knock-kneed edging

[dartmoorskier]

ha - thought that might grab your attention, or not

When I ski, I get a better edge on my downhill ski than my uphill ski, so my knees aren't both parallel. I make good carves and ski reasonably well and ski instructors always say that I have good technique. I have about 15weeks under my belt in the past 5 years. I'm 46, so I'm a late starter. I guess I won't ever be as good as someone who's skied all their life, but I'm pretty confident to ski anywhere.
When I stand with my feet parallel and hip width apart and bend my knees, I go knock-kneed. An American ski instructor first had me do this (actually it was in WP and his name badge had 'Keith from Sheffield' which made me laugh - all the way across the pond to have lessons from someone from the UK)
So, does my 'conformation' limit my skiing?

 

[Jilly]

This is not odd, infact very common, sorry to say.

1. Find a good bootfitter and have your boots adjusted.
2. If that is a problem, then try to get the uphill knee 'out'. This will involve rolling the uphill knee into the hill. It will feel awkward and might even hurt a bit as the muscles and tendons learn something new. (This was my approach, didn't know a good boot fitter at the time!)
3. Concentrate on getting the uphill edge to edge. Two excerises come to mind, 1000 steps, as you traverse a wide run, step off the downhill ski and move on the uphill only. Just a short distance, just to get the feel. Keep going. The second one is to ski only on the uphill ski. This requires a really good sense of balance and is something not a lot of good skiers can do. (One reason why I'm not a level 3 CSIA yet!)

So you can see if there is something really wrong with your stance that insoles, canting etc could fix in your boots. Or try to physically change your stance so than you're not knocked kneed.

Good luck.

 

[SnowHot]

See this picture from Stowe 2006
I'm the one in the retro grey/pink sweater...

This is after some boot work. I had my soles planed and shimmed. YAY!

See the difference?

As Jilly said, there is some boot fitting that can be done, but there is also some technique that you can learn.

For me, I was a decent aggressive skier but had no idea how much I was fighting my own body to make good movements until I had my boots fixed

See Gearpedia article here.
https://www.theskidiva.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2075

 

[MaineSkiLady]

Real common problem, especially for women (due to "q" angle). Often can be remedied with custom insoles, before having at the actual boots/soles etc. I'd say try this first, see if improved - if more needed, then start with the boot modifications. Custom insoles can be put into successive pairs of ski boots, are a great value.

 

[dartmoorskier]

Thanks! How does a boot fitter adjust ski boots for this problem? Are the insoles higher on one side?
I will practice those drills too. I do find it uncomfortable - I shall just have to keep at it. Are there any exercises at home/in the gym I can do to trigger those muscles?

 

[MaineSkiLady]

The knock-kneed stance is generally a result of 2 things: foot pronation and q angle. Allow me to explain. When you go for the inside edge, your foot gives the boot the "signal" - however, if your arch is "collapsing" (i.e., pronating) when you do this, the boot will not respond. Therefore, you are resigned to moving your leg/tipping your knee way in to get the desired response from the boot and thus the ski.

Once you have custom insoles that properly support your arch, not allowing it to "collapse," your foot signals to your boot won't get lost in translation. The boot will respond. Yes, the insole sort of feels "higher," but it's really just providing the support that your arch isn't giving your foot. Once inserted, the stance sort of feels Buzz-Lightyear-bow-legged until you get used to it.

Next thing that has to be addressed is cuff angle. Often, the cuff alignment has to be changed to accommodate the new stance. The combination of these 2 is often enough to make a huge difference.

The 3rd step would be actual canting of the boot sole, by subtle grinding. This is obviously a major and permanent modification, whereas adjusting cuff angle is not - and insoles are interchangeable between boots (mine are in at least their 6th pair).

The q angle discussed above is the angle from which a femur projects from the hip socket to the knee. Women's pelvises being obviously wider than men's, our femurs have a greater angle from hip to knee. This also contributes to our stance often being knock-kneed.

Indeed, yes, doing drills as mentioned, such as 1,000 steps, will feel unwieldy to you without the modifications. Once your stance is corrected, you'll be way amazed at how much easier all this is. Makes a world of difference, and it's totally worth the expense.

I'd start with the insoles first and proceed from there. For me, it's currently insoles and cuff angle adjustment; I've not had to modify boot soles. I was the "queen of pronation" for years. This changed skiing for me. Hope it works as well for you!

 

[SnowHot]

Thanks! How does a boot fitter adjust ski boots for this problem? Are the insoles higher on one side?
I will practice those drills too. I do find it uncomfortable - I shall just have to keep at it. Are there any exercises at home/in the gym I can do to trigger those muscles?

This gear article explains a lot.
Why you, Yes You! need a boot fitting
MSL has given some good advice, which is along the lines of the article.

The thing you'll find when you go to a good bootfitter is that he/she will likely be able to figure out if you need a simple fix or something more aggressive.
I found that custom footbeds and canting helped but they weren't the ultimate fix. The Planing and shimming fixed me up good!!

One thing that I would caution you about is doing too much inside the boot to fix the angle.
While shims inside the boot can work, a properly fitted boot will not have enough room inside for shims without causing some significant discomfort.
Finding a good boot fitter can seem intimidating, but trust me, its worth it and you'll be sooooo happy that you treated yourself to a proper fit!

 

[dartmoorskier]

I had my boots made in Austria. They are called 'Strolz'. I have narrow cuffs for my narrow ankles and a low volume shell (narrow feet). I then had a 'two-pack' mixture pumped into the shells as I was standing in them. (and a schnapps for the discomfort). I then had some footbeds put in them. Strolz originally started as a business making regular shoe/boots for people with unusual feet. I'm sure they will take a look if I explain the problem. Thanks for your feedback - very interesting!

 

[LindaB]

In my opinion, as a certified bootfitter, it seems like you have had some work done and are on the right path. Find a certified bootfitter in your area to evaluate your biomechanics (windlass, fore & aft balance, etc), check out what has already been done in your boots and he/she should be able to help you out with further adjustments. You can check out www.bootfitters.com to find a certified bootfitter in your area.

Good luck and keep us posted.

 

[SnowHot]

I had my boots made in Austria. They are called 'Strolz'. I have narrow cuffs for my narrow ankles and a low volume shell (narrow feet). I then had a 'two-pack' mixture pumped into the shells as I was standing in them. (and a schnapps for the discomfort). I then had some footbeds put in them. Strolz originally started as a business making regular shoe/boots for people with unusual feet. I'm sure they will take a look if I explain the problem. Thanks for your feedback - very interesting!

Wow, you have got a good foundation.
With the fitting you've done and the custom footbeds you already have, now its time to see if planing is in your future....
LindaB follows with some great advice.........

In my opinion, as a certified bootfitter, it seems like you have had some work done and are on the right path. Find a certified bootfitter in your area to evaluate your biomechanics (windlass, fore & aft balance, etc), check out what has already been done in your boots and he/she should be able to help you out with further adjustments. You can check out www.bootfitters.com to find a certified bootfitter in your area.

Good luck and keep us posted.

LindaB, Thanks for poking in here. You said what I was thinking as I read dartmoors follow up.

 

[dartmoorskier]

I'm going to have to get on a plane to find a qualified boot fitter, but you have convinced me to get my boots looked at next season. Thanks.

 

[gardenmary]

I'll jump in quickly to say that my bootfitter started me off with heel lifts and SuperFeet footbeds, which was good; but on the recommendation of an instructor, she then canted the boots out to get rid of the knock-knee effect I have due to my outrageously flat feet. (I have no arch whatsoever.)

The next time on the hill, I didn't realize until lunchtime that I had been turning effortlessly and productively all morning. I am certain it was due to the canting. I paid more attention to my skiing after lunch, and indeed, my knees weren't getting in each other's way and my turns were great. Suddenly blue runs didn't scare me any more!

That reminds me, I need to bring my bootfitter a gift for that! I know it's her job, but it made such a BIG difference!

 

[SkiBam]

I had my boots made in Austria. They are called 'Strolz'. I have narrow cuffs for my narrow ankles and a low volume shell (narrow feet). I then had a 'two-pack' mixture pumped into the shells as I was standing in them. (and a schnapps for the discomfort). I then had some footbeds put in them. Strolz originally started as a business making regular shoe/boots for people with unusual feet. I'm sure they will take a look if I explain the problem. Thanks for your feedback - very interesting!

Interesting about the Strolz boots. Back in the early sevenites, I was in Europe for a summer and needed new boots. My future (at that time) father-in-law drove me from Switzerland to Lech to order Strolz boots. They measured, etc. and told me to come by at the end of my travels (three months later) to get the molding and fitting done. I arrived back there at the appointed time - and the boots weren't ready! They said they'd send them to me in Canada and we could foam inject them ourselves. Big mistake! The boots did arrive and we did foam inject them, and I've never had worse boots in my life. Eventually one toenail turned black and fell off. Following that disaster, I picked up some second-hand boots that served me way better.

Now remember, this was a long long time ago and boot technology has improved immensely. And I'm sure Strolz remains a top brand. I'm also very happy to have an excellent bootfitter and shop near me in the Laurentians now. Last two pairs of boots (Dalbello) have been excellent.

Anyway, the mention of Strolz sure brought back memories.

 

[Pequenita]

Are there any exercises at home/in the gym I can do to trigger those muscles?

I talked to my physio about a month ago about this -- she recommended one-legged squats in the mirror. While doing so, watch yourself in a mirror and basically use whatever muscles to prevent your knee from tracking inward. She prescribed me 3 sets of 15. For me, the drill falls in the "I don't buy it but it can't hurt" category (as long as you're squatting correctly!) because I believe that the reason for the inward tracking/Q angle is anatomical, not muscular. But, then again, I'm not a physical therapist.

 

[PowDiva85]

you can also get your skis canted which is less expensive than planing boot soles (unless you have a lot of skis) and you don't have to worry about protecting the soles of your boots with cat tracks

 

[SnowHot]

The primary problem with canting skis instead of boots is that it marries you to the skis.
With the boots as the primary tool, you can travel with just your boots and rent or demo skis at your destination, which is something you've discussed in another thread.

 

[PowDiva85]

agreed. It all depends on you situation. Most of the customers I work with only own one, maybe two, pairs of skis and use those skis exclusively. The canting system we use is easily changed so we can actually cant our demos to your specifications, even at demos on the hill, but obviously very few shops do this.