you're not allowed to teach your son. And then there was no chance I wouldn't be skiing now."
"

That means the man was in the beginner terrain without his skis, and was spending more than a few minutes trying to teach a never-ever to stop using a pizza. That's different from giving tips while skiing with a friend who already knows how to make a turn (pizza) and stop. It was a man teaching two men (not family) at the same time, while standing on the slope in his ski boots only. Presumably for more than 1-2 runs. Very different from a parent teaching their kid.

 

[geargrrl]

sounds like a hazard!!!! I never had a lesson from an instructor in ski boots.

 

[Jilly]

Well, I have taught beginners in ski boots only. But I was more running than sliding with them. 4 year olds can get away from you quickly.

As for the whole thing....resorts/clubs/fields, put out good money for advertising, infrastructure and people to run snow school. As we all know instructors are not paid anywhere where they should be. Lesson costs are big money to a student.

So I can understand a student wanting to pay less than the snow school rate. But the "rogue" instructor is the issue. At least here in Canada, members of the CSIA are insured by the CSIA. The snow school has additional coverage. If this rogue instructor gets sued, they would only have coverage from their personal insurance, as the CSIA coverage is for teaching at an accredited school. During the strike at Tremblant years ago I was asked if I wanted to teach. I said NO! They can go over to Grey Rocks or Mont Blanc. I have too many friends that teach for a living, and I'm not taking money away from them.

Many Ski Clubs teach at hills for a day or 2 with their members. But they have talked to the snow schools, they know they are coming and accommodate them. They do not get to use the snow school lines and everyone needs a lift ticket. @SkiBam did this with Rod Roy Ski Club for years. I did it with Cornwall Ski Club too.

 

[liquidfeet]

I'm trying to figure out what people here feel is OK and not OK since so many factors not told in the original story are being brought up. How important do you think these are for making this teaching scenario OK rather than justifiably forbidden?

--as long as the teacher does not get paid?

--as long as the teacher is not an instructor somewhere?

--as long as the teacher keeps skis on?

--as long as the teacher has not done this with other skiers on other days?

--as long as the teacher is only giving short duration tips, not teaching fundamentals which take a good amount of time for someone to learn?

--as long as the teacher is teaching people who already know how to turn left and right and stop?

--as long as the teacher is teaching family members or close friends?

 

[contesstant]

If an instructor wants to ski with a friend or family member and give some sort of free lesson, that's their prerogative. If money or compensation changes hands, they can be fired and the "student" have their pass revoked.

Not easy to prove that compensation has been given. But I can't imagine my husband getting in trouble for helping me, or my daughter, or a friend for a few runs. That would just be ridiculous. If he wants a paid lesson, it goes through the ski school. Period. Other instructors are not so scrupulous.

 

[SkiBam]

Gosh, I taught all my grandchildren how to ski. At the time (if I can recall that distant past) I might have been an instructor somewhere but not at the resort we were at. I also occasionally gave informal lessons - more like tips - to a friend (but, again, not when I was an instructor at that resort). No money exchanged, no lift-cutting privileges. A friend helping a friend. I do not see any problem with that at all.

I'm trying to think of another activity where helping someone learn in an informal way would be considered "illegal." Not saying it's a good idea, but you can teach people to drive. If you're at a pool or the beach, you can give a child or friend swimming tips, no?

 

[AJM]

I'm trying to figure out what people here feel is OK and not OK since so many factors not told in the original story are being brought up. How important do you think these are for making this teaching scenario OK rather than justifiably forbidden?

--as long as the teacher does not get paid?

--as long as the teacher is not an instructor somewhere?

--as long as the teacher keeps skis on?

--as long as the teacher has not done this with other skiers on other days?

--as long as the teacher is only giving short duration tips, not teaching fundamentals which take a good amount of time for someone to learn?

--as long as the teacher is teaching people who already know how to turn left and right and stop?

--as long as the teacher is teaching family members or close friends?

Its definitely all food for thought.
I'm not sure where I sit on this, I've only ever got tips from friends with the exception of my L3 guy who I spent about 1/2hr with last season in exchange for a bottle of red and he'll still call me over when he sees me skiing and give me little bite size tips.
I've also spent a lot of $$ over the years on formal lessons.

Crikey I'm guilty of it myself but its generally been in a more coaxing manner, ie I've taken less confident friends into terrain that they may not feel happy tackling on their own and helped them but more along the lines of "come on you've got this" and trying to give them the confidence.
We had a very low intermediate skiing with us a couple of weeks ago and we all went into this little bowl and she was very hesitant. I just stayed back with her and showed her how to pole plant effectively and told her to take her time and she was so happy at the bottom ...... is that breaking the rules ???
Footnote !!! I would never take anyone somewhere where I wasnt 100% sure they could handle it.

I guess its all a very grey area but it sounds to me like this guy may have been a repeat offender

 

[AJM]

If an instructor wants to ski with a friend or family member and give some sort of free lesson, that's their prerogative. If money or compensation changes hands, they can be fired and the "student" have their pass revoked.

Not easy to prove that compensation has been given. But I can't imagine my husband getting in trouble for helping me, or my daughter, or a friend for a few runs. That would just be ridiculous. If he wants a paid lesson, it goes through the ski school. Period. Other instructors are not so scrupulous.

Yes as I mentioned in the OP there have a few people asking for under the table private lessons on various FB groups over here and they've been shut down pretty quickly by the majority BUT the odd person has popped up asked for a DM to be sent to them. I guess there are those instructors that want to make a quick buck on the side which then puts the whole helping out a friend or family member situation at risk.
No one wins.

 

[snoWYmonkey]

I can't speak to this case as I don't know the whole story.

At my resort it is illegal to teach for compensation unless lessons are booked through the school. As the forest service issues the concession permit to only one business and its employees it would literally be breaking federal laws. I wonder if the student asking to break the law ever gets in trouble or just the instructor? Brings to mind most anti prostitution laws that fail to punish the purchaser who knows they are breaking the rules too.

I do not know if anyone being prosecuted by the feds, but quite a few colleagues have been fired for teaching or "babysitting" on the hill, out of uniform, in exchange for money or other compensation.

I would never do it, yet have been approached many times with the request. I try to be polite when turning away the request, but it is hard unless the question is accompanied with an attempt to understand the prices and how they can be so high.

I always make it a point to tell my supervisor when I am going out skiing with friends or family that I will be teaching for free not in uniform. To my knowledge there are no rules or l against this practice.

@liquidfeet I am sure I could give a different answer with more education about it, but to me as long as there is no money exchange, then it is really just a conversation even if the material and process is not any different from a paid lesson. In the US I would be very scared of giving tips beyond how to get back up and put a ski back on to strangers, but that has more to do with the liability and covering my b__t! So limiting it to friends and family might be another factor. The way I look at it my job is foremost to keep people safe and if I spend a few minutes or hours of my free time fulfilling that goal then it feels right to me.

 

[marzNC]

That means the man was in the beginner terrain without his skis, and was spending more than a few minutes trying to teach a never-ever to stop using a pizza. That's different from giving tips while skiing with a friend who already knows how to make a turn (pizza) and stop. It was a man teaching two men (not family) at the same time, while standing on the slope in his ski boots only. Presumably for more than 1-2 runs. Very different from a parent teaching their kid.

sounds like a hazard!!!! I never had a lesson from an instructor in ski boots.

In this particular situation, if the man had only been trying to teach one friend that might well have made a difference. But he was trying to teach two friends at the same time. Definitely could be a potential hazard. Especially since he said that "I knew that if I put my skis on, I wouldn't be able to stop a guy if he was flying towards a child or something." Also seems pretty clear he didn't know much about how hard it is to teach a never-ever.

At Big SNOW (indoor slope in NJ), my daughter's boyfriend (20-something) essentially got a private lesson for 45 min from an instructor who never put skis on. Big SNOW has instructors available on snow all the time. The place was very empty that afternoon. He never skied faster on the beginner teaching terrain than a fast walking pace. Worked well. He skied the "beginner slope" a couple times after learning on the banked turns feature.

 

[marzNC]

There are parents at Massanutten who try to teach their kids themselves all the time. Very often the parents are clearly advanced beginners themselves. I've also seen parents teaching their kids at big mountain out west. Those parents tend to be much more knowledgeable. At times it's clear the parent(s) was/is an instructor. No one has any problem with that scenario. Although I cringe at what some of the Massanutten parents do because they don't know what they don't know.

I've skied with friends who are intermediates in the last couple decades. Also a close friend who started skiing when her kids started ski school at Massanutten. I'm happy to point out a basic flaw that's easy to see. For instance, where their hands/arms are as they make turns. I tell them exactly what I've learned from a very experienced instructor and demonstrate. After that, I simply remind them by saying something like "hands." If they have had a lesson recently, I ask what their instructor said. If they ask more questions about technique, I tell them they need to take a lesson.

When my daughter was becoming an intermediate skier with the help of Massanutten ski school (ages 4-9) I always talked to her instructor afterwards. Usually learned one or two things that she needed to work on. I would simply remind her of that a few times as we skied together later on.

 

[MissySki]

I am definitely in the camp that folks are allowed to informally give tips to each other or teach something with friends and family or really whoever they are skiing with. As long as money isn't exchanging hands, I don't see how this should be regulated. There are plenty of times I have gives small tips to friends of lower level who ask a question or for me to demonstrate something. This isn't going on the whole time we are skiing, it's like a 3 minutes side conversation or something on the lift. Likewise, I have skied with plenty of non instructors and instructors alike who have provided me with a tip/demonstration/conversation on a ski topic etc.

I also take plenty of formal lessons and pay lots for them.. they are not the same thing as described above in the least. And as for examples like @contesstant mentioned above, who the heck gets to say her husband can't teach her whatever they want when he is off duty and skiing with her?? That's insane.

I always see parents teaching their kids to ski at Sunday River, they have itty bitty kids on leashes etc.. should that not be allowed? I think common sense needs to prevail here. If someone is offering lessons for some sort of profit at the ski area, that's a problem.. you can't tell people not to share tips or help beginners learn to ski when it's informal friend and family interactions imo.

 

[Pequenita]

@liquidfeet , for me it's the getting paid part where it crosses the line. It can create a contract because there is an exchange of $$ for instruction, but the terms of that contract are implied unless there was oral discussion or email/text exchanges. Many things change once there is an exchange of money: if you're on public land, is it a violation of the use permit; is it now creating an expectation that there will not be negligence on the part of the "instructor"; if something terrible happens, who can be held accountable?; likely no one is paying any sort of tax on the exchange, etc.

 

[empogo]

My biggest question is how this guy thought he’d be able to stop someone better without his skis on? Was he going to lay down in front of them? Grab their arm? Perplexing.

I don’t let students on any kind of hill until they demonstrate they can stop on command. Safety first.

I’m not certain about the legalities in the US vs elsewhere; here I’m allowed to teach a friend or family member for free but not in uniform, and we don’t get any kind of ski school privileges if I’m not in uniform. Anyone wanting to book a real lesson with me would need to go via the desk. Seems pretty simple; I wouldn’t want to open myself up to liabilities with a paying client in any other way.

 

[geargrrl]

Haven't seen it said, but if you are teaching under the table there is a huge insurance liability. I was a certified mountain bike instructor for many years. It's one thing to give a friend a few tips when on a ride, but another to be asked to coach/help out at a place where you do not have authorization from an entity to teach on their property, like at a city park. I would not do free coaching at group rides unless it was an event sanctioned by the organization I was teaching through at an area we had permission to teach in. At least in the US, lawsuits are always a possibility.

 

[BlizzardBabe]

Instructors that I ski with regularly (in paid lessons) will often chat w/me on the hill outside of a lesson and make a helpful comment or two, but it never goes beyond that. I have a group of friends who all share amongst ourselves any new revelations or ideas learned in a lesson, but since everyone has a different physique, style, ability level, confidence level, etc., I don't know how much is actually valuable. We just like tech talking when it comes to skiing.

My hubby is a professional swimming coach and I know he'd never teach outside of USA Swimming or US Masters Swimming b/c of the insurance issue.