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Amazing article on women's gear and the attitude of "make it pink"

Have any of you played around with your ramp angle?


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JennyNCski

Diva in Training
https://www.realskiers.com/profiles/the-wacky-world-of-womens-equipment/

Excellent read. The excerpt below is exactly what I was dealing with as far as boot fit.

"When product development authority David Bertoni was international marketing manager for Salomon bindings in the mid-90’s, he conducted a wide-ranging study of ramp angle, known in binding engineering circles as delta. The particular ramp angle he examined wasn’t created by raising the heel in the boot but by adding shims between the ski and binding. The study showed that among men there were very different needs and desires for less or more ramp angle depending on the skier’s activity/arena. Mogul skiers, for example, had to have more ramp angle for their event; it didn’t matter if the heel position compromised edging at the bottom of the turn because most mogul skiers never finish a turn. Downhill racers had exactly the opposite requirement; without a lower heel to apply pressure past the turn apex, racers don’t finish the course, period. Recreational men were somewhere in between, making the overall picture complicated.

The women’s results were so different from men’s that Bertoni recalls he found them “startling.” Every woman in the study, from Olympian to terminal intermediate, felt more comfort and control when raised 5mm to 15mm higher in the heel. While Bertoni’s delta study didn’t examine increasing heel elevation in the boot, he believes that any change in the angle of the foot relative to the ski, however it’s accomplished, will reposition a woman’s center of mass forward, towards the ball of the foot. If the increase in heel height is effected inside the boot, it will have the multiple benefits of raising the calf slightly out of the boot, increasing leverage over the tongue and raising the ankle relative to the cuff pivot, all of which help the woman achieve a comfortable, balanced athletic position. Bertoni compares it to the body positioning a point guard assumes when an opponent with the ball is bearing down, on the balls of the feet, ready to go in any direction.

Pressed to further illuminate what was meant by “comfort and control,” Bertoni expounded. “In the end, it’s a balance issue. The women felt stronger and more agile because they were in a better, balanced position. The reason is, by raising the woman’s heel relative to the ski she achieves a mechanical advantage over the boot she doesn’t have in the lower position.”

One possible stance “correction” Bertoni counsels against is increasing the forward lean angle of the upper cuff. “The more you increase forward inclination, the more the butt drops and weight shifts rearward,” he notes, or exactly the opposite of the intended effect."
 

Obrules15

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
One possible stance “correction” Bertoni counsels against is increasing the forward lean angle of the upper cuff. “The more you increase forward inclination, the more the butt drops and weight shifts rearward,” he notes, or exactly the opposite of the intended effect."

I have had a lot of issues dialing in my fore/aft setup and done a ton of experimentation. At this point while I appreciate that at least the "women's setups" give us one additional way of doing things, there is not enough appreciation of the individual factors that go into each persons needs.

Even the guy you quote says don't increase the the forward lean angle, but with super-long femurs and limited dorsiflexion I had been put in an upright boot which was a disaster. I experimented with different forward lean angles and now am in a boot with a 16* of forward lean.

But no one talks about the things that go into determining this or setting a standard to look at who would benefit from a certain kind of setup (I advocate a femur length to height ratio to identify skiers that might be sensitive to delta).

I just wish that there was more information immediately available on what kind of setups work best for different skiers. All men aren't the same, nor are all women.............
 

PowderNomad

Certified Ski Diva
Great article.

I am 5'8", wear a 26.5 boot, and am a fairly aggressive skier, so I've generally used men's skis and boots (although I did have a pair or K2 PhatLuvs for a few seasons that I loved and perhaps this article helps explain why!). But I found myself nodding in agreement as I read this article as I have experienced some of these same issues. I have custom insoles to help raise my heels, as well as custom molded liners -- but the pain on the top of my foot, ramp angle of tech bindings which I use in the backcountry and inbounds, and forward cuff lean are complicating factors to these adjustments. Boot liners that will actually hold down my skinny ankles after even a few days of use are like a unicorn -- I don't think they actually exist although I wish they did...

I have learned a lot by trial and (expensive) error, and it is frustrating that more is not done to study and design products from the ground up that address women's ski needs, especially in boots and liners. Products developed after actually studying women skiers won't meet the needs of all women but I have a strong hunch they will meet the needs of more of us.
 

JennyNCski

Diva in Training
Great article.

I am 5'8", wear a 26.5 boot, and am a fairly aggressive skier, so I've generally used men's skis and boots (although I did have a pair or K2 PhatLuvs for a few seasons that I loved and perhaps this article helps explain why!). But I found myself nodding in agreement as I read this article as I have experienced some of these same issues. I have custom insoles to help raise my heels, as well as custom molded liners -- but the pain on the top of my foot, ramp angle of tech bindings which I use in the backcountry and inbounds, and forward cuff lean are complicating factors to these adjustments. Boot liners that will actually hold down my skinny ankles after even a few days of use are like a unicorn -- I don't think they actually exist although I wish they did...

Yeah, because raising the heel inside of the boot puts more pressure on your instep and it sounds like you have skinny, narrow feet. I wonder if adding shims between your boot and binding to adjust your ramp angle and ditching the heel lift would help with your instep pain. And have you ever tried these?:

https://www.stopheellift.com/products/shl-version2

They could be crap, but sounds like they are designed to compensate for skinny ankles without having to overtighten your boots.

Also, this product is supposed to help with forward cuff lean and its placement doesn't put pressure on the instep:

https://www.tognar.com/the-eliminator-custom-tongue-shims/

Just suggestions. I've been hitting the forums pretty hard lately. It sounds like you have way more experience than I do, though.
 

PowderNomad

Certified Ski Diva
Yeah, because raising the heel inside of the boot puts more pressure on your instep and it sounds like you have skinny, narrow feet. I wonder if adding shims between your boot and binding to adjust your ramp angle and ditching the heel lift would help with your instep pain. And have you ever tried these?:

https://www.stopheellift.com/products/shl-version2

They could be crap, but sounds like they are designed to compensate for skinny ankles without having to overtighten your boots.

Also, this product is supposed to help with forward cuff lean and its placement doesn't put pressure on the instep:

https://www.tognar.com/the-eliminator-custom-tongue-shims/

Just suggestions. I've been hitting the forums pretty hard lately. It sounds like you have way more experience than I do, though.

Thanks! Very helpful. I always end up adding those L-bracket things around my ankles as my liners pack out. They kinda help although they push your foot/ankle forward a bit too much at first. The tongue shim is an interesting idea although it might limit my range of motion in touring mode. I think I'll pick up a pair and try it!

As for angles, Dynafit bindings which I've skied for years already have quite a high ramp angle (delta between boot level above ski at heel piece and boot level at toe piece) and that can be part of the problem. It was okay with my old Dynafit TLT5 boots which were fairly flexible but really was killing me when I got stiffer Dynafit Mercury boots last year. I was sitting back to compensate for feeling thrown forward and my quads were **dying.** (The poo stance look was also not very elegant.....:becky:). I've since switched to G3 Ion bindings with lower angle and that has helped me be more centered.

I find raising my heel inside the boot pretty necessary to get my ankle in line with the boot pivot so that I have more power and control. It would surely decrease my foot pain to eliminate the heel rise in the footbed but I just don't crank the instep buckle down as much and/or I just suck it up and ski (and complain later).
 

JennyNCski

Diva in Training
I just wish that there was more information immediately available on what kind of setups work best for different skiers. All men aren't the same, nor are all women.............

Agreed! We are all individuals with different heights, weights, ranges of motion, strengths, and centers of gravity. Stop lumping everyone together. What works for one person won't work for another.

I'm surprised that you like more forward lean with limited dorsiflexion because the lean increases your resting dorsiflexion, but then you don't have the range to go much farther beyond that. This demonstrates your point perfectly. It's not just your ankle range of motion that affects your preference, but your center of mass and how it changes with your ankles in a position of more dorsiflexion. You have to consider the whole person and people don't fit neatly into manufactured boxes.

Femur length to height ratio would definitely help, but there are so many more variables. You also have to consider the size of the calf muscles themselves because if they are larger than "normal", then they can push your tibia forward in the boot causing too much forward lean. It's hard to standardize. Stance analysis in your boots is certainly helpful. I added a pic below from a local master boot fitted that explains stance really well. It helped me figure out that I had too much forward lean in my boots.
 

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JennyNCski

Diva in Training
As for angles, Dynafit bindings which I've skied for years already have quite a high ramp angle (delta between boot level above ski at heel piece and boot level at toe piece) and that can be part of the problem. It was okay with my old Dynafit TLT5 boots which were fairly flexible but really was killing me when I got stiffer Dynafit Mercury boots last year. I was sitting back to compensate for feeling thrown forward and my quads were **dying.** (The poo stance look was also not very elegant.....:becky:). I've since switched to G3 Ion bindings with lower angle and that has helped me be more centered

Those Mercury boots have an adjustable forward lean, you should play around with it and do a squat test in them. Might have to place something under either the toe or heel of the boot to account for the ramp angle of your new bindings, but that should help get you out of the "poo stance" even more than with just the different ramp angle of the new bindings. Check out the chart below for the squat test details.

You win quote of the night, by the way.
 

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bounceswoosh

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Hmmm.

What I got out of the article:

Some women's skis are built with ramp angle
Then let's put some ramp angle on your boot
And of course (not from the article) some bindings create more ramp angle ....

Do you see where I'm going with this? Too much of a good thing is a problem.

My boot fitter put me in heel lifts. They help a ton. I do not think that I would want to then ALSO have a pair of skis or bindings designed with ramp angle, especially as I own multiple pairs of skis ....
 

Obrules15

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Agreed! We are all individuals with different heights, weights, ranges of motion, strengths, and centers of gravity. Stop lumping everyone together. What works for one person won't work for another.

I'm surprised that you like more forward lean with limited dorsiflexion because the lean increases your resting dorsiflexion, but then you don't have the range to go much farther beyond that. This demonstrates your point perfectly. It's not just your ankle range of motion that affects your preference, but your center of mass and how it changes with your ankles in a position of more dorsiflexion. You have to consider the whole person and people don't fit neatly into manufactured boxes.

Femur length to height ratio would definitely help, but there are so many more variables. You also have to consider the size of the calf muscles themselves because if they are larger than "normal", then they can push your tibia forward in the boot causing too much forward lean. It's hard to standardize. Stance analysis in your boots is certainly helpful. I added a pic below from a local master boot fitted that explains stance really well. It helped me figure out that I had too much forward lean in my boots.

I have a heel lift so I can tolerate the 16* of forward lean. I am definitely an outlier, but at 5'3.5"ish with a 32 inseam, and a big rearward angled butt extreme measures are necessary. It takes a lot to neutralize the effects of my femurs. I'm even trying out heavier poles this year (why not, they were $25 and they're PINK!).

I've actually tested multiple incremental things to get dialed in properly. I've found that I have to experiment to know what works for me. I've had multiple different ramp angles, boot forward lean, many, many different spoiler thicknesses, and a few different cant angles and next I'll experiment with heavier poles.

At one point I built spoilers out of bootfitters foam (with sticky backs) and would take a run and peel off a piece of spoiler one after another after another. At the end of last season I was working with moving a velcro spoiler around and up and down to figure out optimal placement.

But what you said is exactly right, there are sooooo many variables and no one seems to keep track of them. One of my biggest frustrations was that I would make a change to address one thing, but not realize that the effect it had on something else. It would screw up my skiing and take forever to figure out.

Yes, femur length is by no means sufficient but I'm trying to come up with a simple model that bootfitters could use as a screening tool to identify people who might be sensitive to delta. I feel like male/female isn't sufficient, but there would be no way to really do a truly complex calculation at the entry level.

I thought if after measuring feet on a brannock bootfitters could just run a tape measure up a thigh, ask a height and plug that into an equation or an app it would be an easy way to identify people who might need extra attention to their fore/aft setup.
 

Obrules15

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Hmmm.

What I got out of the article:

Some women's skis are built with ramp angle
Then let's put some ramp angle on your boot
And of course (not from the article) some bindings create more ramp angle ....

Do you see where I'm going with this? Too much of a good thing is a problem.

My boot fitter put me in heel lifts. They help a ton. I do not think that I would want to then ALSO have a pair of skis or bindings designed with ramp angle, especially as I own multiple pairs of skis ....
Biggest Problem is no one keeps track of all these different angles. If everything had the info reasonably available and people knew to check it'd be nice.
 

SallyCat

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
@PowderNomad You've maybe already tried them, but I'll throw out that I am also 5'8" with 26.5 boots and extremely narrow feet. It was an expensive solution, but I ended up getting ZipFit liners and adding extra cork to the the ankle area to take up the extra volume there. I find that I have excellent heel hold and a very snug fit now. The Zip Fits also allow you to add cork filler to the tongue of the liner, though I have not done that.
I'm not as advanced a skier as you and I feel a little silly having such high-end liners, but I had a really tough time getting a good boot fit, and I'm just happy to have something that works.
 

liquidfeet

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Bertoni's study was done in the mid-90s. I wonder if it's still applicable? Here's the quote I'm referring to from that article:
"When product development authority David Bertoni was international marketing manager for Salomon bindings in the mid-90’s, he conducted a wide-ranging study of ramp angle, known in binding engineering circles as delta. The particular ramp angle he examined wasn’t created by raising the heel in the boot but by adding shims between the ski and binding. The study showed that among men there were very different needs and desires for less or more ramp angle depending on the skier’s activity/arena."
 

contesstant

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Hmmm.

What I got out of the article:

Some women's skis are built with ramp angle
Then let's put some ramp angle on your boot
And of course (not from the article) some bindings create more ramp angle ....

Do you see where I'm going with this? Too much of a good thing is a problem.

My boot fitter put me in heel lifts. They help a ton. I do not think that I would want to then ALSO have a pair of skis or bindings designed with ramp angle, especially as I own multiple pairs of skis ....
Yes! Those of us with shorter BSLs already have "built in" ramp because the delta is not accounted for with smaller boots. I've actually had toe shims put on boots in the past to adjust for this. I am really sensitive to bindings that have too much ramp.

I'd like to see a more current study on modern skis.
 

tinymoose

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Is there a difference in lifting the heel in the boot vs external to the boot? Because for me, raising my heel in the boot actually puts me in a worse position... in the backseat.
 

mustski

Angel Diva
Although I would love to be able to use heel lifts - limited dorsiflexion in the ankle- they don't work in my current boots. I have 3 buckle Kryzmas and the heel lift pushed me too high in the heel pocket. I kept slipping forward in the boot which caused a myriad of pain problems. I finally ripped the heel lifts out one day and voila! The boots held my heel in place. Next boots, I may try heel lifts again.
 

JennyNCski

Diva in Training
Is there a difference in lifting the heel in the boot vs external to the boot? Because for me, raising my heel in the boot actually puts me in a worse position... in the backseat.

Lifting the heel inside the boot will fill more boot volume and possibly put pressure on your instep because it is cchanging the relationship between your foot and the boot, whereas, with shims you are changing the relationship between your boot and bindings. Both will change the angle of your foot in the relation to your skis, but heel lifts will limit your dorsiflexion more.
 

JennyNCski

Diva in Training
Hmmm.

What I got out of the article:

Some women's skis are built with ramp angle
Then let's put some ramp angle on your boot
And of course (not from the article) some bindings create more ramp angle ....

Do you see where I'm going with this? Too much of a good thing is a problem.

My boot fitter put me in heel lifts. They help a ton. I do not think that I would want to then ALSO have a pair of skis or bindings designed with ramp angle, especially as I own multiple pairs of skis ....

Well, getting the perfect boot fit is always ideal, but sometimes boots are perfect in every way but one, and you have to alter your bindings to get the setup you want. And I don't think that people need both a heel lift and shims, unless they have skis/bindings with different ramp angles that might need to be accounted for.

I'm definitely not throwing all my eggs into the ramp angle basket, but it's nice to know all of the options you have for dialing in your setup. I have had 2 subpar seasons feeling like I was just not cut out for skiing, all because my forward lean in my boots was so great that I couldn't even fully extend my knees and hips in them. I have large calves and due to poor boot fit, I stayed in the backseat because of it. I know you don't want newbies to focus too much on all the details and lose sight of working to correct form and blaming the gear, but I wish I could have known earlier that I was fighting against an unbalanced stance. I took multiple lessons and even got fitted by a master boot fitter and no one ever pointed this out to me. I had to dig around forums to find out what the issue was.

I know I only shared one part of the article, but what I got out of it is that very few manufacturers actually focus on women's needs. We are an afterthought. This happens in so many industries, even pharmaceutical. But we are here and we aren't just skiing because our husbands/boyfriends/guy friends dragged us into it. We do it because we love it and we want the same attention to suiting our needs that the men get. And you can't just say all women need this in comparison with what all men need. It is more individualized than that.
 

bounceswoosh

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Well, getting the perfect boot fit is always ideal, but sometimes boots are perfect in every way but one, and you have to alter your bindings to get the setup you want. And I don't think that people need both a heel lift and shims, unless they have skis/bindings with different ramp angles that might need to be accounted for.

My problem is that this product information isn't right out there for the consumer to consider. So it would be easy to end up with a combined additional ramp angle from skis, bindings, AND boots. Options are great, but they have to be options - ie, something you choose.
 

contesstant

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Is there a difference in lifting the heel in the boot vs external to the boot? Because for me, raising my heel in the boot actually puts me in a worse position... in the backseat.
Yes, there is. I actually at one time had heel lifts INSIDE the boot and a toe shim on the OUTSIDE of the boot. @SnowHot was able to explain why it made sense better than I can.
 

ski diva

Administrator
Staff member
I know I only shared one part of the article, but what I got out of it is that very few manufacturers actually focus on women's needs. We are an afterthought. This happens in so many industries, even pharmaceutical. But we are here and we aren't just skiing because our husbands/boyfriends/guy friends dragged us into it. We do it because we love it and we want the same attention to suiting our needs that the men get. And you can't just say all women need this in comparison with what all men need. It is more individualized than that.

I think things may be getting better, at least in a limited way. Blizzard recently launched its Women to Women Initiative, which reaffirms its commitment to the women's market. As part of this, they've made a concerted effort to reimagine women's boots from the ground up. I interviewed their Director of Marketing not long ago (she's incredibly devoted to the company's women's efforts), and here's what she said about boots:

We have a separate initiative called Project 165 — 165 is the Pantone color of our Tecnica orange – which we started a while ago. It’s made up of five of the people we think are the best bootfitters in the country. Four years ago we put them in a room and said, ‘Okay, blank slate. Design your dream boot.’ The end result was our Mach 1 collection of boots, which has been on the market for three years and has been hugely successful. We work with them on our other boots, too. So at Park City, we sat around and came up with all these different issues that women have with boots, and then brought in the guys from Project 165. They fit a lot of women’s boots so they see a lot of the same things. We all talked about the issues women have, as well as what women want. Then they went away and worked with our product development team to develop solutions.

Full disclosure: I have not tried their women's Mach 1 boots, so I have no idea what they're really like. But I applaud their efforts and their commitment to making women's gear better.

You can find my full interview with her here.
 
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