back seat???

[whitewater girl]

I keep reading in a number of threads that one's skeleton needs to be "stacked" for proper skiing posture - I read this as my hips should be aligned with my ankles & my spine over that (? - am I correct on this?)...am asking because I ALSO am reading (and hear ALOT!) not to let one's "but" stick out - uh, I have what's often termed a "bubble-but"; if I line my rear up with the back of my ankles (which I keep being told is "proper"), my hips are out in front of my toes - I am agile, so I CAN do this, but it is a profoundly unstable position...not sure what I'm looking for here beyond verification that it's my FRAME, not my padding, that I need to be concentrating on (and maybe some affirmation to help me in dealing with alot of contradictory advice...)

...hmmmm, while I'm looking for affirmation and help in sorting out and dealing with contradictory advice...

1. how far forward should I be holding my torso? (OK, maybe "stacking" my frame answers this)

2. where should I be centering my weight on my feet? (I've been told "pushing my foot back in the heel pocket", middle heel to middle arch, middle arch to middle ball, and solidly on the ball of the foot...???...several of these are impossible for me if I'm keeping my frame stacked, btw)

3. pressing one's calf against the front of the boot - the back of my calf sticks out almost as bad as my rear - the front of my calf is ALWAYS pushed firmly against the front of my boot (even before it's buckled)...trying to do this seems to make my skiing worse, not better (tends to pull my heel out of the heel pocket when in motion)...what am I actually looking for/trying to accomplish here? (or should I, again, work on stacking my frame & forget about this?)

the folks giving contradictory advice include several instructors I've had, so "get a lesson" isn't going to help here (in fact the last instructor seem down-right "confused" as to whether I was "in the back-seat" or not - until I started feeling out of my comfort zone & started actually back-seating it; then he obviously felt more in HIS comfort zone...)

Thanks!

 

[perma-grin]

Hmm now let me see how best to explain this with out the benifit of a diagram. I'll do it with letters. The area from the ball to center of the arch of your foot is A. your ankle is B. Your Knee is C. your Hip is D. Your Shoulders are E and your head is F. Your elbows are G and your hands are H. You correctly stack by creating angles from letter A to letter B to letter C the line that will very in length dependant on the steepness of the slope will be the one between A and C. That will be your first narrow triangle. Your second triangle is from Letter B To C To D this triangle should have it's longest line drawn between the letters B and D. And will very dependant on the steepness of the slope. Now flex your ankles (B) enough that your letter D is lined up over the area between letters A and B (Your foot.) If D is past letter A you are over flexing and hanging on the front of your boots ( or on a reallly steep slope!). If your letter D is behind letter B you are in the back seat ( and hurtleling out of control) Lol!. The second half of this equation is the angles created from the letters D to E to G(Hips, Shoulders, Elbows) these angles should match the angles created by the letters BCD. These angles very by how wide or narrow you make the angles between ABC. ( opening or closing= flexing your ankles.) All of your angles should be matching in size DEPENDANT on the STEEPNESS of the slope your skiing on, a less steep slope will constitute longer thiner triangles created between A<B<C , B<C<D, and D<C<E. (standing taller but not straight without angles) You should be able to drop a plump line from letter D between Letters A and B with the line coming down from letter E being in front of the line coming down from letter D. The lines of these triangles will move (will get narrower or wider) dependant on the steepness of the slope. When your Instructor tells you to get taller or lower ask them to clarifiy that . Do they want you to get taller from the ankles ABC triangle, or BCD triangle, or from the angles above the hips (D) By not breaking at the waist which will cause you to drop the line from D to the ground to behind your heels=B, and put you in the back seat. I try to think of centering my hips over my arches and always keeping my angles from heels to knee to hips matched to the angles from hips to shoulders to elbows. I'm sure this was as clear as mud I'm lost without a ski pole to draw in the snow with! Lol! I guess this is why no one has ever asked me to write a training manuel!!!Lol! Sorry I at least I tried.

 

[MemilyG]

I don't think I get the "don't poke your butt out" part. Don't racers always have their bottoms waaaayyy up?

 

[Ski Spirit]

MemilyG,
I'm not the best person to explain this.

Its one thing to read something and intellectually understand where everything should go and its another to actually FEEL it with your body. You want to aim for understanding the feeling.

Once you can tell the difference between how the skis feel when you're stacked and have your weight balanced over the skis correctly vs. how it feels to have some part of your body out of balance, the various ways of describing it will make sense to you.

A lot of instructors say your shins should stay against the front of your boots as though you were holding a quarter there - don't drop it. Its your weight forward in your boots that controls the skis. If your shins are at the back of your boots, your butt is definitely back, your weight is back and your skis are moving out in front of you--you are struggling for control of the skis.

The stacked idea works if you understand it--you are stacking the weight of various body parts over each other so that no body part weight causes balance to go astray. Re: hips, one instructor once said pretend you are pregnant--your hips end up being kind of tucked up...not sticking out.

Hopefully this hasn't caused further confusion. My advice is to get a lot of mileage, then you'll begin to feel more what people are talking about!

 

[whitewater girl]

I'm sure this was as clear as mud I'm lost without a ski pole to draw in the snow with! Lol! I guess this is why no one has ever asked me to write a training manuel!!!Lol! Sorry I at least I tried.

actually, while it did take some diagraming, that helps ALOT! Thank You! I'll be working on my angles tomorrow on the hill!

 

[Ski Spirit]

Also,when you buckle your boots, make sure your heel is seated firmly in the heel pocket. If your boots are right for you and buckled properly, your heel should not come out of the heel pocket by having your shins firmly against the front of the boot.

In my opinion, the #1 thing is to keep your shins firmly against the front of the boot--this gives you control. If that causes your skiing to get worse, you may need to get your boots checked by a good bootfitter. Boots are THE most important piece of equipment. How you use the boots, in my opinion, is the foundation for skiing. You can't use the boots (flex them by flexing your ankles) unless you're in the right spot in them and you're not moving around in your boots and that also means you have to have your body parts stacked so they're helping to keep you in control.

 

[Pequenita]

am asking because I ALSO am reading (and hear ALOT!) not to let one's "but" stick out - uh, I have what's often termed a "bubble-but"; if I line my rear up with the back of my ankles (which I keep being told is "proper"), my hips are out in front of my toes - I am agile, so I CAN do this, but it is a profoundly unstable position...not sure what I'm looking for here beyond verification that it's my FRAME, not my padding, that I need to be concentrating on (and maybe some affirmation to help me in dealing with alot of contradictory advice...)

Regarding not letting your "butt stick out" (and having never been pregnant), I think the statement is more imagery than reality because people do have bubble butts. Instead, I believe it's referring to a pelvic tilt. If you have a bubble butt, your butt will still stick out whatever you do, right? So the concept is to think about not having it stick out by making adjustments in your pelvis (rather than your ankles, where it sounds like you're getting your flexibility to get your back end over the ankles).

Try this without getting into a skiing stance. First, stand in your normal upright neutral position. The top of your pelvis is tilting forward. Now activate your pelvis and push the bottomforward as if trying to tuck in your butt. That's what I think "don't let your butt stick out" means.

 

[MemilyG]

MemilyG,
I'm not the best person to explain this.

Its one thing to read something and intellectually understand where everything should go and its another to actually FEEL it with your body. You want to aim for understanding the feeling.

Once you can tell the difference between how the skis feel when you're stacked and have your weight balanced over the skis correctly vs. how it feels to have some part of your body out of balance, the various ways of describing it will make sense to you.

A lot of instructors say your shins should stay against the front of your boots as though you were holding a quarter there - don't drop it. Its your weight forward in your boots that controls the skis. If your shins are at the back of your boots, your butt is definitely back, your weight is back and your skis are moving out in front of you--you are struggling for control of the skis.

The stacked idea works if you understand it--you are stacking the weight of various body parts over each other so that no body part weight causes balance to go astray. Re: hips, one instructor once said pretend you are pregnant--your hips end up being kind of tucked up...not sticking out.

Hopefully this hasn't caused further confusion. My advice is to get a lot of mileage, then you'll begin to feel more what people are talking about!

That actually makes it a lot clearer. Thanks for the explanation, Ski Spirit.

 

[geargrrl]

Hah, getting a sense of what the back seat ISN'T...

When I read the bits about alignment being stacked correctly (hip/knee/ankle etc) thisis what comes to mind for me-

What worked for me was this: stand on the flats in a neutral stance. (this is going to be hard to describe) With your feet secured in your boots, you'll almost sway forewards and backwards. You'll be too far forward, then centered, then in the back seat, then centered... you should get the idea. The concept is to feel the point where your skeleten supports itself in perfect balance/alignment, balanced over the whole foot.

Another way to get the feel for it is to ski a couple of greens or easy blues with your boots unbuckeld. Yes, this can be done and yes it will be a relevation.

 

[SkiGAP]

Another way to get the feel for it is to ski a couple of greens or easy blues with your boots unbuckeld. Yes, this can be done and yes it will be a relevation.

My instructor had me do this almost from the start last year. I *think* it worked. Uh, in the new boots I have now, it doesn't matter - even unbuckled they hold me firmly in place...

However I still feel sometimes as though my "B-D" line is too short (BCD angle too small) compared to my upper body lean/positioning. But I am working on it.

 

[PNWSkier]

Hmm now let me see how best to explain this with out the benifit of a diagram. I'll do it with letters. The area from the ball to center of the arch of your foot is A. your ankle is B. Your Knee is C. your Hip is D. Your Shoulders are E and your head is F. Your elbows are G and your hands are H. You correctly stack by creating angles from letter A to letter B to letter C the line that will very in length dependant on the steepness of the slope will be the one between A and C. That will be your first narrow triangle. Your second triangle is from Letter B To C To D this triangle should have it's longest line drawn between the letters B and D. And will very dependant on the steepness of the slope. Now flex your ankles (B) enough that your letter D is lined up over the area between letters A and B (Your foot.) If D is past letter A you are over flexing and hanging on the front of your boots ( or on a reallly steep slope!). If your letter D is behind letter B you are in the back seat ( and hurtleling out of control) Lol!. The second half of this equation is the angles created from the letters D to E to G(Hips, Shoulders, Elbows) these angles should match the angles created by the letters BCD. These angles very by how wide or narrow you make the angles between ABC. ( opening or closing= flexing your ankles.) All of your angles should be matching in size DEPENDANT on the STEEPNESS of the slope your skiing on, a less steep slope will constitute longer thiner triangles created between A<B<C , B<C<D, and D<C<E. (standing taller but not straight without angles) You should be able to drop a plump line from letter D between Letters A and B with the line coming down from letter E being in front of the line coming down from letter D. The lines of these triangles will move (will get narrower or wider) dependant on the steepness of the slope. When your Instructor tells you to get taller or lower ask them to clarifiy that . Do they want you to get taller from the ankles ABC triangle, or BCD triangle, or from the angles above the hips (D) By not breaking at the waist which will cause you to drop the line from D to the ground to behind your heels=B, and put you in the back seat. I try to think of centering my hips over my arches and always keeping my angles from heels to knee to hips matched to the angles from hips to shoulders to elbows. I'm sure this was as clear as mud I'm lost without a ski pole to draw in the snow with! Lol! I guess this is why no one has ever asked me to write a training manuel!!!Lol! Sorry I at least I tried.

Who ever said Geometry means nothing outside of school? I should have listened more.

 

[whitewater girl]

Another way to get the feel for it is to ski a couple of greens or easy blues with your boots unbuckeld. Yes, this can be done and yes it will be a relevation.

I've actually done that by accident a few times (skiing with that little switch on my boots flipped to "walk" is a similar feeling, though a bit less drastic :rolleyes)...will have to try it deliberatly!

Who ever said Geometry means nothing outside of school? I should have listened more.

I was always good at geometry! Probably why I so like the explaination!

 

[whitewater girl]

tried watching my angles today on the hill, but unfortunately came to the realization that it's really, really hard to stay out of the back seat when you're actively shivering (man! it was cold out there today!) watching angles will have to wait 'till I head up dressed a bit warmer!

 

[MaryLou]

Wow, you guys do lots of thinking! Can't you tell if you're balanced or not? I readjust/figure out my balance before any challenging trail (lots of time in blues/greens with kids) - like trying to balance in sand vs. on pavement, same with ski conditions, need to be changed up continually. Sometimes I have no idea what conditions or a trail will be like, so I'll test my stance/balance in the beginning - move a little forward, more center, more back...see what works.

Just had to lol about the butt - I've got a nice sized one but never thought about where it should be in my balance. Maybe I've had it too long so I'm used to balancing it lol.

To me, I'm balanced when I'm as firm as a telephone pole and perfectly squared so a mack truck could hit me and I wouldn't budge. Don't know how to turn that into a ski tip lol...but if you feel it, you know it, and can plow through anything without care. Once you get off balance a snowflake could topple you.

 

[whitewater girl]

well I've been working on my angles and it's working - as much on keeping my hands forward as my body! And the tip on trying to keep my butt tucked helps too (doesn't actually stay tucked, but engaging those muscles does keep it - and me - forward)...many thanks for all your help!

To me, I'm balanced when I'm as firm as a telephone pole and perfectly squared so a mack truck could hit me and I wouldn't budge. Don't know how to turn that into a ski tip lol...but if you feel it, you know it, and can plow through anything without care. Once you get off balance a snowflake could topple you.

unfortunately, I seem to be able to "balance" in poor form (had a friend ask me this weekend "don't you ever fall?") - solid, yes, but control at even moderate speed was elusive - I am starting now to ski faster (relatively!), with better form, fewer traverses (almost none), less effort (which = longer! )...oh, and no more "helpful" advice since I started watching my angles!

 

[MaryLou]

well I've been working on my angles and it's working - as much on keeping my hands forward as my body! And the tip on trying to keep my butt tucked helps too (doesn't actually stay tucked, but engaging those muscles does keep it - and me - forward)...many thanks for all your help!



unfortunately, I seem to be able to "balance" in poor form (had a friend ask me this weekend "don't you ever fall?") - solid, yes, but control at even moderate speed was elusive - I am starting now to ski faster (relatively!), with better form, fewer traverses (almost none), less effort (which = longer! )...oh, and no more "helpful" advice since I started watching my angles!

Lol, I suppose bad form could come with balance, but sit sounds like it'd be hard to improve. Sounds like you're getting there - you've learned the benefits of finding the sweet spot. I definitely do a posture check before skiing - I need to suck in/strengthen my abs and straigten my lower back before each run - not natural since I'm a desk worker lol.

 

[MaineSkiLady]

Wow, you guys do lots of thinking! Can't you tell if you're balanced or not?

Actually, this is one of the more finesse aspects of skiing that takes awhile, so----no. Especially for the many here who are learning and trying to improve, haven't been at it for a lifetime and are adults.

Mentioned above, it's the subtle fore/aft foot pressure, and there's a terrific drill that used to be done by instructors called the "falling leaf." Tried to find a video online, will post if I do. Marvelous for feeling the forward pressure, rearward pressure based on both feet and body positions, and confirms "center." Would be somewhat wordy if I tried to describe. If I can figure out a concise way, I'll post back.

Getting centered and feeling fore/aft is probably the one thing I work on most heavily at the start of the ski season. Once it clicks in, "let's go." But I seem to need to refresh every Nov.

 

[perma-grin]

Hey MSL the falling leaf is still taught as a foundation excersize at all levels of skiing. I routinely use it when training our L2 instructors that are working toward L3. I have my ski team kids play with it a lot also! From there we work into forward side slip to pivot slips then pivots with a pause to reinforce stacking. When done correctly falling leaves are one of the most graceful excercizes to watch,when demonstrated correctly they should look effortless. Sublime. I practice them on a daily basis. As for thinking about it Marylou. I have to think about it, how to explain it in many different ways, about how to feel it, for all types of learning styles. It literally is my job, it is what I get paid for LOL!!!

 

[MaineSkiLady]

Thanks, perm - I think my "used to" reference and wording were due to the fact that DH is a currently inactive instructor, so he's a bit out of the loop after 6 years of non-teaching. Glad to hear it is still heavily in use - you are right, it is a lovely drill to watch - and WAY harder to execute, at least gracefully, than it looks! I just can't keep it going fluidly for as long as he does.

 

[volklgirl]

I do falling leaf, pivot slip, and side slip exercises and 360 spins daily as well. They're great exercises for so many things!