Boot flex

[lljc00]

I know, “go see a boot fitter.”

I scored a really great deal on a pair of Atomic Hawk Ultra 90, in size 25.0/25.5. The problem is that I think they are a size too big and that I ought to be in a 24.0/24.5. So I’m looking around and see some good prices on the 80 version in my size, and wondering if that would be too soft for me.

I’m 5’6”, 115 lbs. I’m intermediate to advanced, mostly ski with my kids - the 9 year old is progressing very fast in her 4th season, while the 6 year old just started to learn.

I recorded myself trying to flex these new atomic 90 boots (in black), and my older pair of Lange delight 90s(in white) that I’m done with. What do you think - could I go down to the 80s and not find them too soft? These are already being “flexed” indoors in 70 degree temperature and even toward the end I feel getting my knees over my toes takes me to get my heels off the ground.

https://www.dropbox.com/home/Public?preview=A381377F-6316-4180-982F-CDA15B8186FC.MOV
https://www.dropbox.com/home/Public?preview=1EE829D1-F276-463A-B63D-7FE9267C4915.MOV
(Hope these links work, didn’t seem to be able to attach mov files to this post)

 

[badger]

Yep. Go see a boot fitter in a specialized store known for selling ski gear. Not a box store.
Fit is critical. Flex is secondary, and is not equal across brands or even models. Also, the same boot can change from year to year without a customer knowing it. Ask me how I know this.

I purchased a second pair of the very same boot due to packing out the first pair. I replaced the liner initially before buying the second boot. ( Liner did not work out too well). The second boot apparently was manufactured with a newer mold and it is a little wider, despite the last measurement being identical to it's predecessor.

Trying boots on with an expert will get you in the best product for your foot.

 

[lljc00]

Not sure those links work without logging in. So try these (and don't look too high up on the leg - yes, I stripped down to my undies so you can see my knees ;-p):
https://www.dropbox.com/l/scl/AAABmNz_kqxAd9BjJaacHl2WgHLlsNi0LB4
https://www.dropbox.com/l/scl/AACpx5LOW8CoyAvvqbrQTDe83gvrEmwovpo

 

[mustski]

Also, the same boot can change from year to year without a customer knowing it. Ask me how I know this.

I purchased a second pair of the very same boot due to packing out the first pair. I replaced the liner initially before buying the second boot. ( Liner did not work out too well). The second boot apparently was manufactured with a newer mold and it is a little wider, despite the last measurement being identical to it's predecessor.

Yup. I experienced this exact same thing. It took awhile for me to figure out what was wrong. I kept thinking ... but I loved these boots for 6 years! Not the same.

As for flex ... it's hard to say. A boot that is too soft will leave you feeling insecure (literally not secure in the boot) whenever you ski faster, or the snow is 3D, or the terrain gets steeper than usual. Too soft or too stiff both present problems but, while a boot can be softened, there really is no fix for a boot that is too soft.

 

[Skisailor]

In a proper fitting boot there is NO WAY your heel should be able to come up no matter how hard you flex the boot. If this is happening, you need a different boot or a different size. What shoe size do you wear?
BTW - the links don't work for me.

 

[SallyCat]

In my new boots, my heel came up a bit; a moderate heel lift solved the problem, which seemed to be poor dorsiflexion.

 

[Skisailor]

Be careful about the heel lift bandaid. I think it's pretty rare that people have too little dorsiflexion to ski. Afterall, the ski boot limits our ability to flex forward like we would in a tennis shoe, so we really only need 15 degrees or so. In my experience, the "limited dorsiflexion" excuse is one that some bootfitters use when they would rather slap in the, IMHO, greatly overused heel lift bandaid instead of fixing the more complex boot fit issue.

Heel lifts have a great capacity to really mess with our fore-aft balance by tending to put us in the back seat.

Anyway - just be aware of it. Especially if you feel like you are having trouble staying "forward" while skiing.

 

[SallyCat]

Be careful about the heel lift bandaid. I think it's pretty rare that people have too little dorsiflexion to ski. Afterall, the ski boot limits our ability to flex forward like we would in a tennis shoe, so we really only need 15 degrees or so. In my experience, the "limited dorsiflexion" excuse is one that some bootfitters use when they would rather slap in the, IMHO, greatly overused heel lift bandaid instead of fixing the more complex boot fit issue.

Heel lifts have a great capacity to really mess with our fore-aft balance by tending to put us in the back seat.

Anyway - just be aware of it. Especially if you feel like you are having trouble staying "forward" while skiing.

Agree completely; I have experienced the backseat effect of heel lifts in a previous pair of boots and initially refused them in the new ones I got in April. Ultimately, calf pain and a bit of lift off the footbed at the heel brought me back to the shop asking for a small amount of lift.

I do have shockingly terrible dorsiflexion and this time the lifts seem to help me stay connected to the front of the boot without any backseat effects. I wonder if that has to do with the boot's geometry? That is, maybe it has a lower "ramp" angle to begin with? (I know that's not the correct term, right? What I mean is that it's a unisex semi-race boot, so maybe the boot sits completely level instead of having the heel end higher than the forefoot? I've read that some recreational women's boots are canted that way.)

Anyway, anecdotally it seems that heel lifts help some women and are a nuisance to many others, and I tend to agree with you that bootfitters are too quick on the draw with them, seeing them as a cure-all or a blanket necessity in all women's boots.

 

[liquidfeet]

Another reason the heels may lift is a high ceiling in the "clog" over the forefoot, leaving air above the main part of the foot. This is usually accompanied by a too-wide cuff that just won't get tight around the lower leg just above the ankle. All that air space inside the boot will allow the heel to lift. It won't matter what amount of dorsiflexion the skier has.

In other words, perhaps the boot is the right length and the right width for the foot, but it has too much volume. Boots with low volume often have LV in their descriptor.

There are two solutions other than shims under the heels when this is the reason for the heels lifting.

1. Raise the whole foot inside the boot by putting a whole-foot shim under the liner. Add an "Eliminator Tongue" in the front of the cuff if there's air in there as well to get the cuff snug around the lower leg. The whole foot shim doesn't alter the skier's stance in the way that a heel lift does.

2. Buy new boots that fit. This requires paying attention to all three dimensions: length, width, and volume (clog height and cuff diameter). That said, getting the shell fit right in all three dimensions is not always easy for skiers with low volume feet. Manufacturers need to offer more LV boot models, and bootfitters need to be more careful about doing a shell-fit in order to put skiers in the right boot volume-wise.

 

[SallyCat]

[QUOTE="liquidfeet, post: 366742,2. ] Buy new boots that fit. This requires paying attention to all three dimensions: length, width, and volume (clog height and cuff diameter). That said, getting the shell fit right in all three dimensions is not always easy for skiers with low volume feet. Manufacturers need to offer more LV boot models, and bootfitters need to be more careful about doing a shell-fit in order to put skiers in the right boot volume-wise.[/QUOTE]

You identified the problem with suggestion#2; spot on. My feet aren’t just “low volume,” in the sense that there’s a recreational boot out there that will fit me if I just work with a good bootfitter to find it. My instep is insanely low; there just isn’t a boot out there, other than maybe a race plug, that will fit my feet so well as to prevent a smidge of lift in the heel. Heel inserts (luckily) fill the space without compromising my stance, and the overall fit and performance are amazing. Horses for courses, as they say. What may be a terrible idea for most people can be a gift from Zeus to others!