Progressing from smearing to carving turns?

[tinymoose]

Certainly not common. But at the same time, Liberty in south central PA has a very good weekend program for women. Also Elk and Windham. Really depends on the Ski School Director.

I was thinking of Jack Frost or Blue whose women's programs are primarily weekday things. Or the women's thing Bear Creek does in conjunction with Buckman's is almost always on a weekday too. Elk is really too far to be local to me. Or Windham.

 

[Obrules15]

I feel like this is a really common thing with the women's classes around here locally. Certainly not tailored to where people who work M-F can participate.

Hmmm, it's almost as if they are really only interested in women skiers who have families that ski, and have made the choice to be stay-at-home moms.

 

[marzNC]

Hmmm, it's almost as if they are really only interested in women skiers who have families that ski, and have made the choice to be stay-at-home moms.

Well, from a business standpoint a working woman who buys a season pass and brings a brown-bag lunch is not really going to help the bottom line that much. Especially if they are only coming on busy weekends when an instructor could be doing something else. In contrast to a mother who brings a kid or two or three (their own or also a friend's kid(s)), and is more likely to be on the lookout for other families with kids the same age who ski. Perhaps mostly on weekends, but as the kids get older night sessions or perhaps the race team comes into play.

I spent far more money at Massanutten when my daughter was learning ages 4-12 than I do currently when I'm going with adult friends or just skiing solo because I have a season pass. We often brought along one of her friends and their parent(s). Didn't succeed in creating a ski nut but those friends spent money on ski school and other things at the resort over the years. Before about 4th grade, there was times I let her skip school for day so that we could do a long weekend with one midweek ski day.

I think the issue of women's clinics varies by regional and resort. Applying pressure by communicating to the Ski School Director might make a difference. Can't hurt to try.

 

[Skier31]

Get 5 people together and propose a time.
Show them it is worth their time.

 

[Am716]

I read through most of this post and a lot of the drills that were mentioned I have been doing with my instructors. However I still have a REALLY hard time carving. I work with a race coach (not on racing but just skiing skills) and he has said it’s concerning how little edge angle I am able to get. I am also told I am very impatient with turning and won’t let the skis turn, instead of force them into the turn. I am beginning to understand this more and can get nice tracks down pretty flat terrain but resort back to forcing my turns and smearing when it comes to unfavorable conditions or steeper terrain.

Any advice for forcing patience and getting some better edge angle/carving?! I do railroad tracks. I have done the wedge drill where you flatten one ski to feel what edging feels like. I have done J turn after J turn after J turn to try and get on edge sooner (I am told, and my tracks show that I usually get on edge wayyy too late).

 

[Jilly]

You have to learn to trust your edges. That was the big step for me. To get more edge angle you are going to need to move more laterally to the inside of the arc. Hip in the snow!!

I like to do long big rollerblade turns. That might help with you forcing the turn. Let the sidecut do the work.

 

[liquidfeet]

....I still have a REALLY hard time carving.
....I am very impatient with turning ....force them into the turn
....unfavorable conditions or steeper terrain.
....Any advice for forcing patience and getting some better edge angle/carving?!
....I do railroad tracks.
....I have done the wedge drill where you flatten one ski to feel what edging feels like.
....I have done J turn after J turn....I usually get on edge wayyy too late.

@Am716, to carve comfortably on any terrain, you'll need to work your way through several steps.

1. First, you'll need to override the old habit of pivoting the skis as you start the new turn. This is the rushing part of what your instructors are telling you. It sounds like you always pivot the skis to point down and across the hill as you initiate your turns (most people do). Replacing this habit with tipping the skis and waiting for them to turn is in itself quite difficult to do. That's because so many people can't feel themselves pivot the skis. It's not so much fear or lack of knowledge causing the blockage, but the strong persistence of the old pivoting habit that keeps it in place and destroys any potential for a carved turn. Know your enemy! It's the pivot.

2. Carving makes the skis go fast in the direction they are pointed. The metal edges slice their way over the snow, and the tails follow the tips, scribing a thin line in the snow. This is FAST. That's why fear creeps in, and when fear is there, the pivot creeps back in. Carving speed can be shocking and frightening at first, so people bail and pivot the skis to point across the hill when the carve starts. So learning to carve needs to be done on stupid-flat terrain, with barely any pitch. Learning to carve on green pitches is difficult; go to the bunny slopes instead.

3. When on that beginner terrain, head straight down the hill doing railroad tracks. This is done by tipping both skis together starting with the ankles. You say you do railroad tracks. Great! Keep doing that. Do it again and again, until it's easy to get pencil-thin lines in the snow without wobbling and falling. When the speed gets too fast, abort and start over. You'll have little to no speed control, and that's OK. Just focus on tipping the skis and not pivoting, leaving those lines in the snow. Let the skis turn you. Once you figure out how to tip both skis with your ankles, without pivoting, and to balance on those two tipped skis, and to let the skis turn you, you'll still gain speed and get going faster than you are used to even on nearly flat terrain. That's OK; just stop, then start over.

4. Once you can make the carve happen on flattish terrain with those tiny railroad track angles, you'll need to learn to carve rounder, more completed turns. Completed turns are your first method for doing speed control. Completing your turns to almost point uphill will keep you from gaining speed as you head toward the lift. Teach yourself to shorten the inside leg more, bringing its knee up to your chest. Morph those railroad tracks into completed turns this way. On the bunny slope. This short-leg-knee-up-to-chest will give you higher angles, and will help the skis come all the way around. You'll need to work on balancing on the outside ski as you shorten that leg, or you'll fall over. Focus on letting the outside leg hold your weight while the inside leg is shortening. NO PIVOTING! Your turns may be pretty wide, so you'll need empty slopes to learn this on. Do this on the bunny slope when it's empty, and progress to empty low-pitch greens. Your goal is to not gain speed as you get lower on the hill. You'll still be going very fast in each turn, just not gaining overall speed as you finish the run. Carving is inherently fast.

5. A second way to do speed control is to shorten the radius of these fast, carved turns. This involves bringing that inside knee up to your chest faster. This will get your skis on their downhill edges before they point down the hill. Consider this an advanced skill. It can help you not be dangerous to self and others on blue-green terrain. Carve only on beginner and green pitches until you've gained this advanced skill.

6. This whole progression assumes certain things about your gear and your snow. Are you skiing on midwest/eastern hardpack, or western natural snow? What skis are you on? Are they wide, rockered powder skis, park twintips, or frontside carving skis with camber and short radius built into them?

7. You want to carve. Is this because you seek speed, or because you want to start racing? Or is there another reason?

 

[Mary Tee]

@Am716, to carve comfortably on any terrain, you'll need to work your way through several steps.

1. First, you'll need to override the old habit of pivoting the skis as you start the new turn. This is the rushing part of what your instructors are telling you. It sounds like you always pivot the skis to point down and across the hill as you initiate your turns (most people do). Replacing this habit with tipping the skis and waiting for them to turn is in itself quite difficult to do. That's because so many people can't feel themselves pivot the skis. It's not so much fear or lack of knowledge causing the blockage, but the strong persistence of the old pivoting habit that keeps it in place and destroys any potential for a carved turn. Know your enemy! It's the pivot.

2. Carving makes the skis go fast in the direction they are pointed. They ride the metal edge and the tails follow the tips, scribing a thin line in the snow. This is FAST. That's why fear creeps in, and when fear is there, the pivot creeps back in. Carving speed can be shocking and frightening at first, so people bail and pivot the skis to point across the hill when the carve starts. So learning to carve needs to be done on stupid-flat terrain, with barely any pitch. Learning to carve on green pitches is difficult; go to the bunny slopes instead.

3. When on that beginner terrain, head straight down the hill doing railroad tracks. This is done by tipping both skis together starting with the ankles. You say you do railroad tracks. Great! Keep doing that. Do it again and again, until it's easy to get pencil-thin lines in the snow without wobbling and falling. When the speed gets too fast, abort and start over. You'll have little to no speed control, and that's OK. Just focus on tipping the skis and not pivoting, leaving those lines in the snow. Let the skis turn you. Once you figure out how to tip both skis with your ankles, without pivoting, and to balance on those two tipped skis, and to let the skis turn you, you'll still gain speed and get going faster than you are used to even on nearly flat terrain. That's OK; just stop, then start over.

4. Once you can make the carve happen on flattish terrain with those tiny railroad track angles, you'll need to learn to carve rounder, more completed turns. Completed turns are your first method for doing speed control. Completing your turns to almost point uphill will keep you from gaining speed as you head toward the lift. Teach yourself to shorten the inside leg more, bringing its knee up to your chest. Morph those railroad tracks into completed turns this way. On the bunny slope. This short-leg-knee-up-to-chest will give you higher angles, and will help the skis come all the way around. You'll need to work on balancing on the outside ski as you shorten that leg, or you'll fall over. Focus on outside leg weighting and inside leg shortening. NO PIVOTING! Your turns may be pretty wide, so you'll need empty slopes to learn this on. Do this on the bunny slope when it's empty, and progress to empty low-pitch greens. Your goal is to not gain speed as you get lower on the hill. You'll still be going very fast in each turn, just not gaining overall speed as you finish the run. Carving is inherently fast.

5. A second way to do speed control is to shorten the radius of these fast, carved turns. This involves bringing that inside knee up to your chest faster. This will get your skis on their downhill edges before they point down the hill. Consider this an advanced skill. It can help you not be dangerous to self and others on blue-green terrain. Carve only on beginner and green pitches until you're ready to work on this advanced skill.

6. This whole progression assumes certain things about your gear and your snow. Are you skiing on midwest/eastern hardpack, or western natural snow? What skis are you on? Are they wide, rockered powder skis, park twintips, or frontside carving skis with camber and short radius built into them?

7. You want to carve. Is this because you seek speed, or because you want to start racing? Or is there another reason?

Every time I read one of your detailed explanations, I think "I really need to get up to Bretton Woods and take some lessons from her"!!! Do you only teach on weekends, or do you teach during the week as well?

 

[liquidfeet]

I'm supposed to be teaching Thurs, Fri, and Sat. But my schedule is all screwed up and very inconsistent this year for many reasons. Just call the ski school ahead to find out when I'm on the schedule. You can PM me for details.

 

[Jilly]

I know, she can put into words what I can't. I can show you, but to describe it....Thanks LF!

 

[Am716]

@Am716, to carve comfortably on any terrain, you'll need to work your way through several steps.

1. First, you'll need to override the old habit of pivoting the skis as you start the new turn. This is the rushing part of what your instructors are telling you. It sounds like you always pivot the skis to point down and across the hill as you initiate your turns (most people do). Replacing this habit with tipping the skis and waiting for them to turn is in itself quite difficult to do. That's because so many people can't feel themselves pivot the skis. It's not so much fear or lack of knowledge causing the blockage, but the strong persistence of the old pivoting habit that keeps it in place and destroys any potential for a carved turn. Know your enemy! It's the pivot.

2. Carving makes the skis go fast in the direction they are pointed. The metal edges slice their way over the snow, and the tails follow the tips, scribing a thin line in the snow. This is FAST. That's why fear creeps in, and when fear is there, the pivot creeps back in. Carving speed can be shocking and frightening at first, so people bail and pivot the skis to point across the hill when the carve starts. So learning to carve needs to be done on stupid-flat terrain, with barely any pitch. Learning to carve on green pitches is difficult; go to the bunny slopes instead.

3. When on that beginner terrain, head straight down the hill doing railroad tracks. This is done by tipping both skis together starting with the ankles. You say you do railroad tracks. Great! Keep doing that. Do it again and again, until it's easy to get pencil-thin lines in the snow without wobbling and falling. When the speed gets too fast, abort and start over. You'll have little to no speed control, and that's OK. Just focus on tipping the skis and not pivoting, leaving those lines in the snow. Let the skis turn you. Once you figure out how to tip both skis with your ankles, without pivoting, and to balance on those two tipped skis, and to let the skis turn you, you'll still gain speed and get going faster than you are used to even on nearly flat terrain. That's OK; just stop, then start over.

4. Once you can make the carve happen on flattish terrain with those tiny railroad track angles, you'll need to learn to carve rounder, more completed turns. Completed turns are your first method for doing speed control. Completing your turns to almost point uphill will keep you from gaining speed as you head toward the lift. Teach yourself to shorten the inside leg more, bringing its knee up to your chest. Morph those railroad tracks into completed turns this way. On the bunny slope. This short-leg-knee-up-to-chest will give you higher angles, and will help the skis come all the way around. You'll need to work on balancing on the outside ski as you shorten that leg, or you'll fall over. Focus on letting the outside leg hold your weight while the inside leg is shortening. NO PIVOTING! Your turns may be pretty wide, so you'll need empty slopes to learn this on. Do this on the bunny slope when it's empty, and progress to empty low-pitch greens. Your goal is to not gain speed as you get lower on the hill. You'll still be going very fast in each turn, just not gaining overall speed as you finish the run. Carving is inherently fast.

5. A second way to do speed control is to shorten the radius of these fast, carved turns. This involves bringing that inside knee up to your chest faster. This will get your skis on their downhill edges before they point down the hill. Consider this an advanced skill. It can help you not be dangerous to self and others on blue-green terrain. Carve only on beginner and green pitches until you've gained this advanced skill.

6. This whole progression assumes certain things about your gear and your snow. Are you skiing on midwest/eastern hardpack, or western natural snow? What skis are you on? Are they wide, rockered powder skis, park twintips, or frontside carving skis with camber and short radius built into them?

7. You want to carve. Is this because you seek speed, or because you want to start racing? Or is there another reason?

Wow. Thank you for such a detailed, explanation. Definitely helps. It would help more if it wasn’t raining here so I could get outside to try.

In addition to everything else I hear (that was posted above), I hear a lot that I am very static in my stance (which it doesn’t feel that way to me!) and the whole shortening the inside leg comes up a LOT. Unfortunately, I can’t seem to quite master everything or think about everything and accomplish everything I am trying to think about. Usually results in even worse skiing. Everything makes sense to me, it’s the act of being able to do it. Something is holding me back and it’s seriously the most frustrating thing.

For railroad tracks, I am able to tip my ankles and get two nice lines. However when I try to carve (down the same run that I usually do railroad tracks) in order to be able to get the wider turns I really need to almost force my ski into an edge. I am sure that makes no sense in writing. If I use the same movement as I do with railroad tracks I end up with smeared turns. But maybe the feeling of forcing my ski on edge or more ankle movement? Or maybe it’s completely wrong.

As for snow, it’s usually hard packed groom, I ski in Michigan. I just bought junior Lange raceboots 90 flex (after years of buying the wrong boot. Boot fits well, I am not 100% convinced they aren’t a tad big but I am told they fit perfectly and they would only size me down if I was an actual racer) and ski Volkl Yumis (length 154, radius 15.3, 83 underfoot).

I want to be able to carve for a couple reasons. I feel it’s a skill you should be able to have. And I want to become an advanced skier and it’s hard to ever be able to say that when you smear turns and look like a beginner still. And next year I will take my alpine on hill test (for patrolling) and I am told they really prefer to see carved turns. And I am doing senior OEC this year with the hopes of doing my senior alpine in about 2-3 years and by then I will HAVE to be able to carve. So aside from reasons that I have to....it’s a mindset and mind game. I got it into my head that I want to and now I can’t let it go!!

 

[liquidfeet]

For railroad tracks, I am able to tip my ankles and get two nice lines. However when I try to carve (down the same run that I usually do railroad tracks) in order to be able to get the wider turns I really need to almost force my ski into an edge. Which ski? Outside ski? If yes, there's your issue. The way one gets a higher edge angle on the outside ski is to lower the inside half of the body, which tilts the outside leg, which tilts the outside ski. Shortening the inside leg, bending it at the knee to bring that knee up towards the chest/armpit, is the key. Do it slowly, as in Slo-Mo. Progressively. Wait for the outside ski to do its thing. Your weight should move to it passively. Do not force the outside leg/foot/ski to do anything. Let everything associated with it be passive. Work on keeping your torso uprightish (as in jacket zipper) as you do all this. Don't worry about counter.

As for snow, it’s usually hard packed groom, I ski in Michigan. OK, so hard snow.

ski Volkl Yumis (length 154, radius 15.3, 83 underfoot). Since you are on hard snow, go rent a pair of beginner rental skis with waist around 68 and a very short radius. Try those on that hard snow. They will require less body angles to get up onto higher edges.

I want to be able to carve for a couple reasons. I feel it’s a skill you should be able to have. And I want to become an advanced skier and it’s hard to ever be able to say that when you smear turns and look like a beginner still. Have you got video? Post it if you like, especially if you are doing those railroad tracks (they are carved, if they are railroad tracks) and trying to turn them into round turns. And next year I will take my alpine on hill test (for patrolling) and I am told they really prefer to see carved turns. And I am doing senior OEC this year with the hopes of doing my senior alpine in about 2-3 years and by then I will HAVE to be able to carve. So aside from reasons that I have to....it’s a mindset and mind game. I got it into my head that I want to and now I can’t let it go!! I get your passion. I'm not sure how carving will help with guiding a sled or putting up and taking down ropes or helping with downed skiers, but maybe they are looking for versatility. Best of luck in getting this to work. It takes perseverance to delete the pivoting and if you are leaning into your turns or pushing outward on that outside ski, work on keeping the jacket zipper vertical and leaving the outside ski to passively do what it wants to do. Your frustration is common; carving usually takes deliberate practice and lots of time to learn, especially on hard snow.

 

[Am716]

Which ski? Outside ski? If yes, there's your issue. The way one gets a higher edge angle on the outside ski is to lower the inside half of the body, which tilts the outside leg, which tilts the outside ski. Shortening the inside leg, bending it at the knee to bring that knee up towards the chest/armpit, is the key. Do it slowly, as in Slo-Mo. Progressively. Wait for the outside ski to do its thing. Your weight should move to it passively. Do not force the outside leg/foot/ski to do anything. Let everything associated with it be passive. Work on keeping your torso uprightish (as in jacket zipper) as you do all this. Don't worry about counter.

Yes, my outside ski. So pretty much I am doing it wrong! Haha awesome, thank you so much. Definitely will try this when we reopen!! I am so excited to try, you have no idea. Haha stupid question but how much are you able to really shorten that inside ski/leg when on a pretty flat run? The run I use is green but it’s FLAT. Super flat. Whenever people talk to me about shortening the inside leg they show me images of racers. Which I know is an exaggeration but truly how much are
You able to shorten that leg and get into that position on a flat run?

Since you are on hard snow, go rent a pair of beginner rental skis with waist around 68 and a very short radius. Try those on that hard snow. They will require less body angles to get up onto higher edges.

it might not matter but our rental skis are less than stellar. A fellow patroller let me borrow his race skis (I honestly have no idea what they are. Fischer’s maybe?) and I had a blast on them. Couldn’t carve but he said they are so stiff that he has a hard time carving them. Not sure if that’s true or not. When talking to the guy that works with me (the race coach) he was recommending the volkl race tigers (Racetiger SC carbon). Not the usual ones I see the racers have....I guess this pair is less stiff/less metal. He said they are very unforgiving though and I thought they might be good for me as it would maybe knick my bad habits quicker. Andnthe narrorrow width might help with carving. But then a lot of people think since I started training on my yumis I should stick to them until I am done with alpine testing...

Have you got video? Post it if you like, especially if you are doing those railroad tracks (they are carved, if they are railroad tracks) and trying to turn them into round turns.

I can get a video. There are some videos on our training iPad of just me taking normal runs but I am sure I can get some to video my railroad tracks once we reopen. Give me a day....or 4. Depending on in this rain and 50 degree weather stops!!

I get your passion. I'm not sure how carving will help with guiding a sled or putting up and taking down ropes or helping with downed skiers, but maybe they are looking for versatility. Best of luck in getting this to work. It takes perseverance to delete the pivoting and if you are leaning into your turns or pushing outward on that outside ski, work on keeping the jacket zipper vertical and leaving the outside ski to passively do what it wants to do. Your frustration is common; carving usually takes deliberate practice and lots of time to learn, especially on hard snow.

Lol I think my passion and desire to become a better skier has been taken the wrong way by many. I just want to be better. I am sick of being at this plateau of being an “okay” skier. (And after joining patrol I am not even 100% sure if I am an okay or intermediate skier as I once thought!). Especially when everyone else is improving so much or can ski so well. I feel like a fraud patroller compared to the others (granted, I was wanted because of my medical knowledge and background. Not because I could ski well!!!).

I can’t tell you why they want carved turns. I just know that’s what I have been told by senior patrollers and one of the examiners!

Thanks so much. I am definitely going to try what you have typed out for me. It’s such a long process! But I think the whole shortening the inside leg and not forcing the edge with my outside ski might really help! Again, will be able to let you know once I can get back on the slopes!

 

[volklgirl]

Where in Michgan are you skiing?? Maybe we can get together and work on this some.

And yes, the Yumi will carve, but it requires patience, angles, and pressure control that it seems you don't have yet. A Volkl Racetiger (either SL or junior GS) will definitely help you with this. Even a narrower recreational ski with some chops will make carving MUCH easier to learn.

 

[Am716]

Where in Michgan are you skiing?? Maybe we can get together and work on this some.

I patrol at Mt Holly so my 400 hours this year have all been there. But I usually do a couple weekend up north at the Boynes and Nubs. And you may occasionally find me at PK.

 

[volklgirl]

Ah. I'm typically at Crystal or Caberfae, although I get to Nubs a few times a season.

 

[Am716]

Ah. I'm typically at Crystal or Caberfae, although I get to Nubs a few times a season.

If I get out that way I will let you know! Hopes it’s been good skiing that way. It’s been anything but stellar here. Except Monday when we finally got some snow! Then polar temps....now 50 degree weather. Wtf Michigan.

 

[volklgirl]

Wtf Michigan.

Right?!?!

 

[Jilly]

Mt. Holly....permagrin teaches there. I'll ping her on Facebook to look at this.

 

[Am716]

Mt. Holly....permagrin teaches there. I'll ping her on Facebook to look at this.

If it’s April or Jan, I work with them. I know April knows OF skidiva, not sure if she posts here. And I am sure Jan probably knows of this site too.