So how are the acquisitions working out?

[marzNC]

Still, that doesn’t change my concern about Vail.

Understood. Just didn't want people to get confused about Alterra.

I tend to pay more attention to the people in charge than stock prices. Perhaps because I joined a start up company with 40 people when I finished grad school that went public very successfully six years later. Grew a lot. There were a few decisions made that Wall Street didn't understand and the stock dropped at a later date. The Board opted to take the company private. I don't remember details because it was a few years after I retired. Some years later the company went public a second time. Quite successful as of 2018, which is about 35 years after it was founded.

 

[mustski]

I am not surprised to see that the primary losses were in the Northern California and Utah markets. Alterra is particularly competitive in those markets. Vail missed the boat when they didn't fight Mammoth for BBMR. We are small but we are a perk to those buying big mountain passes in California. LA Basin, OC, San Diego, Inland Empire, Lucerne Valley, Palm Desert - those are all major markets that can access Big Bear for a day trip. Mammoth or Tahoe isn't much of a difference from those locations. Everyone who used to chose the Epic pass did so for the multi resort option. The Icon pass is now nudging them to switch because they gain BBMR - a free perk. I would think Utah is the same deal. Most skiers would rather have Altabird and Deer Valley over Park City and Canyons and they get Solitude as a daily season pass. Brighton is just a perk.

It think Vail is well aware that they need to make some deals in those markets and will be competitive in the future. I suspect it's just a blip due to the introduction of the new pass.

 

[marzNC]

Vail missed the boat when they didn't fight Mammoth for BBMR. We are small but we are a perk to those buying big mountain passes in California. LA Basin, OC, San Diego, Inland Empire, Lucerne Valley, Palm Desert - those are all major markets that can access Big Bear for a day trip.

Interesting.

The other region where Alterra has access to a major market with no competition from a VR resort is the MidA/SE because of Snowshoe in WV. Folks from FL, Atlanta, SC, NC, VA, and DC/Baltimore make the drive to Snowshoe for ski weekends. Given that Snowshoe is almost all resort lodging and few people live close enough for a day trip, those people are certainly like to take a trip out west sooner rather than later based on Ikon.

VR opted to go after the midwest market (Chicago, Detroit, Minn./St. Paul). Would be nice to know the split between the MCP/Ikon and Epic in that region. I've run into a lot of midwest retirees at MCP locations in recent years. Most get senior rates so don't bother with any multi-resort pass, but it's clear where they prefer to spend 4-6 weeks of the winter. But could be just as many retirees at VR resorts. I haven't been to Tahoe since VR bought there and haven't even skied at VR resorts in Colorado for assorted reasons.

 

[mustski]

The Tahoe issue is this simple ... major market folks who don't ski often were interested in something in driving distance for a week and a vacation elsewhere for another week. They did not really care if it was Heavenly/Kirkwood/Northstar or Squaw/Alpine or ...?. The actual mountain did not matter to them. What does matter is the opportunity to use the pass twice and go two different places. Previously, the California pass was only a draw to those folks who already view either BBMR or Mammoth as their home mountains. Now, suddenly, the Ikon covers it all. Vail needs to buy something that serves the day trippers (perk to compete with BBMR) so they can pull back folks from those major markets. Keep you eyes on Mountain High or Snow Valley or - if they are willing to invest in snowmaking - Mt. Baldy.

 

[MilkyWookiee]

I skied okemo this past weekend and am an epic local passholder. Been skiing okemo since 2006. They ditched the RFID gates in the lift lines in exchange for handheld scanning devices which are definitely slower, they changed the POS system in the lodges without adequately training cashiers, the discounts on ski with a friend tix seem minimal, and their opening this year was definitely delayed. Even their daily snow reports seem less personal and I also noticed a couple discrepancies between the open terrain reported and actually open. They also took down a bunch of videos from their YouTube channel (including one I was in!). Then they go and post online how they're going to invest in the sugar house and summit lodges. Those are the LAST places I would like to see money go. I'd rather see it pumped into things like mountain ops, ski school, and even lodging on the mountain

 

[marzNC]

What I noticed in Nov was the contrast between the resort magazines put out by Okemo and Killington. Don't know what Okemo used to do. The Okemo magazine for 2018-19 is essentially a big package of ads. Not much content that can't be found elsewhere. The articles in the Killington magazine were far more interesting.

They ditched the RFID gates in the lift lines in exchange for handheld scanning devices which are definitely slower, they changed the POS system in the lodges without adequately training cashiers,

VR designed custom RFID software quite a while ago. The RFID chips are slightly different so hand scanners can work from a great distance than a reader in a gate. EpicMix is very much part of VR's brand. Guess they didn't want to wait a year before bringing Okemo on line.

 

[marymack]

I am not super close to the situation but I know Stowe was dealing with similar issues regarding snow reporting as it sounds like they were having at Okemo. People were very upset that the Stowe website was changed to the corporate Vail style and did away with the person giving written snow reports each day in favor of a mechanized system on top of the mountain. There were some bugs with the system including under reporting snow fall, which made quite a few Stowe locals mad when they missed powder days because they didn't think the mountain got much based on the automated system and the daily report wasn't posted until mid-morning.

 

[ski diva]

Article in Powder.com about Afton Alps: Vail Bought My Hometown Hill. Here's What Happened.

 

[Abbi]

This is my takeaway from the Powder.com article: "So if you're worried your favorite resort is next on some behemoth's list, my advice is: don't be. Just keep skiing, and if that big buyout comes, enjoy the benefits big money and the competition between the two mega conglomerates brings with it."

Let's face it most of us don't seek change and less so when we were (mostly, at least) happy with things as they were. I'm an Okemo skier for a few years and do miss the daily personalized report. Not that it still wasn't hype, it was our hype. The weekday passholders are already bemoaning the certain loss of our beloved pass. Such is life. The past two years I have also purchased the MAXX pass and this year the IKON pass. So next year I likely will have Epic local and not need to buy two passes. I have employee friends who aren't as happy with the changes, and others who think they have a better deal now. I can tell the mountain is short on employees right now. I hope that can be fixed.

I'm going to remain optimistic and watch as the new to us season progresses.

 

[Marigee]

Peak Resorts seems to be doing a fine job at the Snow Time resorts.

 

[marzNC]

Article in Powder.com about Afton Alps: Vail Bought My Hometown Hill. Here's What Happened.

Interesting . . . Joe Yasis was GM of Afton Alps when VR bought it in 2012. He stayed on and seemed pretty happy with the transition. However, he moved on in 2018 after 25 years at Afton. He is the new GM at Wild Mountain in MN for the 2018-19 season. Yasis seems to be a hands-on type, he is a member of PSIA and Nat. Ski Patrol. Could simply be that he prefers working at a family-owned ski area. Not that anything is wrong at Afton.

New owner of Afton Alps ski area outlines plans for expansion, upgrades - Aug 2013

Afton Alps Makes Its “Epic” Transformation After Vail Resorts Acquisition - Nov 2015

Wild Mountain gets new general manager - Sept 2018

 

[marzNC]

Just used my Ikon pass at Loon, which is only a partner and owned by Boyne Resorts not Alterra. Loon isn't as up on lift pass technology like Sunday River or Killington. Have to get a sticky day ticket that goes on a wire wicket after showing an Ikon pass. Didn't ask if they could produce an Ikon card or not (I got mine at Killington in Nov).

 

[Jilly]

When my pass was caught in the mail strike here, Alterra said only Alterra resorts could print me a pass. So for me, Tremblant or Blue Mountain in Collingwood could do that.

I heard last weekend about some people having to go and get a "day ticket" with their Ikon pass. I'm happy to say that Tremblant is not one of them. Show and scan your pass and go.

 

[marzNC]

Alterra said only Alterra resorts could print me a pass.

Interesting. Killington is owned by Powdr. But recently implemented RFID. Perhaps that's a factor.

I heard last weekend about some people having to go and get a "day ticket" with their Ikon pass. I'm happy to say that Tremblant is not one of them. Show and scan your pass and go.

Apparently a few people have had to do paperwork at Snowshoe even though they were mailed an Ikon pass. In one case, husband's Ikon worked but the wife had to sign a waiver. Can be a pain at Snowshoe because of how parking is set up since it's an upside-down resort with the "village" all along the top of the ridge.

 

[newboots]

Vail is enraging locals {at Okemo] right and left. They have threatened to cancel the Innkeeper’s race, wherein has-been ski bums got free tickets, raced, and more than made up for the free tickets with their bar tab.

They pulled back on the children’s after school ski program (um, do we want them to grow up to be skiers?) and when they relented, said the kids couldn’t use their rental skis. On a Tuesday afternoon? Your little skis will all be in use?

They stopped Okemo’s practice of giving employees free tickets to share with friends and family.

They did something good, though. Renamed a trail (was it Defiance? I think?) “Mueller’s Run.”

 

[Abbi]

Vail is enraging locals right and left. They have threatened to cancel the Innkeeper’s race, wherein has-been ski bums got free tickets, raced, and more than made up for the free tickets with their bar tab.

They pulled back on the children’s after school ski program (um, do we want them to grow up to be skiers?) and when they relented, said the kids couldn’t use their rental skis. On a Tuesday afternoon? Your little skis will all be in use?

They stopped Okemo’s practice of giving employees free tickets to share with friends and family.

They did something good, though. Renamed a trail (was it Defiance? I think?) “Mueller’s Run.”

Yep, I had heard most of that. And it’s not likely to change. New owners have their own business model. My weekday pass is going to go by the wayside certainly. And the senior passes.

I miss not having a local ski reporter who actually knows what’s going on locally and knows which runs really are open or not, or groomed or not. But that’s not going to change either, most likely!

As far as that renamed trail? My group refers to it as ‘the run formerly known as Defiance!

 

[ski diva]

They pulled back on the children’s after school ski program (um, do we want them to grow up to be skiers?) and when they relented, said the kids couldn’t use their rental skis. On a Tuesday afternoon? Your little skis will all be in use?

There was a lot of pushback on this. From the Chester Telegraph:

Vail Resorts has rescinded its announced price increase for those local families on the Federal Free and Reduced Lunch Program whose children want to participate in school ski and snowboard programs at Okemo Mountain, according to those close to the situation. The Chester Telegraph reported the initial rate-hike story on Tuesday.

The rate raise — to $100 — will remain for children not in the federal lunch program. This amounts to a $19 to $20 increase over last year for the children attending Cavendish Town and Chester-Andover elementary schools.

The rates for families qualifying for the federal lunch program will return to last year’s rates of $55 at Cavendish and $53 at Chester-Andover. The program for each school runs half a day per week for eight weeks, weather permitting, and begins at the end of January.


For the whole piece, go here.

 

[Christy]

Alterra just instituted dynamic pricing at Crystal. I know this is the norm other places but in October Crystal had assured people they weren't moving to this (potentially confusing) model. And holiday prices are $99, which I know isn't crazy compared to many tourist destination resorts but is the most we've ever seen here in WA.

I was just trying to see how much Stevens tickets are and there is no simple calendar to see--you have to enter each individual date to see how much your ticket will be.

 

[marzNC]

Any comments now that the 2018-19 season is well underway?

Post #1

The past few years have seen an enormous number of acquisitions in the ski industry. I did a blog post about this in June, in case you're interested or just want to get up to speed.

So I've been wondering: For those of you whose resorts have been swallowed up by Vail or Alterra or Boyne or Peak or Powdr, or who work at a recently acquired resort, what do you think? Has it been a positive or a negative experience?

 

[MilkyWookiee]

I have a lot of strong feelings about what Vail has done at Okemo and, short of the value of the epic passes, none of them are positive.
1) pricing is absolutely absurd. $112 for weekday tix?! Plus they increased food prices. I think it's just a western mentality that skiing is a major vacation, vs in the east it's a lot of day trips and weekend trips, often planned last minute waiting for good conditions
2) customer service. I'm actually conflicted here. When I've dealt with Vail directly I've had positive experiences. But through Okemo it's been awful. The biggest thing to note here is that I was told by multiple customer service representatives that they are not offering a discount on the women's clinics for season passholders (the clinic cost includes lift access).
3) elimination of volunteers. I understand that this could be an insurance liability issue. That said, the safety ambassadors and mountain ambassadors played a huge role in making Okemo a stand-out resort for families and skiers of all levels

I'm strongly leaning toward the peak pass next year, as their pricing is much lower, and they have many resorts that are closer to home for me. Would love to hear from anyone whose home mountain is owned by peak! I don't see them discussed a lot