inept skiers on expert slopes

[tamlyn]

Over the years I have seen ski patrol hassle expert skiers for skiing to fast, even when in control, on expert slopes. Yet I never see them bother skiers who are on slopes they clearly don't belong on. Whiteface at Lake Placid comes to mind. There seem to be alot of instructors here and I would think some ski patrol. Could somebody explain to me the reasoning behind letting skiers gather to talk in the middle of a run, especially at a bottleneck, traversing without looking uphill, tucking with their butt up in the air and poles sticking up at eye level, and lining up across the run at the top of a headwall thus blocking anyone from doing a whole mountain run. It almost seems the lowest common denominator is encouraged. One of the reasons I race so much is so I an escape these inept skiers who get on the lift at Whiteface,where there is a billboard saying the run is for top experts only. Then when I get to the top there is a line of people sidestepping down. I later see many of the people in the ski shop buying pins saying "I skied Whiteface" (I am referring to the run where they hold the FIS downhill races). It is extremely steep and always boiler plate ice.
Tami (gravity girl)

 

[SkiNurse]

For one, here in Colorado I have never seen patrol on an expert run telling people to slow down. They only do that in "slow" zone where a) a lot of cross traffic, b) alot of traffic c) beginner runs, I have no problems with them trying to control speeders in those type of areas. Some of the worst injuries I have seen was from a skier/rider coming down the mountain at mach speed and hitting someone below them. It has nothing to do with their control, but when you are going that fast, it's hard to avoid the skier/rider below you.

I think that a lot of the people that you are mentioning, don't care about the skier code or think it doesn't apply to them. Who's responsibilty is it to educate skiers & riders? The skier code signs are all over the resorts here.

 

[geargrrl]

Well, I've been with our patrollers at sweep numerous times when they have patiently escorted someone down a slope they had no business being on. Lessons on the fly you might call it - but it's so much more. You've got somoene who's tired, embarrassed that they are over their head, bonking, pissed off that someone ditched them out there (maybe) and then they have to have the ski patrol hold their hand to get down the hill at dusk!!

 

[perma-grin]

If they have purchased an all area ticket there isn't a whole lot that I (patrol or ski Instructors) can say about their choice of terrain to ski or ride on. I am limited to "suggesting" easier terrain for them to attempt. Down hill skier does have right away so if you are up hill you have the responsibility to keep your skiing under control if you consider yourself to be an expert. I have never chastised an expert skier on expert terrain only in slow zones. On the other hand if an inept skier collides with another patron then I have the authority to corner a ticket and strongly suggest other terrain (or their ticket may be removed from them). I find this a funny post because many of the Patrons that I Suggest to try skiing less advanced terrain choices, already consider themselves to be "experts". So I guess for most patrons ability is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[tamlyn]

I guess from the last post I should clarify shat I am trying to say. First I am in no way defending any skier speeding in beginners areas, overtaking other skiers unless it is safe and they call out on your left/right and even then with caution. What I am saying is I am perplexed as to why ski patrol or other mountain authority don't aggressively enforce things like congregating where trails merge, stopping in he middle of a run, making wide erratic traverses without looking uphill and generally being passive aggressive. I am also talking about the east coast. When I lived in Oregon I never ran into any of this on a regular basis. But here I have even seen a recreational skier go past a barrier during a race and run a few gates while a race was underway! While reckless skiers should have their tickets punched or taken I have never seen this happen to skiers who engaged in the other behavior I mentioned. And I am perplexed as to why, since it poses just as much of a hazard as going too fast.

I also understand what you mean about people declaring themselves experts. I don't often refer to myself this way but I was a USSA class A racer and later a pro racer. I also medaled in 26 USSA races (set to FIS specs). Most advanced skiers can't even read a FIS course much less finish one. I really hate that I posted this last paragraph but kind of felt it was insinuated I was one of those who considered myself an expert with nothing to back it up.

In closing I want to say I respect and admire the selfless ski patrol, it is often a thankless job and they are a very special group of people.

 

[Sheena]

Not to stir the pot here ( really).

But in general, I think that most ski patrol have better things to do than policing the slopes.

As for people skiing terrain that is over their heads - everyone has to start somewhere. So perhaps some of those people are starting to venture out into the more challenging terrain - and I don't think they should be punished for it. If someone is making erratic turns down an expert slope, than the uphill "expert skier" who feels comfortable on the terrain should be able to ski around the slower less advanced skier.

 

[missyd]

Here in Switzerland you seldom see ski patrols on the slopes. Only if there is an emergency and a skier/snowboarder need 1st aid help/transportation to hospital.

 

[whitewater girl]

Not to stir the pot here ( really).

But in general, I think that most ski patrol have better things to do than policing the slopes.

As for people skiing terrain that is over their heads - everyone has to start somewhere. So perhaps some of those people are starting to venture out into the more challenging terrain - and I don't think they should be punished for it. If someone is making erratic turns down an expert slope, than the uphill "expert skier" who feels comfortable on the terrain should be able to ski around the slower less advanced skier.

exactly...

(btw, while I was just learning to ski, I had someone lay into me for making wide traverses on a green slope - they wanted to zip straight down it & felt no-one ought to be in their way...there's always someone who wants to do a straight run - and we all have to learn somewhere, whatever level we're working on..oh, and yes, people DO sometimes make bad choices...)

 

[Kimmyt]

What I am saying is I am perplexed as to why ski patrol or other mountain authority don't aggressively enforce things like congregating where trails merge, stopping in he middle of a run, making wide erratic traverses without looking uphill and generally being passive aggressive. I am also talking about the east coast.

I guess I'm confused. I was under the impression that it is the uphill skier's responsibility to watch out for those downhill, no matter how erratic or stupid their behavior is.

I'm not supporting people that stop in dumb places, or those that make 'wide erratic traverses' (which I guess I could be accused of when I venture into moguls, but then as someone else mentioned everyone starts somewhere right?), I guess I'm just saying that no matter whether you want to do the whole run top to bottom without stopping doesn't matter. As much as many people would like to, you can't control everyone on the mountain, and while it might make things simpler if you could, in the end it would probably take alot of the freedom we enjoy about skiing out of the equation.

I'm just saying that if you want to have the hill to yourself and ski like there is no one else there, maybe you should not be expecting to find that on the east coast (or at least not at a resort), which on a whole is much more densely populated than the west coast and therefore has ski resorts that as a result are much more densely crowded.

There's a mountain near me whose ski patrol is famed for playing police. Catching people skiing too fast, etc. I would like to think that it has stopped or at least decreased some of the idiotic erratic out of control skiing that is rampant there, but I'm afraid I can't say that. In fact, I rarely ski there anymore.

 

[Robyn]

I really hate that I posted this last paragraph but kind of felt it was insinuated I was one of those who considered myself an expert with nothing to back it up.

I don't think anyone insinuated it was you who was stating they are an expert but potentially it was those that you see stuck on the runs.

This board has everything from first time skiers to true experts and everything else in between. Many people here have gotten themselves or had other get them into things on the mountain that are probably more challenging than they thought it would be.

Sheena also has a fantastic point in that it's quite difficult to ask the patrol to constantly police the mountain and etiquette of skiers. They have to pick and choose their battles.

 

[SkiGAP]

Here in Switzerland you seldom see ski patrols on the slopes. Only if there is an emergency and a skier/snowboarder need 1st aid help/transportation to hospital.

same for the german/austrian hills that I ski...however, I've occasionally seen instructors make comments to skiers.

 

[tamlyn]

I guess I'm confused. I was under the impression that it is the uphill skier's responsibility to watch out for those downhill, no matter how erratic or stupid their behavior is.

I agree it is the uphill skiers responsibility to watch out for the those downhill. I never said I wanted the whole mountain to myself. What I am saying is when you traverse then stop and then pull out across the hill without looking uphill first this is against skier etiquette. Congregating in merge areas or bottlenecks is just plain dangerous not to mention shows a complete lack of common sense. There is no excuse for not congregating by pulling off to the side rather than blocking the entire width of the run Unless you can ski advanced slopes on a given mountain with some proficiency (since each mountain has it's own version of what ratings are) expert slopes are not the place to learn. I solve this problem for myself by spending most of my skiing racing, rather than rec. skiing. That way I don't have to put up with the nonsense and get lift preference. If I can't find a race then I spend the day doing Nastar or find a run that is really icy and flat so there are few skiers on it. I hope this clarifies what I am trying to get across. Most of what I am saying is in the skier etiquette. As for whole mountain runs, pick up almost any book on improving your skiing and you will find one of the things encouraged is just that.
Tami (gravity girl)

 

[Robyn]

As for whole mountain runs, pick up almost any book on improving your skiing and you will find one of the things encouraged is just that.
Tami (gravity girl)

Tami, can I suggest you stop making assumptions about skiers abilities and habits on this board before getting to know us a bit? I understand you are a racer and that's great. But, the best skiers I know, including former US Ski Team racers, don't brag about and do nothing but encourage other skiers rather than calling them "inept". We have many skiers in our midst who are very, very good. Some have raced for years. Some have instructed for years. Some are big mountain skiers. Some coach ski racing. On the other hand we also have skiers who've only been a couple of times but they're falling in love with the sport we already love and that's fantastic as well.

 

[ski diva]

I think everyone here would agree, Tamlyn, that skiers should learn the responsibility code before they hit the mountain -- or at least pick it up as quickly as possible thereafter. And though this would solve a lot of problems, many people don't seem to do this. I also agree that people tackle slopes they're not ready for. We've all done it at one time or another (I know I have), with both good and bad results.

I can sense your frustration about the whole thing. I hate it when people don't look up hill and stand in the middle of trails, too. It sounds like by sticking to the race course, you've found a good way to deal with the problem. All the same, we all have to start somewhere, and we skiers with years of experience just have to suck it up and do what we're supposed to do: watch out for others further down the hill.

 

[dloveski]

As a mountain host, I occasionally have the opportunity to point out lapses in safety or trail ettiquette and most skiers or boarders are just unaware. And it's so easy to find yourself on the wrong terrain, esp. in a new resort and on low viz days.

I also expect some level of chaos and unpredictability on the green / beginner runs, so I avoid these and when on them, am super cautious because:

1. they are full of occasional skiers, beginners, learners
2. they often are connector trails to other lifts and between other runs and used as highways by faster sliders

I rarely have issues with other skiers on the more challenging terrain. I am patient----I can stand and wait for the coast to clear---it's not a race.

I don't mind coaching a skier down who is a bit unsure of how to get down. And maybe, because I'm more worried about getting down myself on some hills than about the abilities of the other skiers.

 

[tamlyn]

Robyn, I deeply apologize to anyone who thought I was referring to anyone here, I wasn't. I was merely wondering if anyone else shared my frustration. I only used the word inept because before a downhill race each racer must do a pre run of the course in front of a race jury to disqualify inept racers, so thats where my use of the word came from, it was never intended to insult a beginner or call anyone a name. I love this sport and have gone out of my way over the years to teach alot of women to ski. I was once a PSIA ski instructor but found I didn't have the patience to do it day in and day out. As for bragging, thats why I wrote in an earlier post that I hated to bring up my racing experience. While I never made the US Ski Team I did spend 2 years on the US development squad, I haven't mentioned this before because I thought you all might consider it bragging, now I find myself in a situation where I am almost ashamed to admit it. Perhaps it may be better if I just leave you before I offend anyone else. Again I apologize if I hurt anyones feelings, it was inadvertent.
Tami

 

[geargrrl]

oh, don't leave! We have lots of strong personalities and range of abilities here, all sharing the love of skiing. One has to expect that any sort of vent will generate discussion across the board. One of the things I love about this board that is there IS such a range of ablitity, interest and expertise. Usually we can all agree to disagree, or at tleast to respect varying points of view without a lot of drama, which, considering this is a women's board I think is great.

Your comments are certainly not the first here about clueless folks; in fact I think it's a common topic!

geargrrl

 

[veggielasagna]

It's definitely frustrating! I try to be aware of others around me and follow the code. I have definitely gone on trails over my head, in fact I do it just about every time out. I do however stop at the side of the trail if need be, look up hill, and get out of the way of others.

I think an important part of this is Whiteface. My home mountain is Gore, but I make it to WF several times a season. I think the very nature of the terrain there may make the problem a bit worse than other mountains. The trails are relatively steep compared to many of the smaller mountain in NY and VT. People get in over their heads because a diamond at WF is a double diamond else where. Then there is the notorious ice.

I skied there MLK day and there was a good deal skied off, but really not much ice. But for people who don't ski often it was probably pretty scary. So, in combination with the steeper terrain I don't think people necessarily mean to get in over their heads, it's just happens. You know the whole start with a green at a new resort because the ratings are diff. than other mountains thing..don't think too many do that, but probably should at WF.

Along with terrain the proximity to Lake Placid makes it a big family place. Sooooo the vacationing skier that might only get out once or twice a season decides to dive right in. Unfortunately there is not a mandatory skiers code quiz before they hand out tickets so you just have to take care of yourself I guess.

I have seen Whiteface patrol yell at racers on Mountain Run who are using it as a warm up. On that note, I've also been flagged by the "safety awareness" to slow down on the face. I really wasn't going fast, I was just doing quick short turns messing around, but it's all subjective.

I can't see patrol really doing anything about it unless they actually see people standing in the middle of the trail for an extended period or otherwise being a hazard. There just are not enough of them out there to handle policing on top of their other duties.

So yah, basically it's frustrating! I've had to stop countless times for people cutting me off or sitting/standing in the middle of the trail. If they apologize I say that's ok, give them a smile and move on. While I'm waiting I take in the scenery around me and realize how lucky I am just to be out there.

-veggielasagna

 

[ski now work later]

I could post for hours about stupid and inconsiderate skiers and riders on the lift, in the lodge, and on the mountain but this forum is less about complaining than it is about sharing our passion for skiing and that's one reason I hang around so much. I also bristled at the word "inept" because it sounded critical like the term "gaper", but now I understand why you used the word so thanks for explaining that.

What I love about this forum is that all levels of skiers are supported, from the brand new skier to the high level coaches who participate. You needn't feel ashamed of your accomplishments, consider this thread a learning experience and stick around!

 

[whitewater girl]

What I am saying is when you traverse then stop and then pull out across the hill without looking uphill first this is against skier etiquette. Congregating in merge areas or bottlenecks is just plain dangerous not to mention shows a complete lack of common sense.

Congregating on the runs is one of my pet peeves, I'll admit - hey, you wouldn't stop to talk to your friends in the middle of the road, would you (OK, some people do ...)

...I do have to defend folks traversing, "stopping", them pulling around and traversing the other way. I'm guessing it's been quite a while since you were a newbie? People in over their head often slow waaay down (sometimes to the point of actually stopping) before making that scary turn - they don't check uphill because they're not making a "stop", they're making a "turn"...I'll conceed they shouldn't be on expert slopes if they're that nervous, but as has been mentioned people end up over their heads for alot of reasons (sometimes simply stupidity) (hmmm, last time I was that far over my head, I did the whole run on my rear )

It was brought up in another thread that everyone should learn to side-slip (? is that the right term?) for those very times when they (we) find themselves in that situation...