Is Vail Resorts Killing Whistler's Spirit?

[ski diva]

I'm not a Whistler skier -- heck, I've never even been -- but I found this article in Forbes very interesting. It's about how locals feel about the Vail acquisition now that some time has passed. Whistler skiers, what do you think? Do you agree or disagree? And what do skiers at other Vail-acquired resorts think about what's going on at their respective mountains?

 

[newboots]

Dispiriting. I can't get over the rates being figured in US$, with fluctuating exchange rates published for the Canadians! In their own country! The Ugly American syndrome at its finest.

 

[Jilly]

The exchange rate crap has been the bane at Tremblant too. Also season pass monies, Epic or Ikon, are going directly to Colorado, not staying local. Because of that, we didn't pay local taxes this year. If you buy the local pass - ie Tonik, then you'll pay the taxes. Be interesting to see what Alterra does with day passes at Tremblant. US or Cdn $. I can't see why they can't figure on a Cdn $ price and work with it. I buy at lot of items in Cdn $ using a US price list and a factor off the list price. It changes, but not daily. More like every year, depending on the fluctuations. Epic has also removed the locals only pass from the roster this coming season at Whistler, and the 1 or 3 day Edge card as noted in the article.

I have to agree with some points. If you're looking to get European visitors, then the metric system is what they are used to. Measurements in metres, degrees in Celsius, speed in Kph. Even the Aussie and Kiwi's use it. Time for the US to join the world on that one.

 

[Albertan ski girl]

I'm not sure if this is an actual thing - but I found the accommodation prices to have gone up considerably since Vail acquired Whistler. When I went to WB before VR bought it, I was able to find a room for about $140CAD pretty easily in the village to share. We were thinking about going to Whistler this past season and kept looking for room prices to go down, but we didn't see anything below $225 at all. Our best bet was going to be to stay in Pemberton - which we might do in future years.

I also really wish that the 3 day edge card still existed :(

 

[Christy]

I'm not a huge Whistler fan anymore and I have no reason to defend Vail but this article is off base on many counts. First, the employee housing/rising cost of living thing--that's a problem everywhere, in ski towns and also pretty much anywhere people really want to live or vacation. According to Powder Mag, Whistler does a better job of housing employees than almost anywhere. https://www.powder.com/stories/news/whistler-housing-employees-ski-town-heres/

Whistler wasn't a mom and pop mountain before Vail. There was Intrawest, Fortress Investments, KSL Holdings...This has been a Large Corporate Entity (that people liked to complain about) for a long time. And it was the last owner that set in motion the huge expansion that is coming with the water park and such.

It's true there is no more 3 day Edge Card, which I liked too, but there never was a one day Edge Card as the article states. You could add days on during the season at a discounted price, but you couldn't just buy a one day EC.

I have the Whistler app. Here's what it looks like. There's no F. The current mt temp page has both C and F.

The cost of a season pass (which is the Epic Pass) has dropped massively. It used to be over $2000. So I have to think that is one major way Vail has benefited locals.

Over on Pugski one regular said that skier visits have actually been down this year and the rumor is that Vail is going to start discounted one day lift tickets to increase day traffic. That was surprising to hear; I wonder if tourist visits are up but actual skier numbers are down.

I found the accommodation prices to have gone up considerably since Vail acquired Whistler.

I too think hotel prices have gone way up the past couple years--most of our trips were fairly last minute, and we were usually able to find something very reasonable. But I don't think this has to do with Vail. They don't set prices at the Hilton, Westin, etc. And in the last few years travel has been up everywhere--from national parks to European cities to...well, everywhere--and so it makes sense that there's just more demand and higher prices. (The Holiday Inns and Best Westerns in Seattle are now charging $400+ in summer.) To me, Whistler has just gotten busier and busier since the Olympics, which is why I don't go anymore. Maybe it doesn't have anything to do with the Olympics-maybe it's just the rise in tourism and the growth of Vancouver and Seattle.

 

[marzNC]

I too think hotel prices have gone way up the past couple years--most of our trips were fairly last minute, and we were usually able to find something very reasonable. But I don't think this has to do with Vail. They don't set prices at the Hilton, Westin, etc. And in the last few years travel has been up everywhere--from national parks to European cities to...well, everywhere--and so it makes sense that there's just more demand and higher prices. (The Holiday Inns and Best Westerns in Seattle are now charging $400+ in summer.) To me, Whistler has just gotten busier and busier since the Olympics, which is why I don't go anymore. Maybe it doesn't have anything to do with the Olympics-maybe it's just the rise in tourism and the growth of Vancouver and Seattle.

Haven't been to Whistler and don't follow the news that carefully. Not on my bucket list for just a ski trip. But often complaints about rising costs are blamed on a change, when in fact prices would've gone up any way. Not exactly related but I remember when my company was growing and the health insurance carrier changed. Costs to employees, especially parents, increased. Most people thought that their out-of-pocket costs not covered by the company would've stayed the same with the former carrier. In fact, the reason for the change was that costs would've been even higher without the change.

Some locals at Telluride aren't happy that a Telluride season pass will be getting Epic Pass perks instead of MCP discounts. But most recognize that the market that Telluride values matches up better with Epic Pass holders. People willing to fly to Telluride to stay for a week spend far more money per day than MCP holders who show up for 2-3 days and look for the cheapest lodging they can find. Telluride is actively marketing to Europeans and Australians. What's unique is that the marketing effort is a joint venture between the resort owner and the town.

 

[ilovepugs]

Anecdotally, my husband was standing in a lift line with the owner of a restaurant in Whistler this February. She said business was half what it used to be because Vail has made things so much more expensive, including jacking up the ground rents that they charge to the hotels and other businesses.

 

[Christy]

That seems a little odd. Vail doesn't own Whistler Village. You can buy or rent commercial space there just like you can anywhere else, and development/business is regulated by the municipality (not Vail--Whistler is a town with a mayor, etc). Rising rents are a problem there for a lot of small businesses, like they are in Seattle, Vancouver and many other places, but this doesn't have anything to do with Vail.

https://www.piquenewsmagazine.com/w...rm-of-economic-conditions/Content?oid=4005133

 

[marzNC]

That seems a little odd. Vail doesn't own Whistler Village. You can buy or rent commercial space there just like you can anywhere else, and development/business is regulated by the municipality (not Vail--Whistler is a town with a mayor, etc). Rising rents are a problem there for a lot of small businesses, like they are in Seattle, Vancouver and many other places, but this doesn't have anything to do with Vail.

https://www.piquenewsmagazine.com/w...rm-of-economic-conditions/Content?oid=4005133

Good article. The comments are interesting too.

Although the properties in question aren't owned by Vail, the purchase of Whistler-Blackcomb by Vail Corp. probably did change the perception of other commercial property owners about the short term and long term future of the area. I would guess that the change that meant people expected the planned capital improvements to the resort would be implemented without any fear of delays due to financial constraints.

Did property values and business rents near by increase the year or two after Vail purchased Northstar and Heavenly? Around Stowe?

 

[ilovepugs]

Good article. The comments are interesting too.

Although the properties in question aren't owned by Vail, the purchase of Whistler-Blackcomb by Vail Corp. probably did change the perception of other commercial property owners about the short term and long term future of the area. I would guess that the change that meant people expected the planned capital improvements to the resort would be implemented without any fear of delays due to financial constraints.

Did property values and business rents near by increase the year or two after Vail purchased Northstar and Heavenly? Around Stowe?

I get Stowe real estate market alerts and it seems that prices have shifted up-market somewhat, and certainly real estate inquiries have increased. But I think it's too early to see the effects of the Vail purchase at Stowe because we've only had 1 ski season since the purchase was announced. I noticed that the beloved Waffle Cabin discontinued operations on the hill, though. :(

 

[newboots]

I read recently in the Mountain Times that real estate sales in Killington set a record in 2017. Not Vail; big ski resort.

 

[Olesya Chornoguz]

I wonder what @Whistler Cathy thinks about this article?

 

[marzNC]

Pretty long interview from late May 2018 with Katz about the first season with W-B as part of Vail Corp.

https://www.piquenewsmagazine.com/w...vail-resorts-ceo-rob-katz/Content?oid=8962701

 

[marzNC]

A few excerpts from the May 2018 interview with Rob Katz, CEO of MTN aka Vail Resorts Inc.:

Pique: Would you consider bringing back the 3-Day Edge Card, another popular option for regional skiers?

RK: There’s two pieces of feedback that we’ve heard around them: One is some concern that (the public) wasn’t able to buy their Edge Card during the season. That’s something we don’t think is constructive for the sustainability and protection of the resort in the long term. Our company has made it a primary focus to get people to buy their skiing before the season begins, and the reason is that we are faced with some tough challenges as we look to the future. The weather is getting much more variable and with what’s going on with climate change, I think resorts have two obligations: One is we need to be doing the right thing for the environment … But we also know that that’s not going to solve the weather issue on its own, so we need some business strategies. So what we’ve done at Vail Resorts is (asked) how we create stability in the face of that weather challenge, so getting people to buy in advance is a pretty important piece.

The other thing we heard is that five days is too many, and there are people who would like to buy less than that. Another strategy is to try and get people to purchase more skiing because that provides more commitment and security to the resort and the community. But we’re continuing to listen to that feedback and we'll see if there is something else we can do for the more casual skier.

Pique: What efforts are you taking, if any, to preserve and promote Whistler’s distinct culture?

RK: Whistler’s importance to Vail Resorts is because of its uniqueness. If you go to any of our guests anywhere in the world, the thing they will tell you immediately is that they appreciate the differences between our resorts. No one wants our resorts to be the same.

Candidly, we don’t hear from our guests at these resorts that it reminds them of other resorts. Now it’s true though, and we can’t take credit for this, that Whistler is a very successful ski resort that had its makings well before Vail Resorts was ever involved. That ski resort is now facing the challenges that many of our resorts are: ‘Wait a minute, there are so many people here.’ Or ‘Whistler has expanded so much more than I expected.’ ‘When I was here 10 or 20 or 30 years ago, it was totally different.’ And that’s a community conversation that the resort needs to be very much a part of as to how we do (preserve the culture) collectively. The way we protect it is by ensuring everything we’re doing is looking to maintain what makes Whistler special: the big-mountain skiing, the community, the town, the unique flair and brand position of this resort—because if we did change it, it would only be to our detriment.

Pique: In respect to skier visits, is there a magic number that you want to hit, or is it simply the more the merrier?

RK: I would state the obvious, which is the more, the less merry. The more people we try to put on the mountain, the less quality that experience is going to be, and people don’t enjoy that. That’s true not only on the mountain but with all the transit and infrastructure pieces of the community. It’s incumbent upon us, collectively, to help manage that. We see that as a very important component. It’s also why we’ve said, ‘Hey, those people who are willing to buy their skiing in advance, that’s an important constituency for us because it creates that long-term stability for our business and the community.’ To be honest, we struggle with someone who wants to show up on a powder day and get a very discounted price, because we don’t know how many powder days there will be. We try and orient the company around that strategy to really incentivize people to buy (in advance).

There’s no magic number. I don’t have a magic box where I type in a specific number (of visitors). But I will say that I always worry when people say, ‘We don’t want more people,’ because that sometimes goes the other way. Business that don’t want to grow often start to slide backwards. The key is to invest in the infrastructure and in the community.

The easiest way to get people not to come is to make the experience bad. Our job is to be thoughtful about growth, but make the infrastructure changes so that we don’t turn this into a bad community. We’re highly attuned to this at our other resorts, that on peak days, we can’t push more people (onto the mountain).

Our job is to keep turning the dials and see how the season goes, see what we think for next year, but in a way that doesn’t lose our connection to any of these communities. I think that these ski resorts need to be a place where everyone feels comfortable they can be at together, whether it’s the person from New York that isn’t as good a skier, to the person who’s got a brown bag lunch in their knapsack, to the person who’s getting a coupon to ski free from their friend, to the wealthy tech person from Hong Kong. These resorts need to be open and accessible to a broad range of people. There’s no other place in travel where you see this, where people can be on the hill together. That’s what makes the sport special.

 

[Tvan]

I'm not sure if this is an actual thing - but I found the accommodation prices to have gone up considerably since Vail acquired Whistler. When I went to WB before VR bought it, I was able to find a room for about $140CAD pretty easily in the village to share. We were thinking about going to Whistler this past season and kept looking for room prices to go down, but we didn't see anything below $225 at all. Our best bet was going to be to stay in Pemberton - which we might do in future years.

I noticed the same phenomena when I booked Christmas accommodations at Stratton for 2018. Stratton is now on the Ikon pass, and accommodation rates hav skyrocketed. Freaking crazy!

 

[Jilly]

Had a survey today from VR. Did anyone else get one?