Legs Go Into the Splits on Steeper Runs

[marzNC]

When you and I skied together I really didn’t know what that meant. Now after some lessons at Cochran’s I finally do! So crucial.

When I skied with you, I didn't know what the key ideas could be for an adult advanced beginner. Having learned the basics in middle school, there are some skills that I don't remember how I learned them.

In January, I did a 2-hour semi-private lesson with my friend, JF, who starting skiing when her kids started (ages 4 and 6) about eight years ago. Also included her son who is an advanced skier by now after ski school at Massanutten and Alta. We worked with Walter (L3, 30+ years experience), who I started working with in 2013. We did a progression of drills covering fundamentals the first hour. Observing JF and her son was really helpful to me. What I understood about what he was trying to teach JF was far more than when I first worked with him. Later on during a different ski trip to Massanutten, I was skiing with a tween who also started with ski school. Reminding her to slow down by going uphill and leading her on the easy blue was the way to make sure her turning skills were solid enough to take up to the top to enjoy the empty Lift 6 and the two black trails (blue in the northeast).

For me, leading my friends was a great way to practice going slow on a groomer.

 

[Elena_Ski]

Hi everyone! What an amazing thread!! I re-read it 5 times and every time learned something new. Seriously))) I'm trying to progress from a low intermediate to a confident intermediate level and your advice is absolutely golden. I don't do splits exactly, but on steeper blue runs my brain somehow thinks that a half wedge will give me more stability. So whenever I get uncomfortable with the angle of the slope, I find my feet in a half wedge (with one foot more perpendicular to the slope than parallel). I'm trying to work on consciously keeping my feet parallel, which sometimes involves lifting up the "lagging" foot and setting it down parallel to the other. Having read this thread, I feel that my problem might be not enough pressure or edge on the outside foot. Will try to work on those and see what happens!

 

[ilovepugs]

Hi everyone! What an amazing thread!! I re-read it 5 times and every time learned something new. Seriously))) I'm trying to progress from a low intermediate to a confident intermediate level and your advice is absolutely golden. I don't do splits exactly, but on steeper blue runs my brain somehow thinks that a half wedge will give me more stability. So whenever I get uncomfortable with the angle of the slope, I find my feet in a half wedge (with one foot more perpendicular to the slope than parallel). I'm trying to work on consciously keeping my feet parallel, which sometimes involves lifting up the "lagging" foot and setting it down parallel to the other. Having read this thread, I feel that my problem might be not enough pressure or edge on the outside foot. Will try to work on those and see what happens!

Make sure you keep your ankle flexed while completing the turn too!

 

[newbieM]

Hi everyone! What an amazing thread!! I re-read it 5 times and every time learned something new. Seriously))) I'm trying to progress from a low intermediate to a confident intermediate level and your advice is absolutely golden. I don't do splits exactly, but on steeper blue runs my brain somehow thinks that a half wedge will give me more stability. So whenever I get uncomfortable with the angle of the slope, I find my feet in a half wedge (with one foot more perpendicular to the slope than parallel). I'm trying to work on consciously keeping my feet parallel, which sometimes involves lifting up the "lagging" foot and setting it down parallel to the other. Having read this thread, I feel that my problem might be not enough pressure or edge on the outside foot. Will try to work on those and see what happens!

I have noticed I have the same issue when I get scared and things feel too steep even though getting in the wedge makes it so much harder to get out unless I stop and reset my feet.

 

[Jilly]

It's a defensive movement. You feel safe there. It'll take some time, repetitive skiing that run and confidence to get over it. But it can be done. Keep trying to prevent the wedge.

 

[liquidfeet]

....on steeper blue runs my brain somehow thinks that a half wedge will give me more stability. So whenever I get uncomfortable with the angle of the slope, I find my feet in a half wedge (with one foot more perpendicular to the slope than parallel). I'm trying to work on consciously keeping my feet parallel, which sometimes involves lifting up the "lagging" foot and setting it down parallel to the other. Having read this thread, I feel that my problem might be not enough pressure or edge on the outside foot. Will try to work on those and see what happens!

Going into a wedge on challenging terrain is a common issue. If flows naturally from having been taught the wedge as a beginner.

On nearly flat terrain the wedge successfully slows a cautious/frightened beginner down, and the wedge is often taught as the way to stop as well as go slow. Unfortunately, the security offered by the wedge gets drilled deeply into a beginner's brain on day one. It will be there forever, once embedded. It's in my head too, deep down in there. And it will come back to haunt the skier when caution or fear appears.

The reason the wedge doesn't work on pitches above beginner level has to do with how the wedge slows the skier down. It uses friction - the two skis scrape against the snow in the direction of travel. But the amount of friction one can generate with the wedge is not enough to deal with the pull of gravity when the pitch is no longer almost flat.

But it's not just that the wedge isn't strong enough to slow one down. It also works strongly against what a skier needs to do to control speed on all but the flattest terrain. Speed control needs to come from the direction of travel. Going across the hill, and/or almost uphill, to complete the C shape, will slow the skier down. With linked C-shaped turns, the skier slows down with every turn. That's how speed control happens. More across travel, less down travel, is built into the C.

If a cautious skier goes into a wedge while heading across the hill, one of those two skis will be pointing more downhill than the other. That one is the uphill ski. The cautious skier often leans uphill, over that ski, or presses on it in an attempt to generate more friction. You can guess what happens when a skier puts pressure on the downhill-pointed ski. It's weighted ... and so it takes off ... downhill. The intended C-shaped turn gets cut off by that ski, and all effective speed control from direction of travel is undermined.

To make round, speed-controlling turns, both skis need to be pointed in the same direction. That way the skier is in control of the shape of the turn, not that naughty wedged uphill ski.

 

[brooksnow]

That way the skier is in control of the shape of the turn, not that naughty wedged uphill ski.

Naughty ski, lol.

I'll be using that in my teaching. Thanks.
Great explanation of why a wedge doesn't work.

 

[Mistletoes]

Going into a wedge on challenging terrain is a common issue. If flows naturally from having been taught the wedge as a beginner.

On nearly flat terrain the wedge successfully slows a cautious/frightened beginner down, and the wedge is often taught as the way to stop as well as go slow. Unfortunately, the security offered by the wedge gets drilled deeply into a beginner's brain on day one. It will be there forever, once embedded. It's in my head too, deep down in there. And it will come back to haunt the skier when caution or fear appears.

The reason the wedge doesn't work on pitches above beginner level has to do with how the wedge slows the skier down. It uses friction - the two skis scrape against the snow in the direction of travel. But the amount of friction one can generate with the wedge is not enough to deal with the pull of gravity when the pitch is no longer almost flat.

But it's not just that the wedge isn't strong enough to slow one down. It also works strongly against what a skier needs to do to control speed on all but the flattest terrain. Speed control needs to come from the direction of travel. Going across the hill, and/or almost uphill, to complete the C shape, will slow the skier down. With linked C-shaped turns, the skier slows down with every turn. That's how speed control happens. More across travel, less down travel, is built into the C.

If a cautious skier goes into a wedge while heading across the hill, one of those two skis will be pointing more downhill than the other. That one is the uphill ski. The cautious skier often leans uphill, over that ski, or presses on it in an attempt to generate more friction. You can guess what happens when a skier puts pressure on the downhill-pointed ski. It's weighted ... and so it takes off ... downhill. The intended C-shaped turn gets cut off by that ski, and all effective speed control from direction of travel is undermined.

To make round, speed-controlling turns, both skis need to be pointed in the same direction. That way the skier is in control of the shape of the turn, not that naughty wedged uphill ski.

When I’m on steeper terrain in MG/LG conditions, I lose my confidence and revert back to a wedge. I can feel the loss of control and lack of rhythm. I know I have to let my outside leg let go at the end of the turn for my new outside leg to take over but they fight for control and I’m back to a beginner again. Letting go of the old downhill ski is so hard to do!

 

[liquidfeet]

When I’m on steeper terrain in MG/LG conditions, I lose my confidence and revert back to a wedge. I can feel the loss of control and lack of rhythm. I know I have to let my outside leg let go at the end of the turn for my new outside leg to take over but they fight for control and I’m back to a beginner again. Letting go of the old downhill ski is so hard to do!

Here's a starter question for figuring out how to work on this issue on challenging terrain.

When on easy terrain, how do you "let go" of that downhill ski? What body parts do you move, how do you move then, and in what order to you do this?

 

[Mistletoes]

Here's a starter question for figuring out how to work on this issue on challenging terrain.

When on easy terrain, how do you "let go" of that downhill ski? What body parts do you move, how do you move then, and in what order to you do this?

This question seems like it should have a simple answer but when I think about it there’s a lot going on!
Hmmm, let me try to break down what I think is happening…First I pole plant to mark my next turn, I point my shoulders down the hill, the skis go flat, and I let my downhill knee/boot roll to the outside as my new downhill ski comes around the turn and takes over. I’ll be practicing this to pay more attention.

 

[liquidfeet]

This question seems like it should have a simple answer but when I think about it there’s a lot going on!
Hmmm, let me try to break down what I think is happening…First I pole plant to mark my next turn, I point my shoulders down the hill, the skis go flat, and I let my downhill knee/boot roll to the outside as my new downhill ski comes around the turn and takes over. I’ll be practicing this to pay more attention.

These elements all sound quite familiar.

Here's what I get from your words. Correct where I've got things messed up.
1. pole plant first
2. turn upper body to face downhill (assuming it was facing the trees before)
3. as a result, skis start to go flat on their own
4. then you roll your downhill knee outward
5. skis turn to point downhill

I've probably got some of this wrong.

This is worth doing in order to figure out where in this sequence your body revolts and says No! Then the task is to figure out how to overwrite or bypass that No!

 

[Mistletoes]

These elements all sound quite familiar.

Here's what I get from your words. Correct where I've got things messed up.
1. pole plant first
2. turn upper body to face downhill (assuming it was facing the trees before)
3. as a result, skis start to go flat on their own
4. then you roll your downhill knee outward
5. skis turn to point downhill

I've probably got some of this wrong.

This is worth doing in order to figure out where in this sequence your body revolts and says No! Then the task is to figure out how to overwrite or bypass that No!

Here's what I get from your words. Correct where I've got things messed up.
1. pole plant first YES
2. turn upper body to face downhill (assuming it was facing the trees before)not facing trees before, separation is good. I like the control I feel when emphasizing this.
3. as a result, skis start to go flat on their ownYES
4. then you roll your downhill knee outward YES
5. skis turn to point downhill YES
I’m pretty sure it’s rolling my knee outward (step 4) because it’s a newer feeling for me and I don’t trust it yet so I let my uphill ski “help”.

 

[liquidfeet]

....I’m pretty sure it’s rolling my knee outward (step 4) because it’s a newer feeling for me and I don’t trust it yet so I let my uphill ski “help”.

Here's a screenshot of a Level III ski instructor demonstrating how he establishes his edge angles. His focus is on the new inside leg, flexing it, shortening it, bringing its knee up towards his chest. Now this is a static demo he's making as he talks with Deb Armstrong. When skiing, that new inside ski will stay on the snow and the amount of lift he gets with that knee will determine how far over he tilts, and thus how high his edge angles are.

The reason I'm showing this is to make visible the connection between rolling the new inside knee outward and shortening the leg. They work together. This skier is focusing on shortening that leg. But the knee is definitely rolling outward even without him focusing on it.

If you shift your focus from rolling the knee outward (which means rolling it downhill, which is scary!) to shortening that leg, you'll get the same result: the skis will flatten and tip onto new edges to start the turn. This was the conceptual shift that got my body to let go of the old turn on steeps. I had the same difficulty you are describing - for years. This shift in focus solved it for me.

So, you might try focusing on slowly and precisely shortening that new inside leg. Just that one leg, not the other. No knee rolling. Just focus on shortening that leg in slow motion. See what happens. Report back. Good luck!

Oh, here's the video link:

 

[Mistletoes]

Here's a screenshot of a Level III ski instructor demonstrating how he establishes his edge angles. His focus is on the new inside leg, flexing it, shortening it, bringing its knee up towards his chest. Now this is a static demo he's making as he talks with Deb Armstrong. When skiing, that new inside ski will stay on the snow and the amount of lift he gets with that knee will determine how far over he tilts, and thus how high his edge angles are.
View attachment 20522
The reason I'm showing this is to make visible the connection between rolling the new inside knee outward and shortening the leg. They work together. This skier is focusing on shortening that leg. But the knee is definitely rolling outward even without him focusing on it.

If you shift your focus from rolling the knee outward (which means rolling it downhill, which is scary!) to shortening that leg, you'll get the same result: the skis will flatten and tip onto new edges to start the turn. This was the conceptual shift that got my body to let go of the old turn on steeps. I had the same difficulty you are describing - for years. This shift in focus solved it for me.

So, you might try focusing on slowly and precisely shortening that new inside leg. Just that one leg, not the other. No knee rolling. Just focus on shortening that leg in slow motion. See what happens. Report back. Good luck!

Oh, here's the video link:

I’m excited to try this - I like how this focuses on the new inside leg and pulls my attention off the other leg. I’ll let you know how it goes, thank you!

 

[Mistletoes]

I’m excited to try this - I like how this focuses on the new inside leg and pulls my attention off the other leg. I’ll let you know how it goes, thank you!

Have had 2 days to practice this and can confirm Thinking of shortening the old downhill leg has helped. My daughter is a second year U12 racer and it drives her nuts when I ski in a little wedge. She has been watching me like a hawk and is making it her mission to point out every lapse she sees. I did the same trail yesterday and today. I felt like I struggled on it both days but she said I looked much better today, all parallel turns.
I’ll be practicing this for a while to keep working on building this new habit. Thank you for your knowledgeable feedback and tips Liquidfeet!

 

[liquidfeet]

Have had 2 days to practice this and can confirm Thinking of shortening the old downhill leg has helped. My daughter is a second year U12 racer and it drives her nuts when I ski in a little wedge. She has been watching me like a hawk and is making it her mission to point out every lapse she sees. I did the same trail yesterday and today. I felt like I struggled on it both days but she said I looked much better today, all parallel turns.
I’ll be practicing this for a while to keep working on building this new habit. Thank you for your knowledgeable feedback and tips Liquidfeet!

I'm glad to hear you've experienced good results from this approach to initiations. It takes time to become comfortable with this new approach, but it's totally worth it.

A note about starting turns by focusing on flexing/shortening the downhill/new inside leg:

Focusing on that downhill leg eliminates the possibility of going into a wedge at turn start. This is because when you shorten that leg, it gets light (normally). That weight transfers by default to the uphill ski. When your weight is on that uphill ski before the skis point downhill, that tail can't swish outward. It is pressed onto the snow and won't swish out unless you are standing on the other ski to swish it.

People who inadvertantly go into a wedge as the turn starts do this because they continue to stand on the downhill ski at turn start and focus on doing something new with the uphill ski. That downhill ski is pressed onto the snow on its old edge so it's stuck in place under the body. Plus, it's not going to do anything new because the skier is not focused on it. So something new has to happen with the new outside ski. Since the tail of the uphill ski is lighter, it swishes out without any conscious effort. Thus the wedge turn entry.

This unconscious swishing happens as a result of three hold-over habits from learning to ski:
--reliance on the wedge
--focusing on doing something with the new outside ski to start the turn
--rotating the skis to point in the new direction.

Overwriting those old habits takes time and deliberate practice doing something to replace them.

Overwriting is what you are doing!

 

[Elena_Ski]

@ilovepugs
@Jilly
@liquidfeet

Thanks so much for the tips ladies! I'm literally writing them down! This is super helpful!

 

[Elena_Ski]

Going into a wedge on challenging terrain is a common issue. If flows naturally from having been taught the wedge as a beginner.

On nearly flat terrain the wedge successfully slows a cautious/frightened beginner down, and the wedge is often taught as the way to stop as well as go slow. Unfortunately, the security offered by the wedge gets drilled deeply into a beginner's brain on day one. It will be there forever, once embedded. It's in my head too, deep down in there. And it will come back to haunt the skier when caution or fear appears.

The reason the wedge doesn't work on pitches above beginner level has to do with how the wedge slows the skier down. It uses friction - the two skis scrape against the snow in the direction of travel. But the amount of friction one can generate with the wedge is not enough to deal with the pull of gravity when the pitch is no longer almost flat.

But it's not just that the wedge isn't strong enough to slow one down. It also works strongly against what a skier needs to do to control speed on all but the flattest terrain. Speed control needs to come from the direction of travel. Going across the hill, and/or almost uphill, to complete the C shape, will slow the skier down. With linked C-shaped turns, the skier slows down with every turn. That's how speed control happens. More across travel, less down travel, is built into the C.

If a cautious skier goes into a wedge while heading across the hill, one of those two skis will be pointing more downhill than the other. That one is the uphill ski. The cautious skier often leans uphill, over that ski, or presses on it in an attempt to generate more friction. You can guess what happens when a skier puts pressure on the downhill-pointed ski. It's weighted ... and so it takes off ... downhill. The intended C-shaped turn gets cut off by that ski, and all effective speed control from direction of travel is undermined.

To make round, speed-controlling turns, both skis need to be pointed in the same direction. That way the skier is in control of the shape of the turn, not that naughty wedged uphill ski.

So beautifully explained, thank you!
You are so right about the perceived security of the wedge! I also come from a cross country skiing background where a wedge is used for stopping. So when I was learning to downhill ski, I had to remind myself all the time that I wasn't skiing nordic))