Low delta bindings - look or demo?

[Covie]

Calling all low delta skiers! Do I take the plunge on a delta negative demo binding (squire tcx 11) or go with something like a look pivot that is known for being pretty close to flat?

context:

- delta is the angle created by the height of the heel and toe pieces of the binding. Almost all bindings are delta positive meaning the heel is higher than the toe.
- ramp is similar, this is the difference from the heel to toe inside a ski boot.
- both delta and ramp have an effect on fore/aft balance, so important for skiing
- most people seem to prefer positive delta, or maybe don’t have a preference/are unsure.
- I am not one of these people. I don’t want to be difficult but I guess the combo of my ski boots and physical traits means it is so!

I currently have Tyrolia attack GW 11 and find that I have too much forward lean. This for me is how I feel about driving in high heels - I can do it no problem, but using the pedals doesn’t feel as easy as flat shoes. Maybe a delta neg situation would feel like driving in those throw away pedicure flip flops ??? Not sure but I’d like to get it right. I have heard that the attack 11 heel is different that the 12, 13 etc. being geared more towards women. I can’t find that info on the year my binding was made, but according to Phil from ski talk’s awesome specs for 2023 attacks, there is no change in delta between 11 and 12 - around 5mm.

ok this is long winded! TLDR I want less delta than 5mm, look pivot is 2.5mm and a squire demo is -1mm. I bought my current skis using demo bindings and it was all sunshine and lollipops, better than with attacks but maybe I should play it safe with the pivot. Thoughts? Any pivot users that can weigh on a comparison between the experience on a pivot vs another binding? The demo will have a higher binding stance too.

thanks in advance, so much!

 

[nopoleskier]

Calling all low delta skiers! Do I take the plunge on a delta negative demo binding (squire tcx 11) or go with something like a look pivot that is known for being pretty close to flat?

context:

- delta is the angle created by the height of the heel and toe pieces of the binding. Almost all bindings are delta positive meaning the heel is higher than the toe.
- ramp is similar, this is the difference from the heel to toe inside a ski boot.
- both delta and ramp have an effect on fore/aft balance, so important for skiing
- most people seem to prefer positive delta, or maybe don’t have a preference/are unsure.
- I am not one of these people. I don’t want to be difficult but I guess the combo of my ski boots and physical traits means it is so!

I currently have Tyrolia attack GW 11 and find that I have too much forward lean. This for me is how I feel about driving in high heels - I can do it no problem, but using the pedals doesn’t feel as easy as flat shoes. Maybe a delta neg situation would feel like driving in those throw away pedicure flip flops ??? Not sure but I’d like to get it right. I have heard that the attack 11 heel is different that the 12, 13 etc. being geared more towards women. I can’t find that info on the year my binding was made, but according to Phil from ski talk’s awesome specs for 2023 attacks, there is no change in delta between 11 and 12 - around 5mm.

ok this is long winded! TLDR I want less delta than 5mm, look pivot is 2.5mm and a squire demo is -1mm. I bought my current skis using demo bindings and it was all sunshine and lollipops, better than with attacks but maybe I should play it safe with the pivot. Thoughts? Any pivot users that can weigh on a comparison between the experience on a pivot vs another binding? The demo will have a higher binding stance too.

thanks in advance, so much!

Hi, I have both. I have Look pivots on my Renoun Z-90', I went with what Renoun recommended. I love the set up, I like to chase fall lines and "ski the ski". I have demo's on my Liberty 76w's I think they are squires/demo, they came from Phil. (they're out in the car or I'd have the model). The pivots feel lighter than the demo's, I like that too. They are also my favorite skis, is it the binding? maybe part of it.. I really like the ride with a low to no delta, I like the feeling of my foot flat in my boot, utilizing the whole ski. I just put Pivots on my new Sheeva 10's.

Before my current set ups, I had Atomic's that came w/atomic system bindings. My Old black pearls have old griffons on them. I hate the binding (can be tough to get in) but they work fine for my purpose; spring skiing, pretty sure they are low delta, by the feel. At demo days I have had reps say the ski was set up for women- I did not like the ride, I felt like I was leaning forward or my toes were being jammed in the toe box, I'm going to assume they were positive delta. Lucky me I don't wear high heels any more, so skiing in them is not what I want to do. BTW, My boots are off the rack with no modifications.

Any way you can check with what the ski manufacturer recommends?
What skis are you putting them on?

 

[Covie]

Thanks for the super helpful reply. I’m planning to put them on Nordica unleashed 98w. There doesn’t seem to be a recommendation but they are affiliated with Marker so I imagine a griffon or squire. I also wasn’t a fan of the stiff griffon heel. Another factor to consider is that I ski with a 7 or 8 din so the squire wouldn’t be in the optimal middle that a look pivot 14 would be - though I’m not sure that matters too much? I used to prodeal bindings and would always just pick a beefier binding so this attack 11 was my attempt to try something new for a good price.

 

[Scribble]

The attack 11 were no-goes for me, they pitched me too far forward and gave my skis a vague, bendy feel I didn't like. I went with Griffon tcx demos on my Santa Ana 88's and like them. My Shiva 9's have the Squire tcx. Both are easy to get into and I like having the adjustability.

 

[contesstant]

The thing about demoing is you're not demoing the exact same binding. I demoed the Santa Ana 98 with a Squire demo two years ago and loved loved loved it--bought a new pair and put Squires on them (even though I hate that binding's heel piece) because I figured if I demoed with Squires, then I'd better put Squires on. Well, I never felt balanced, they just made me feel like my ankles were permanently in a closed position, so I remounted with some Salomon Warden 11s and am much happier. I have since put Warden's on everything just to maintain consistency.

It's funny because I've always been super sensitive to binding delta and usually preferred a flatter binding, but that has changed a bit for me. I'm sure different boots have played into my changing preferences. Now that I've found my Goldilocks boot, I'm sticking with the same bindings across my skis. What a frustrating journey it's been.

Anyway, in your case, I'd probably try to split the difference and go with a binding that has some Delta vs. negative. Easier said than done, I know.

 

[MissySki]

You could get the demo version of the binding you demoed though, right? That’s what I’ve thought about doing because I also find that I almost always strongly prefer the demo ski I test versus the ski I buy.. and assume it’s the binding difference doing that.

 

[Covie]

The thing about demoing is you're not demoing the exact same binding. I demoed the Santa Ana 98 with a Squire demo two years ago and loved loved loved it--bought a new pair and put Squires on them (even though I hate that binding's heel piece) because I figured if I demoed with Squires, then I'd better put Squires on. Well, I never felt balanced, they just made me feel like my ankles were permanently in a closed position, so I remounted with some Salomon Warden 11s and am much happier. I have since put Warden's on everything just to maintain consistency.

It's funny because I've always been super sensitive to binding delta and usually preferred a flatter binding, but that has changed a bit for me. I'm sure different boots have played into my changing preferences. Now that I've found my Goldilocks boot, I'm sticking with the same bindings across my skis. What a frustrating journey it's been.

Anyway, in your case, I'd probably try to split the difference and go with a binding that has some Delta vs. negative. Easier said than done, I know.

Interesting findings. That definitely suggests the look pivot over the neg delta demo. I agree it totally changes if a new boot has a different lean and ramp, and I want these skis to last a while, maybe longer than the boots!

 

[Covie]

You could get the demo version of the binding you demoed though, right? That’s what I’ve thought about doing because I also find that I almost always strongly prefer the demo ski I test versus the ski I buy.. and assume it’s the binding difference doing that.

Oh yeah I definitely think the binding is the difference - same person, same ski, same boot so that leave the tune and binding. My husband and I were amused by the thought of this happening over and over again. I try a ski love it, buy it, put different binding on it, become not so sure, then demo a ski, love it buy it repeat! Haha

 

[Covie]

I’m contemplating a butter - wheelie test to prove the delta theory. I only have a skiff of snow so somebody out west might need to take it on before I forget. I’m thinking you need optimal flex of the ski to lean on your tails and pop up into the air. I notice that I can scrunch right down in my current set up, and I don’t think I’m flexing the tails properly - there seems to be a lack of leverage in that deep flexion isn’t doing much beyond lowering my pelvis toward the ground.

 

[Covie]

Haha I wrote wheelie above. I meant Ollie. My son will think that’s funny.

 

[contesstant]

You could get the demo version of the binding you demoed though, right? That’s what I’ve thought about doing because I also find that I almost always strongly prefer the demo ski I test versus the ski I buy.. and assume it’s the binding difference doing that.

That's what I did with the Squires and they were decidedly not the same. I was perplexed! Swapped them for the Warden 11s and was immediately smiling. Maybe I just like a little more delta on a powder ski, not sure. I swear I'm going to stockpile Warden's so I have them for years to come That being said, I hate drilling my skis twice, not for me, but for resale, as I tend to sell mine after one or two seasons (although not usually a powder ski) and now my Santa Anas have been drilled twice.

I think the new Salomon Strive demo has a lower stand height that actually mirrors the non-demo version of the binding. Could become my new favorite binding, but not an option with the current lowest DIN of 14 for. I'm hopefully they'll come out with an 11 DIN next year.

 

[MissySki]

That's what I did with the Squires and they were decidedly not the same. I was perplexed! Swapped them for the Warden 11s and was immediately smiling. Maybe I just like a little more delta on a powder ski, not sure. I swear I'm going to stockpile Warden's so I have them for years to come That being said, I hate drilling my skis twice, not for me, but for resale, as I tend to sell mine after one or two seasons (although not usually a powder ski) and now my Santa Anas have been drilled twice.

I think the new Salomon Strive demo has a lower stand height that actually mirrors the non-demo version of the binding. Could become my new favorite binding, but not an option with the current lowest DIN of 14 for. I'm hopefully they'll come out with an 11 DIN next year.

Ohhhh darn.. I must have misinterpreted. I thought you meant that you had put regular Squires on them after liking the demo Squire, and that was what accounted for the different feel. So do we think there is a difference between the demo Squire bindings we can purchase versus the ones used on fleets of demo skis for the manufacturer? Sounds like I need to beg and plead for them to sell me the exact demo ski I try out if that's the case!

Maybe also it really does have to do with how broken in a demo ski might be versus a brand new one.. I don't know, but I find the whole thing quite frustrating and would love to solve for being able to love the skis I buy just as much as the pair I demo! Most of the time it's at least close, but I did have the recent Santa Ana 93 debacle last season where I had so much trouble with the pair I bought yet had been zipping around loving the demo ski. Tomorrow is demo day at Sunday River and I am so looking forward to comparing the demo Santa Ana with my pair back to back. Mine are also at the shop getting a tune to rule out anything wonky there. When I brought them in the guy in the shop thought they looked really good, so I'm not really convinced that will be the difference maker. If I still hate mine this season I am probably just going to sell them at this point, just not worth it to invest too much more time on it I don't think. I also got it for a great deal last season, so I should be able to recoup most of my investment for such a popular ski. I would even entertain moving my bindings forward a tad since my major complaint was not feeling like I could pressure my tips enough so turn initiation is super difficult.. but for resale purposes you make a good point for not redrilling to do that when I don't even know if that would fix things for sure.

 

[contesstant]

Ohhhh darn.. I must have misinterpreted. I thought you meant that you had put regular Squires on them after liking the demo Squire, and that was what accounted for the different feel. So do we think there is a difference between the demo Squire bindings we can purchase versus the ones used on fleets of demo skis for the manufacturer? Sounds like I need to beg and plead for them to sell me the exact demo ski I try out if that's the case!

Maybe also it really does have to do with how broken in a demo ski might be versus a brand new one.. I don't know, but I find the whole thing quite frustrating and would love to solve for being able to love the skis I buy just as much as the pair I demo! Most of the time it's at least close, but I did have the recent Santa Ana 93 debacle last season where I had so much trouble with the pair I bought yet had been zipping around loving the demo ski. Tomorrow is demo day at Sunday River and I am so looking forward to comparing the demo Santa Ana with my pair back to back. Mine are also at the shop getting a tune to rule out anything wonky there. When I brought them in the guy in the shop thought they looked really good, so I'm not really convinced that will be the difference maker. If I still hate mine this season I am probably just going to sell them at this point, just not worth it to invest too much more time on it I don't think. I also got it for a great deal last season, so I should be able to recoup most of my investment for such a popular ski. I would even entertain moving my bindings forward a tad since my major complaint was not feeling like I could pressure my tips enough so turn initiation is super difficult.. but for resale purposes you make a good point for not redrilling to do that when I don't even know if that would fix things for sure.

You interpreted correctly--I demoed them with demo Squires, loved them, so had regular Squires put on, felt all out of balance, even after several times skiing them. So, I put Warden 11s on them and they felt great. So, why the marked difference between the demo Squires and the non-demo? Crazy!

Your Santa Ana 93 story does make me wonder what in the actual??! I can't imagine a demo ski would be so used up that it would somehow feel "better". The ones I demoed were in superb condition. You'll have to keep us all posted on how it goes!

I still absolutely love my SA 98s, even on groomers. They are not my daily driver by any stretch, but are a hoot in the right conditions.

 

[Covie]

Hmmm warden 11 you say? Adding to my list. Since my original post I have acquired a look pivot 14 95mm, look nx 11 system (on some carvers) and a marker Griffon demo 110mm I think. Now need to sort out skis for these - the fun part haha!

 

[santacruz skier]

I ordered Warden 11's and they were super heavy... returned them....

 

[Covie]

They do seem burly!

 

[contesstant]

They do seem burly!

Ironically, I have a set of Warden 11s in storage and a set of Squires in storage. I'm planning to mount the Warden's on a new pair of powder skis. I'll have to weigh them. That being said, I don't mind a bit more weight. It's honestly the last factor I look at. I'll be selling the Squires--they have the non-TCX heel piece. I forgot I still had them.

 

[Elizabeth.I]

Hmmm warden 11 you say? Adding to my list. Since my original post I have acquired a look pivot 14 95mm, look nx 11 system (on some carvers) and a marker Griffon demo 110mm I think. Now need to sort out skis for these - the fun part haha!

I have look pivots on all my resort skis because I prefer a low delta. Love them!

 

[Covie]

Remind me in the off-season to shop for bindings! Prices are $$$.

 

[contesstant]

Remind me in the off-season to shop for bindings! Prices are $$$.

I have some Squires I need to sell, I think with 100m brakes but not 100% sure on that. They were skied on a handful of times. 2021 model. Prices on bindings and helmets have skyrocketed, for sure.