Is Recklessness Regional?

[SallyCat]

This was my first season in 30 years, and a family situation in Vermont had me commuting from PA to VT fairly frequently.*

I found that I enjoyed skiing in VT/NH much more than in PA (Blue/Camelback), and not because the snow was really any better in New England this year, and not because of the big resorts sizes either (I was often at smaller places like Ragged Mountain and Pat's Peak).

What I liked about northern New England was that when I heard someone behind me, I didn't become instantly fearful for my safety. The heavy, "scritching" sound of a snowboard or skier behind me in the Poconos sparked intense fear, and I spent a lot of time on the sides of slopes waiting for an opening in the crowds. I'm a decent intermediate, and I ski crowded slopes very predictably, with tight turns so I'm not putting myself in people's paths unexpectedly. Even so, young skiers and boarders would still come screaming straight down the fall line, and I was brushed several times--instances that came within literally an inch of being potentially season-ending if not tragic. There just seems to be a culture of recklessness combined with low skill levels in the Poconos that I did not see at all in New England. The slopes in PA are littered with snowboarders in terrible places (hairpin turns, the middle of a trail, often under a hump so they're not visible...). Both Blue and Camelback seem to have a very visible ski patrol presence, but I didn't notice that making any difference.

This year, my Peak pass gets me into JackFrost, which I'm told is far less crowded on weekends than Blue/CBK, which can get crazy. I'm thinking about buying a spine protector just in case I get hit. And I'm now very selective about when and where I ski. But at the same time, I don't want to miss time on the mountain.

I wonder if those of you with more varied experience can speak to this issue. Is the recklessness a regional phenomenon? What strategies do you use to avoid dangerous crowds?


*(Skiing, in fact, was a lifesaver in a horrifically difficult winter. It reduced my stress and anxiety tremendously, gave me something positive and healthy to look forward to, and allowed me to help my family more effectively while remaining effective in the classroom. HUGE thanks to the cosmos for whatever impulse prompted to me to give it a try this year.)

 

[surfsnowgirl]

I have only snowboarded 2 x in the poconos and it was a long time ago so I can't really speak to that area. I spent years snowboarding at Mountain High and Big Bear in Southern California as well as Mammoth and really only had an issues with recklessness at Mountain High. Now that I'm on the right coast I mainly ski in Western Mass and Vermont. My usual haunts for skiing in Vermont are Mount Snow and Bromley. This past year I skied Jay Peak and the eastern townships of Quebec twice.

Where I've really seen recklessness is at Mount Snow and Bromley in Vermont. A couple years ago I had a bad spill at Killington when a snowboarder took me out. I see a lot of recklessness at Mount Snow with mainly what I like to call suicidal snowboarders. One day at Bromley this father seemed to think it was a good idea to have race training for his kids early season on the mountain when there was only a handful of trails open. I think a lot of the recklessness at least this past season was because mountains had little terrain open for longer than normal in the season.

I've had a bit of concern in the past of people coming up behind me and startling me. I have to say when I was skiing Jay Peak and eastern Quebec I had 0 issue for concern, everyone seemed very respectful of everyone's space and I wasn't nervous even once about anyone behind me. When encountering very steep parts in Jay Peak people actually allowed space in between you before they ascended down the steep. It was quite nice.

So I would say it absolutely happens in the northeast as well. Recklessness can be anywhere. Maybe someone who skis PA will chime in on their experiences.

I always stay to one side of the trail and keep a consistent pattern so anyone in back of me can tell what I'm doing, etc. If I hear that jarring snowboard sound or hear a flock of people come up behind I will pull over and let them pass. I will often hear someone pass me and say on your right or left and I very much appreciate this. I try and do the same. I have found the more reckless people on the "easier" trails so I have started to just find blues anywhere in Vermont to get me off of the main area and this has helped tremendously with weeding out some of the recklessness.

 

[SallyCat]

I'm sorry to hear that about Mt. Snow. Is the common thread here...New Yorkers? :-)

 

[surfsnowgirl]

I'm sorry to hear that about Mt. Snow. Is the common thread here...New Yorkers? :-)

I don't think so. Hunter in new york was described to me as riddled with the stereotypical new yorker. I haven't encountered this at mount snow or even Bromley. I freakin love mount snow and its where I usually am when my home mountain in western mass is closed or if I take a sick/vacation day during the week. I have mainly learned to just stay off of Long John or at least take little John which cuts off the narrow top part of it where the recklessness is most dangerous. Long John is a green but its quite steep in parts and is rather windy and its 3.1 miles long so its quite fun. I just avoid the top part of it when I can. Usually after the snowboarders cut into the terrain park about 1/3 of the way down it gets better.

I had most issues earlier in the season so I'll chalk this up to longer than normal early season, lots of crowds on only a handful of trails and suicidal snowboarders. I've heard others complain about Killington as well, its just so crowded.

 

[ski diva]

I think there are reckless skiers everywhere. Some of it is age -- I know it's stereotyping, but I see more of this behavior in young men than women or older male skiers. Some of it is when you choose to ski. If you're a weekend skier, it's generally more crowded with people who might not ski that much and don't necessarily have the control or knowledge about the rules of the road. And @surfsnowgirl is right: the limited terrain in the northeast this year funneled more skiers into fewer trails, which I'm sure contributed to it, too.

That said, some mountains do seem to have more of a vibe for aggressive behavior than others. I don't know what it is -- maybe it's the culture of what's acceptable, maybe it's the sort of patron they attract. I've never skied Hunter in New York, but people have told me that it's like that. I can't say if it's honestly true, but it's possible.

 

[tinymoose]

This year, my Peak pass gets me into JackFrost, which I'm told is far less crowded on weekends than Blue/CBK, which can get crazy. I'm thinking about buying a spine protector just in case I get hit. And I'm now very selective about when and where I ski. But at the same time, I don't want to miss time on the mountain.

Blue and Camelback are like the very worst places you can go in the Poconos on the weekends. Blue is where I got mowed down by a snowboarder a few years ago. I was lucky that I walked away with nothing more than a sore back and a good scare. My personal recommendations to avoiding crowds are Jack Frost and Montage. Much better.

 

[Kimmyt]

I've found that any place that draws 'occasional' skiers tends to have more reckless behavior. The places that draw 'lifelong' skiers or those who take it seriously tend to be a bit safer. Thats why spring break and holidays out here are so scary, because a lot of those once a year skiers come out and go crazy.

 

[SallyCat]

@tinymoose RIGHT!? Lol, live and learn. Honestly, I kept going to CBK because it's super close and I thought that all of the Poconos ski areas were zoos on weekends. I'd get there at 7:30 and have 2.5 hours of great fun before the hoards arrived, then I'd just chill until it thinned out. I can't wait to try new place next year: JF/BB, Elk, Montage, etc.

 

[surfsnowgirl]

DH actually mostly refuses to ski Christmas week in an attempt to avoid those once a year skiers who ski and board like they are on a psychotic mission. My Mount Snow season pass actually has Christmas week, MLK and Presidents weekends as blackout days which I'm totally fine with because I am usually nowhere near here during these times.

I will usually be working at my home hill in western Mass during the weekends around Christmas time. MLK weekend is likely going to be in eastern Canada again and we are usually at Bromley on Presidents weekend.

I am a weekend warrior and the weekends definitely are more crowded. I have played hooky during the week and if I had my way I'd only ski M-F because I love how uncrowded it is during the week compared to the insanity of the weekend.

We had the best time in eastern Canada. I swear everyone up there knows how to ski and just doesn't cause worry coming up behind you or get in your way. Everyone just skis and is very good. I am sure there are reckless people there too but everyone is just such a damn good skier and I felt like there weren't any crazy fair weather skiers up there.

 

[Christy]

I've found that any place that draws 'occasional' skiers tends to have more reckless behavior. The places that draw 'lifelong' skiers or those who take it seriously tend to be a bit safer. Thats why spring break and holidays out here are so scary, because a lot of those once a year skiers come out and go crazy.

That. And, some ski areas draw the demographic (young men) that are more likely to exhibit reckless behavior. Mt Baker is famous for snowboarding, and the nearest town (Bellingham, which is the only town of any size within 1.5 hours) is a university town, so Baker is full of 18-22 y.o. riders. No thanks. Stevens Pass draws more of this crowd than Crystal because it's closer to Seattle, it has a free shuttle from the suburbs (so parent can drive their teens to the shuttle), and it has more park/pipe features. And it's really evident--you see far fewer reckless young guys at Crystal than Stevens.

Sun Valley, which is off the beaten path and draws an older crowd of locals, second home owners and ski clubs, has the best skiers I've ever seen. The few riders I see are a pleasure to watch--I'd never seen really good, graceful snowboarding in person until I went there.

 

[sibhusky]

Knock on wood....

I've never been really hit here. Yet.

The last season (a WAYS back...) at Camelback I was hit SIX TIMES. I was hit there pretty much every year more than once. Sometimes it was a largely empty slope, I'd stopped off to the side and the jerk came right at me like I was invisible. Sometimes there was even someone standing next to me talking. I don't know how much was due to ice, how often due to crowds, and how much due to being total a$$4013s.

Now, I know people here who have been hit. And I've had some people come damn close in spite of (see my website) the place being largely a ghost town most of the time. I even had a guy wing me while I took pictures at the top of a forked area leading to three different trails (i.e., it was really wide) and no one else visible in any direction. Not a blind spot, no fog, and he appeared in the instant before he hit me to be a "good skier" only...he knocked me as he went across the slope.

I can't say I'm without guilt, because I have hit people myself. Two snowboarders who went down immediately in front of me on narrow crowded trails. One just SAT after taking a hard left completely across the trail. The other did a "trick" and never looked to see who was behind them and then didn't land the trick. And once I hit guy #3 at Camelback after dodging guys 1 and 2 who suddenly started moving two different directions without looking up hill. That one was clearly my fault. The others questionable as to how I could have avoided them. Picked another trail?

We have one problem area here called the Anthill. There are slow signs at the top and at the bottom and sometimes even midway. But, snowboarders especially will straightline the thing. And there are only occasionally "speed control" people waving futilely at them. And I've had guys try to make left hand turns across the whole width from the right hand side of the trail. One even tried to pass me to do it. I mean, he came from behind me and then tried to cut right around in front of me. I mean, why not go behind me? Really, the area is the worst on the mountain, accessing double black terrain, and everything except total bunny trails. The combo is scary. Then add fog. And as the day goes on, add building moguls. I routinely will start skiing peripheral areas just to avoid the thing. Which eliminates about 30% of the terrain -- most of the back and all of the North Bowl area.

But generally it is far safer here than the "metro areas" of the east coast. There's just less people. Once you're off the Anthill, you're pretty safe.

 

[Divegirl]

At first, I thought regional as SallyCat mentioned above. My worst experiences were also in the Mid-Atlantic - Ski Liberty and Snowshoe. Then after thinking about it, it may be age and time of week related with a regional component due less snow and fewer days of skiing and smaller resorts in the mid-Atlantic.

I skied Liberty a couple times a year on Fridays (my day off). Unfortunately, Fridays coincided with the Baltimore, York and/or Harrisonburg school systems sending bus loads of kids to Liberty for the day. Most had never been on skis or snowboards and Liberty seemed to be understaffed and/or the kids under chaperoned and running wild. I was taken out by a snowboarder at Liberty just getting off the lift during Girl Scout Friday. The boarder got her board woven between my skis and was too busy talking to her friend on the lift and could not get her board out of my skis before the lift reached the top. We went down in a heap and I now have a partially torn tendon in my left shoulder.

I would ski Snowshoe every couple years mid-week vacation. That is the only place where I had skiers (mostly men) take runs at me if I pulled off to the side of a trail to look at my map or get my bearings. I made sure I pulled over in a wide, visible area and as close to the edge w/o falling into the trees and I still had either my tip or tails of my skis run over along w/ a nicely placed elbow to the chest or back.

Since moving back to MA, I have not had those experiences but I am lucky in that I no longer work and can ski mid-week and I no longer ski vacation weeks or weekends. My home mountain does get hopping after 2 pm weekdays (race leagues, school teams) so I try to be off the mountain by 1 pm. Fridays are "Home School Days" - local home schoolers take the day off and go skiing.

 

[SallyCat]

Thanks for replying, everyone. It's very helpful to get different/broader perspectives. It's good to know that with a little strategic planning, I can avoid dangerous situations without losing any time on skis.

 

[marzNC]

For the small areas in the Mid-Atlantic, southeast, and mid-west, definitely more likely that there will be fast skiers who aren't really that good who end up skiing on the same slopes as more cautious intermediates. When there are less than 200 skiable acres, essentially all groomed, it's hard to separate folks of different ability levels in the same way as at a place that is 500-1000 acres in the northeast or over 1500 acres out west. One reason some small ski areas have little incentive to upgrade an older, slower lift is that a faster lift would mean even more more on the slopes at the same time.

For a quick sense of the variation in size between regions, take a look at the acres and vertical for each of the major regions in Mountain Vertical.

https://mountainvertical.com

Can look at a list of ski areas/resorts near major cities. Very different between Denver and Philly.

There is a lot more variation than you might imagine even between ski areas relatively close together. Elk and Plattekill are very different from Hunter, Belleayre, and Windham. Partially due to the different type of owners, but mostly because of the differences in driving times from major metropolitan areas (NYC, Philly, Baltimore/DC). Massanutten and Wintergreen are pretty close (an hour apart in northern VA), but differences in layout and travel access make them feel quite different on weekends. Snowshoe, Timberline, and Winterplace in WV serve very different customer bases.

Last week at Alta (2000 acres) the spring conditions meant that going off the groomers before 11am or so wasn't a good idea given the freeze/thaw cycles. So there were a fair number of advanced skiers speeding down the groomers in the mornings. At the same time, there were a lot fewer skiers in general since many locals were already done for the season and not many travelers plan a ski trip in April. Just another example of how timing can make a big difference for those who ski groomed blues and blacks.

 

[Kimmyt]

I learned to ski at Blue Mtn, PA. I didn't realize how terrifying it was until I moved away from there. Now, I'm surprised I survived.