the forward mount debate

[lil mountain girl]

hello everyone!

just wondering how you all feel about "women's specific" mounting ie: forward mounted skis . . .

personally, i haven't skied a forward mounted ski, but imagine they would seriously hinder skiing well in deep snow.

i personally have to work extra hard on some deep days (sitting in the back seat) just to keep my tips up . . . on traditionally mounted skis (of course, my current skies aren't ideal pow sticks . . . :o )

well, what say the divas?

 

[smpayne]

I had my bindings moved forward on my very stiff unisex skis. For a long time, I questioned if these skis were too long, but changed my mind after having the binding placement moved forward. All of a sudden, I figured out what every one was talking about when they told me to get over my tips. These skis have an 18mm radius normally, I think moving the bindings forward, cut this down a little. I mostly ski hard pack with these skis, they are crap in the powder.

I am very new to skiing powder, but I have heard that longer skis work better, that may make a difference in being able to keep the tips up. I prefer my softer/wider Missdemeanors (same size as my stiff skis) for powder, but for many reason think they would work better all around if they were longer.

If a unisex ski feels too long or if people are constantly telling your to get over your tips you may want to consider moving your bindings. I think if my stiff skis had been shorter, moving the bindings would have been a huge mistake.

 

[altagirl]

I can't stand it, personally. But it's worth trying. I've tried a few, and even when it's on a ski that I REALLY want to like - I just don't like it at all. To me, you lose the part of the ski you're driving by getting forward, which makes them feel less stable, and all that extra tail can get hung up. It's not for me.

The weird thing is that my husband LOVES center mounted skis. I guess you just have to figure out what works for you.

 

[Elangirl]

I guess that I don't get----sit back so your tips come up??? I used to do that with my straight skis back in the 80's----but with shaped skis, you have to be stacked over the center of your binding to ski. I ski all runs exactly the same way---stacked over the center of my bindings. I ski lots of powder and would not even consider leaning back---I can't even imagine doing that. It must be incredibly hard on your legs.

At any rate, I ski off groomed and powder most of the time---I center myself and just rip down the run. With the new skis you should always be centered. I ski mostly women's skis---and use the forward mounting position of the bindings. I am not a fan of stiff skis---again, I like to use the shape of my ski and when the ski is flexed and arced it makes great turns.

I carve on hard pack and love it, I ski softly on powder and it is fun---but I am always stacked up---ankles, knees and hips.

 

[abc]

I reserve my judgement for now.

Recently, I learned one trick (not a new one, but new to me): flex my ankles. I had great success with unisex skis using that technique. But hasn't had a chance to try that on a "forward mounted" women skis yet.

Up until that point, I've always been told I need to be more forward, whether I'm on women ski or not. So, I feel it's more or a technique than ski thing. And maybe women don't quite have to right muscle group to do the ankle flex as well as average men?

Whether the forward mounted binding on women's ski will actually hinder my position or not, now that I'm no long in the back seat on a "regular" unisex ski, I'll have to wait to find out.

 

[Elangirl]

I am so glad that you learned about ankle flexing---all flexing starts at the ankle. so many women that I teach have boots that are too stiff and do not allow them to flex properly. If you can't flex your ankles, then you are right, you will have to bend over more and you will be in the back seat.

Your ankle flex should match your knee flex which matches your hip flex. You will find that this position is comfortable and allows you to ski easily over all terrain.

I am glad to hear that you are more forward on your skis now and can assure you that if you are in a balanced position, the forward mounted binding position will not affect your skiing.

 

[smpayne]

I reserve my judgement for now.

Recently, I learned one trick (not a new one, but new to me): flex my ankles. I had great success with unisex skis using that technique. But hasn't had a chance to try that on a "forward mounted" women skis yet.

Up until that point, I've always been told I need to be more forward, whether I'm on women ski or not. So, I feel it's more or a technique than ski thing. And maybe women don't quite have to right muscle group to do the ankle flex as well as average men?

Whether the forward mounted binding on women's ski will actually hinder my position or not, now that I'm no long in the back seat on a "regular" unisex ski, I'll have to wait to find out.

I actually had my bindings moved forward first, then got better boots that fit properly and had a flex adjustment. To get used to the boots, I started with them on the softer flex setting and discovered a huge difference in my skiing, it was like my stiff skis finally started to flex properly. I have played with the adjustments since on both the stiff unisex skis and the softer women's skis. While I'm on the stiffer skis, I like the softer flex in the boot and vise versa on the women's skis.

I don't think it is about having the right muscles, but a different weight distribution (center of gravity, etc), but then again, guys are usually stronger in the legs than we are and therefore can flex boots easier. I guess by softening up my boot flex, I was able to get more weight forward in the right place to make the skis work better. For my particular skis, moving the binding forward was a very good move, the new boots just made it even sweeter.

Oh, too many factors to consider - makes my head spin.

 

[lil mountain girl]

I guess that I don't get----sit back so your tips come up??? I used to do that with my straight skis back in the 80's----but with shaped skis, you have to be stacked over the center of your binding to ski. I ski all runs exactly the same way---stacked over the center of my bindings. I ski lots of powder and would not even consider leaning back---I can't even imagine doing that. It must be incredibly hard on your legs.QUOTE]

i should clarify what i mean by "sitting in the back seat" . . .
first, my skis have a lot to do with it. i can't remember the dimentions exactly but they're about 109-71-95 ish and 176 cm long (they're an elan model 2 or 3 seasons back). they're also softer . . . good for carving, and general cruising, but not a powder ski (want new skis!).

there are some days when the snow is up to my bum and not superduper light, thus, to keep myself from doing a nose dive, i've gotta lean back a little (and, yes, it is hard work, and yes, my legs are really strong now )

i comletely agree with you in regards to being stacked -- hips, knees, ankles-- and i also agree with having a good flex in boots (this yr i've been skiing in AT boots -- very soft, and my alpine boots are just a few hairs stiffer) . . . so far none of these things have been an issue for me.

i think i might need new skis to better suit conditions and my demands!! :D

 

[altagirl]

I will agree - there's powder skiing technique, and then there's really DEEP - like waist to chest deep - powder technique, and when it's 3' deep or more you really do have to at least flex your feet (and probably (GASP) lean back a bit) to try and keep your toes up or you'll just get stuck or flip when it flattens out (if it's steep it isn't an issue). How often are you really skiing 3' of powder? Almost never, so as a general rule, it's safe to say that in powder, you don't lean back. (And most people hesitate to say it at all because then you've got beginner powder skiers trying to ski on their tails in powder that they should just be skiing normally in, and you don't want to lead them down the wrong path).

And that doesn't really have anything to do with my dislike of center mounted skis. They don't feel right to me. I don't have a problem staying out of the backseat on normally mounted skis, so push the mount forward and I'm suddenly getting punished by the skis for keeping my weight forward - the result is that I feel like I have to be on edge of the backseat to get the skis to carve. Not at all what I'm interested in.

 

[volklgirl]

I'm with Altagirl. Binding forward skis feel hooky and odd to me.

Ankle flex is very important in a proper ski stance for women and I think it gets overlooked too often. Men can fake it because their center of mass is in their chest area so they can just bend at the waist and have their center of mass over or ahead of their feet. A woman's center of mass is in their rump area so it's naturally behind their feet. Too-stiff boots or bending at the waist or knees just compounds this, leaving women perpetually in the back seat. By flexing deeply at the ankles first, then 'settling' the remaining joints, women can bring their center of mass up over the feet where it belongs. Skiing that way can be an odd feeling the first time.....like your feet are hanging back behind you, but you soon get used to it. I think that in general, moving the binding forward just masks the true problem by moving the center of mass over the center of the ski, but it still doesn't move the center of mass over the feet.

 

[Pequenita]

All I know is that the first time I skied any sort of real powder, I had to decrease my forward lean to not feel off balance the entire time. I think it may have had to do with different acceleration of the skis on hardpack/ice vs. powder. Perhaps it's more indicative of my not getting the center of mass over my feet, rather than the ski.

 

[altagirl]

All I know is that the first time I skied any sort of real powder, I had to decrease my forward lean to not feel off balance the entire time. I think it may have had to do with different acceleration of the skis on hardpack/ice vs. powder. Perhaps it's more indicative of my not getting the center of mass over my feet, rather than the ski.

I think that's really the problem that most people have. Powder skiing requires a lot of fore/aft adjustments because it's rarely consistent - kind of like spring slush skiing, where your skis aren't moving over consistent snow and they speed up and slow down on you. Leaning back is definitely not the answer, but you do have to learn to react to those sudden changes without your feet shooting out from under you or going over the bars. It's a lot of core balance.

 

[abc]

I think altagirl nail it. Powder is soft, not firm. So the "feedback" process is more subtle. Minor mistakes in balance which can be easily detected and corrected on groomed surface are delayed or "soften" so by the time you realize you're off balance, it's too late to correct.

A lot of "powder regulars" advocate longer skis. So that even if you're a bit off balance for or aft, you're not having a face plant every 2 turns! Is it a crutch? Some say it is. But given 90% of skiers only get to do real powder 10% of their skiing days, a crutch maybe better than not able to enjoy it at all.

I suspect the effect of any "forwarding" of mounting binding on powder planks are totally undetectable, since there's no "carving" on powder anyway.

 

[Gloria]

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[lil mountain girl]

thanks for the input divas!

and yes, i'm a VERY lucky diva to be where i am :D
i enjoy every centemeter that falls, i'll tell you that!!!!

one of the other reasons for my wonderings about centre mounting stemmed from a friend of mine, who skied on centre mounted skis in lots of pow . . . he ended up with knee strain problems.
the physio suspected the centre mounting shifted how he skied (ie: too much "pulling back") and thus the contributing factor to injury.

has anyone heard of this being an issue?
maybe it also has to do with weight distibution of guys vs. ladies?

 

[pinto]

....
one of the other reasons for my wonderings about centre mounting stemmed from a friend of mine, who skied on centre mounted skis in lots of pow . . . he ended up with knee strain problems.
the physio suspected the centre mounting shifted how he skied (ie: too much "pulling back") and thus the contributing factor to injury.

has anyone heard of this being an issue?
maybe it also has to do with weight distibution of guys vs. ladies?

I can totally see this. I have posted before that I moved back the bindings on my Queen Attivas, and I'm much happier with them. Apparently I have the opposite problem of being in the back seat: I am too far forward. My ankles and knees are very flexy; the last guide I skied with used the term "rubberband." (Part of this is that my boots aren't stiff enough for the skiing I do; they are a high-end rec boot, ie, step below racing, but I was told that I'm overflexing them, especially on steeps). The bootfitter told me my cuff is too low. I may go to men's boots next, but that's a different story.

All this, and the fact that I'm skiing on skis that are pretty short compared to my height, though not necessarily my weight, has resulted in some pretty good fore-aft balance. ;)

As far as weight distribution ... maybe so. My weight is definitely greater in the butt area, but I'm not terribly heavy, and my legs are quite long. So I'm not sure that I'm typical vis a vis women and their normal center of gravity. I'm certainly not like a guy, because I have no upper body, so I can't compare that way, either.

Now, this is just in soft or variable snow. I like the forward mount on my Supersports for the groomers.