Requesting a more challenging lesson?

[SummerRunner]

I’m doing a multi-week women’s ski program at a resort in my area and the first meeting was today. I’ve done a similar program the past couple years at Alta, and they’ve always done a great job sorting me into a group of skiers with similar abilities/goals, and generally I trust ski instructors more than my own self-assessment of what my level is. I also know that it’s typical to work on skills on relatively easy terrain (makes sense, can’t practice new things when survival skiing). However, in previous years I’ve learned that for me, one of the most valuable parts of lessons is taking on scary-for-me terrain with a group of friends and an instructor I trust. And given that goal I felt really out of sync with the group I was placed with. Everything felt way too easy (the terrain, the drills, everything) to the point that I was pretty bored and frustrated, especially when it became clear we would ONLY be doing drills on the easiest blue groomers, not then trying to apply those skills to harder terrain. The other students did not seem interested in skiing harder terrain. I talked to the instructor and I’m going switch to a more aggressive group next week, but now I’m second-guessing myself. Is it okay to want to be challenged at lessons? I feel incredibly weird asking to move groups (surely the instructor would have moved me if I were that out of place?) but it honestly felt like punishment being stuck on a groomer on the first powder day of the season when I desperately wanted to build more confidence on steep bumps. But then again, even the best skier in the world can always benefit from form drills on an easy run, and better fundamentals will also help my off-trail skiing ability, so who am I to want to ski harder stuff? Am I being that egotistical jerk who thinks they are “too good” for the fundamentals they are sorely lacking?

 

[scandium]

Trust yourself. You sound as if you are willing to be honest with yourself about your needs. The fact you doubt yourself suggests more self awareness than any "egotistical jerk" would have.

Fact: You were bored and felt out of sync. Chances are, you won't get many benefits from a lesson that makes you feel that way.
Fact 2: You know FOR YOU, you need to be pushed to progress and you have asked for that. If you're wrong or the skill gap between the groups is too great, presumably you can go back down.

 

[Jilly]

As a friend of mine says....you do you!
Move up, see what happens.

 

[snoWYmonkey]

Having taught many women specific camps at a challenging resort, my first 2 thoughts are as follows.

1. The fact that there was no push back to moving you up a group means you are most likely technically able to. I have had a few instances where the request was not appropriate because the camper was fearless and fast but had zero control and thought that ending each pitch with a crash still made her the best in the group as the other ladies were awed by her fearlessness. This does not at all sound like you.

2. It is your holiday and your definition of fun that matters. We had one returning camper that the other women would be confused about as to why she got to be in a more advanced group. She never lost control, never fell, never got scared in big steep bumps. It was not always the cleanest looking form coming down, but she loved the challenge and did not slow down the group nor pose a threat to herself or other skiers. Possibly, her skills may have benefitted from being held back, but her smiles at the end of the day proved that she did belong in a group that pushed it harder.

I am glad you asked for and are being honored with what you need and want out of the camp.

So many assumptions go into creating groups. The pre camp questionnaires and quick glance and discussion with each participant can fail to give the whole story we need to make the right placement. Too much to post here. Another factor is group sizes, and sometimes there just has to be a split that will be less than ideal.

Ironically I had the technically best skier in one of my groups almost quit the first morning as she was crying so hard. As a Mt Tremblant skier she had never skied powder and she was so distraught as she kept falling. We all could see she was the most solid of the group and tons of encouragement from the gals kept her where she belonged.

You have clearly experienced that support in the face of being challenged before on the hill, so at the very least give that next group up a go and I suspect you will have a better experience. I would hope that you could ride alone with your coach for an honest conversation if you are still questioning your request.

 

[Jilly]

I was in a Roxy snowcamp at WB years ago. At lunch the first day, the instructor asked me if I wanted to move up. Ah, no. I'm happy here.

I knew that the afternoon would tire me out as we were going to do trees. And I told her I wanted to watch her teach a HP lesson.

You need to advocate for yourself.

 

[Chuyi]

I learned as a a middle aged adult so I will never be an expert skier. Sometimes it's not about getting down the hill. We all see skiers making it down black runs with no control. Be curious ask the instructor what drills/techniques you need to work on to graduate to the next group & focus on those. Sometimes being strongest skier in a group helps you focus on learning instead of trying to keep up with a stronger group.

 

[SummerRunner]

Thanks all for the comments! I’ll see how things go next week. @Chuyi I definitely hear you, that’s what I’m worried about. The instructor didn’t really have any specific suggestions (she did for the other group members) other than calling out “Great job” several times. When we did the mini bumps and were waiting for the rest of the group to catch up she just asked how the run felt and my answer was always that it felt pretty easy and effortless, and she said yes, but she has to make sure the whole group feels comfortable before we work on anything harder. And that’s when I asked if I could maybe join a more aggressive group and she said sure, she’d talk to the lead instructor. Worst case like everyone said I can just switch back down if the next group up is too much! I’m in the second-to-highest group right now and I’m wondering if there’s just a huge gap between my current group and the next group up. Based on what my group instructor told me last year I’m a very solid level 7 getting close to level 8. The group I got placed with felt like what my group was like a few years ago when I was more like level 6. But maybe the next group up is all strong 8s or 9s, which is indeed way above my level.

 

[edelweissmaedl]

Speaking for a friend that started lessons last week. It sounds like the groups are more set already, but I know for her the group was split in two for Week 1 and it's going to get split again (so 4 groups) for Week 2, now that the instructors saw everyone ski more. Maybe the program has strategies like that to address smoothing out levels as well.

Don't feel bad about asking for a better fit. @marzNC always emphasizes that a group switch is very feasible for Taos Ski Weeks. Knowing that is a totally normal component there makes me think it has to be more common that you might think at other mountains too!

 

[marzNC]

@diymom has experience with how groups get set up for the multi-week women's program at Wachusett.

My experience is that instructors, even pretty experienced ones, make decisions for students they don't already know based on two factors: 1) what they see in someone's skiing, and 2) what someone tells them about goals and past lesson experience. It's worth while to over communicate early on in a multi-lesson program about goals (large and small), even if you're not quite sure what to say. Once you start talking, hopefully the instructor will ask useful questions to better understand what you would like to get out of the program. The better the instructor and/or supervisor gets to know you, the more they can help.

 

[diymom]

In pretty much every multi day women's clinic I've done (Wachusett, Snowbird, Eldora, Taos) the clinic director skis around between groups the first morning observing group dynamics, level compatibility, etc. There have been times someone is pulled out and escorted to a new group right then and there, and also times where someone gets shuffled at lunch or the start of the next lesson based either on discussion between instructor and director or request by the participant. It must be difficult to group people from self-described ability, and some reshuffling is to be expected. And even with observation, getting the group dynamics right still doesn't always work. (Unfortunately that was the case with my group at Eldora last year. Most of the other women were perfectly happy with guided skiing and minimal instruction. Not that I love drills, but I know that drills serve a purpose. And more feedback than "your're doing great" is welcome too. There had been two groups at a similar level, and in hindsight I wish I had been in the other one. Live and learn. )

If this is indeed a case of kind of being between groups as they were set up this morning with a larger skill difference between them, the ideal resolution might be if there are a few in the next higher group that feel they are being challenged a little too much for their comfort zone, or mood, or knees, or whatever, and would like to step back a smidge and create a new group with you.

Let us know how it goes in your next lesson.

 

[SummerRunner]

The grouping and evaluation process was honestly fairly chaotic. It was snowing heavily, only a few runs were open and they were crowded, and I heard the instructors say several times they were having a hard time seeing anyone. I had also requested to do the program with a close friend who is also close in skiing ability to me. We were placed in the same level but with different instructors, and I would have been thrilled doing what her group did that day (I tried to just switch to that group but was told it was full). We’ll see, I guess. Overall I’m regretting switching from Alta Ladies Day, which is the program I’ve done in the past. It’s also partially on me before the program sounds too bad — Alta doesn’t distinguish blacks and double blacks but this place does. So I suspect when I wrote that I wasn’t confident on “steep black terrain” I should have written “double black terrain.” And they understandably interpreted it as uncomfortable on normal black terrain I got put with the most timid high intermediate/low advanced group when the hardest-charging of that level would have fit better.

 

[diymom]

So your friend's group was skiing slightly more challenging runs? Fingers crossed in that case that someone in your friend's group might want to swap out to your more mellow group.

 

[SummerRunner]

Yes. We were doing edging/release and falling leaf drills on the easiest blue groomer on the mountain (nothing against falling leaf! I do it on my own a fair amount. But that’s pretty much all we did, other than a very easy and very short bump run that everyone except me seemed to struggle on). Friend’s group was working on similar skills of engaging and releasing the ski but doing it in some steeper ungroomed blue terrain that seemed really nice.

 

[snoWYmonkey]

Sad they split you up. We often get and try to honor those requests with the caveat that the group will be selected at the skill of the less aggressive skier. Clearly not the case here.

Assessment paper forms are great when staff take the time to really go through them. The on snow component of creating groups is probably even more painful for the coaches than the athletes. Especially when changes do have to happen later. With full groups i have had to bump ladies two groups up before and it worked.

Creating new groups can be limited by resource allocation aka staff. Even had a 2 person camp group where one was thrilled to have a semi private but the other said she really wanted more in her group and they had to be squeezed into two different now huge groups.

Not sure what went haywire for you in this scenario but it feels like a couple of requests were not honored....

 

[SummerRunner]

Yeah, I think a few things were going wrong. They seemed to be short staffed — I think the groups are usually 5-6 and they were 8-9, and the chaos level suggested someone got hurt or dropped out at the last minute or something. Hopefully next week is better and the next group up isn’t too far out of my comfort zone! Or someone moves out of my friend’s group!

 

[snoWYmonkey]

Yikes! Those numbers are larger than I am used to. 6 is our usual max number. The firm and sparse conditions have led to a lot of injured staff. Also a ton of bugs going around. On the flip side, many resorts have less business than usual. I hope it does all get sorted out.

 

[Jilly]

I did an instructor clinic back in December. The head course conductor came to me and asked...mild, medium or spicy? Knowing what and wasn't open, I said "spicy". The next day they didn't ask that type of question and I'm not sure how some of the participants got their L2. I was definitely skiing above them. Even the instructor commented on it.

Ski offs are still the best sorting tool. But if you can't see your skier, that's gonna be hard.
Advocate for you!! You do you!

 

[Pequenita]

It does sounds like a staffing issue and maybe something going on in the initial intake. The camp that I've done multiple times does initial sorting based on self assessment of ability and also asks the skier whether they want something like @Jilly's "mild, medium, spicy," reflecting how much "challenge" are you interested in. Once the skiers are in their initial groups, there is a ski off and more sorting. It sounds like it'd be difficult to get the groups "right" without an adequate number of instructors, but I think the ski off does refine things a little. I once tried to sandbag because I think the "spiciness" question was no longer on the questionnaire, but I was outed during the ski off. Alas. I would at least tell your instructor what you're interested in doing - like a goal maybe?

 

[tartegnin]

Order of operations: safety fun skills. If you can move up and ski safely and know you will have more fun, the skill building will follow!

 

[rach93]

I’m doing a multi-week women’s ski program at a resort in my area and the first meeting was today. I’ve done a similar program the past couple years at Alta, and they’ve always done a great job sorting me into a group of skiers with similar abilities/goals, and generally I trust ski instructors more than my own self-assessment of what my level is. I also know that it’s typical to work on skills on relatively easy terrain (makes sense, can’t practice new things when survival skiing). However, in previous years I’ve learned that for me, one of the most valuable parts of lessons is taking on scary-for-me terrain with a group of friends and an instructor I trust. And given that goal I felt really out of sync with the group I was placed with. Everything felt way too easy (the terrain, the drills, everything) to the point that I was pretty bored and frustrated, especially when it became clear we would ONLY be doing drills on the easiest blue groomers, not then trying to apply those skills to harder terrain. The other students did not seem interested in skiing harder terrain. I talked to the instructor and I’m going switch to a more aggressive group next week, but now I’m second-guessing myself. Is it okay to want to be challenged at lessons? I feel incredibly weird asking to move groups (surely the instructor would have moved me if I were that out of place?) but it honestly felt like punishment being stuck on a groomer on the first powder day of the season when I desperately wanted to build more confidence on steep bumps. But then again, even the best skier in the world can always benefit from form drills on an easy run, and better fundamentals will also help my off-trail skiing ability, so who am I to want to ski harder stuff? Am I being that egotistical jerk who thinks they are “too good” for the fundamentals they are sorely lacking?

Group lessons can be tricky to manage from an instructor perspective, especially if there are different skill groups within the lesson.

However, ideally that would be identified early in the lesson and group should be split according to ability. Either breaking up the group with multiple instructors or having different ability levels focus on different drills.

A ski lesson should always be fun! If it felt like punishment, something is wrong. If you are looking for a more personally tailored lesson I would suggest taking a private lesson.

I think you made the right call voicing your concerns.