Affordable ski towns

[sibhusky]

I used to be a designer for residential and commercial builds. I learned who the best contractors were in my area. My suggestion for people considering builders would be to talk to local designers and architects. Architects tend to work with many builders/developers and may be partial or biased, but they can be informative if they are willing to be forthright. Designers are usually quite knowledgeable about the builders on a variety of levels. Free information from people that have an inside perspective!

I talked to banks, architects, plumbing supply places and other builders. Then winnowed it down to 3, then finally one. Extremely successful experience. Unfortunately, the guy retired. But we're still happy 20 years later.

I know another couple who picked their builder because he had a lot of pictures in glossy magazines. They rant.

 

[badger]

I talked to banks, architects, plumbing supply places and other builders. Then winnowed it down to 3, then finally one. Extremely successful experience. Unfortunately, the guy retired. But we're still happy 20 years later.

I know another couple who picked their builder because he had a lot of pictures in glossy magazines. They rant.

You sure did the right thing! And it also comes down to chemistry with the contractor. Makes a huge difference! I have had meetings with potential clients and architects and turned down jobs because my Spidey senses told me the working relationship might be problematic.

 

[sibhusky]

You sure did the right thing! And it also comes down to chemistry with the contractor. Makes a huge difference! I have had meetings with potential clients and architects and turned down jobs because my Spidey senses told me the working relationship might be problematic.

One of the final three was eliminated when both my husband and my daughter told me that the builder and I would be at each other's throats the entire time. I didn't see it, but they were adamant.

 

[NWSkiGirl]

Does anyone think the Covid trend of moving to a rural area is shifting? Are people moving back to the city now?

 

[marzNC]

Does anyone think the Covid trend of moving to a rural area is shifting? Are people moving back to the city now?

Depends on the region. The high prices in some cities is discouraging some people from moving in. At the same time, it's encouraging developers and builders to start new residential or mixed-use projects.

 

[Christy]

Does anyone think the Covid trend of moving to a rural area is shifting? Are people moving back to the city now?

I know everyone talked as if that were happening during Covid, but it doesn't seem that the stats ultimately backed that up. People who left generally only did so temporarily. I've seen other reporting/studies like the one below, and this corresponds with my experience in Seattle. I know people that kind of moved to their vacation homes for a while, or who bought a second home, but not anyone that actually moved.

The Pandemic Didn’t Upend US Geography

Three years after Covid began, big cities are still standing. But work and housing shifts are translating to some enduring changes.

www.bloomberg.com

 

[jthree]

I know everyone talked as if that were happening during Covid, but it doesn't seem that the stats ultimately backed that up. People who left generally only did so temporarily. I've seen other reporting/studies like the one below, and this corresponds with my experience in Seattle. I know people that kind of moved to their vacation homes for a while, or who bought a second home, but not anyone that actually moved.

The Pandemic Didn’t Upend US Geography

Three years after Covid began, big cities are still standing. But work and housing shifts are translating to some enduring changes.

www.bloomberg.com

There's been a definite shift in Vermont, although the subsequent housing shortage/cost increases have started to reverse the trend:

Census shows explosion of migration into Vermont in pandemic’s 1st year - VTDigger

More than 4,800 people came to Vermont between 2020 and 2021 — reversing years of population loss from people moving out of the state.

vtdigger.org

Housing Crisis Is Slowing Vermont's Population Growth, Treasurer Says

Departing residents cited housing difficulties as their No. 1 reason for leaving the state in 2021 and 2022, according to a new report from the...

www.sevendaysvt.com

Anecdotally I have a lot of newcomer patients in the past 2-3 years.

 

[sibhusky]

Does anyone think the Covid trend of moving to a rural area is shifting? Are people moving back to the city now?

I don't think so. For one thing, there weren't sufficient houses for them to move into, so they got on two year waiting lists for the builder, but supply chains are still a mess and that builder is a year behind. Also, the last two winters weren't very snowy. They can't sell their partially built house and they haven't been miserable enough yet to do it anyway.

Just kidding, but I do think it'll be another year or two.

We've still got severe housing shortages and there's plenty about it in the news with the recent elections and new proposals and fights about new developments and a growing number of homeless. We've got Kalispell bitching about Whitefish supposedly dropping off the homeless in Kalispell, but WF claiming they are being taken to service agencies. (Kalispell doesn't seem to get that they are the county seat, and that's where county services are.) Anyway, major issues with schools not physically big enough and are almost brand new, built to handle capacity for 20 years but already out of space, lack of facilities for a growing number of kids with no housing or fixed abode, etc. Finger pointing between state and towns. At this point, I feel like I'll start straying into politics, so I'll shut up.

Best case would be that all the work from home people decide to do it someplace sunnier and sell their houses cheaper so that people can buy and free up houses for long term rentals, etc. There was a large hotel that had gone downhill and was renting out long term rooms that was bought out and all those people ended up on the streets. That was before COVID. Then with the influx of tourists during COVID we got way more houses becoming Airbnb's, so more renters forced out. I think that may be abating a bit. But at this point they are just sitting empty more, not going back to being long term rentals.

 

[NWSkiGirl]

Depends on the region. The high prices in some cities is discouraging some people from moving in. At the same time, it's encouraging developers and builders to start new residential or mixed-use projects.

I keep reading there's a shortage of homes because building didn't keep up with population growth. So I'm glad that's happening now! And I was surprised that staying in the city during Covid didn't have any perks - rents didn't go down and overall cost of living went up.

 

[NWSkiGirl]

I know everyone talked as if that were happening during Covid, but it doesn't seem that the stats ultimately backed that up. People who left generally only did so temporarily. I've seen other reporting/studies like the one below, and this corresponds with my experience in Seattle. I know people that kind of moved to their vacation homes for a while, or who bought a second home, but not anyone that actually moved.

The Pandemic Didn’t Upend US Geography

Three years after Covid began, big cities are still standing. But work and housing shifts are translating to some enduring changes.

www.bloomberg.com

I know someone who sold their home and moved to Hawaii to wait out Covid. They always meant to move back. My boss moved to Walla Walla for a few years but he moved back because he said his wife missed the city. Otherwise most people I know seemed to stay put...

 

[NWSkiGirl]

I don't think so. For one thing, there weren't sufficient houses for them to move into, so they got on two year waiting lists for the builder, but supply chains are still a mess and that builder is a year behind. Also, the last two winters weren't very snowy. They can't sell their partially built house and they haven't been miserable enough yet to do it anyway.

Just kidding, but I do think it'll be another year or two.

We've still got severe housing shortages and there's plenty about it in the news with the recent elections and new proposals and fights about new developments and a growing number of homeless. We've got Kalispell bitching about Whitefish supposedly dropping off the homeless in Kalispell, but WF claiming they are being taken to service agencies. (Kalispell doesn't seem to get that they are the county seat, and that's where county services are.) Anyway, major issues with schools not physically big enough and are almost brand new, built to handle capacity for 20 years but already out of space, lack of facilities for a growing number of kids with no housing or fixed abode, etc. Finger pointing between state and towns. At this point, I feel like I'll start straying into politics, so I'll shut up.

Best case would be that all the work from home people decide to do it someplace sunnier and sell their houses cheaper so that people can buy and free up houses for long term rentals, etc. There was a large hotel that had gone downhill and was renting out long term rooms that was bought out and all those people ended up on the streets. That was before COVID. Then with the influx of tourists during COVID we got way more houses becoming Airbnb's, so more renters forced out. I think that may be abating a bit. But at this point they are just sitting empty more, not going back to being long term rentals.

I hope someday I'll go against the trends! I feel like I want to do what everyone else wants to do and there is no winning.

 

[marzNC]

I keep reading there's a shortage of homes because building didn't keep up with population growth. So I'm glad that's happening now! And I was surprised that staying in the city during Covid didn't have any perks - rents didn't go down and overall cost of living went up.

That makes sense for the potential towns/cities you are considering in order to be near skiing.

Keep in mind that different regions dealt with the pandemic in very different ways. What happened in the PacNW, California, and the northeast (Boston, New York City, Philadelphia, etc.) was completely different from the southeast (Atlanta, Raleigh/Durham, Miami, etc.) or states like Montana or Idaho.

The population shifts because people liked living near big mountains such as those near Denver or Salt Lake City started a few years after recovery from the 2008 recession. Working from home was possible for some professions earlier than others. The pandemic accelerated the pace of WFH for a while, which undoubtedly has had an impact on residential real estate.

 

[BlizzardBabe]

I’ll have to look at these on a map. I thought sugarloaf was back east!

Actually it is "Downeast." Easy mistake to make. There are likely even more "loafs" out there!

Sugarloaf

At 4,237 feet, Sugarloaf is the second tallest mountain in Maine, featuring the only lift-serviced, above-treeline skiing and snowboarding in the East.

www.sugarloaf.com

 

[sibhusky]

I just looked at Census data. Between 2020 and 2022, the population of Whitefish increased 15%. In two years. Between 2010 and 2020 (ten years) it increased 21%. Hence the stress.

 

[Christy]

The population shifts because people liked living near big mountains such as those near Denver or Salt Lake City started a few years after recovery from the 2008 recession. Working from home was possible for some professions earlier than others. The pandemic accelerated the pace of WFH for a while, which undoubtedly has had an impact on residential real estate.

This is essentially the gist of what I've been reading. There was not a massive move out of cities to rural areas and small towns during Covid. Those trends were already in place, as @sibhusky shows in those Montana stats.

Seattle grew 21.1% 2010-2020 which is more than any other city for that time period then another 2.4% in 2021 which is the most of any U.S. city for that year too (so no big move out here!). Given that the city is geographically small and constrained that's going to impact the suburbs too (plus many would just rather live on the Eastside), so yeah, no dips in rent. People came, not left.

 

[NWSkiGirl]

That makes sense for the potential towns/cities you are considering in order to be near skiing.

Keep in mind that different regions dealt with the pandemic in very different ways. What happened in the PacNW, California, and the northeast (Boston, New York City, Philadelphia, etc.) was completely different from the southeast (Atlanta, Raleigh/Durham, Miami, etc.) or states like Montana or Idaho.

The population shifts because people liked living near big mountains such as those near Denver or Salt Lake City started a few years after recovery from the 2008 recession. Working from home was possible for some professions earlier than others. The pandemic accelerated the pace of WFH for a while, which undoubtedly has had an impact on residential real estate.

Yes!! Work from home has really changed things. I wouldn't be able to move at all if not for that. And my company didn't offer that pre Covid.

 

[NWSkiGirl]

That makes sense for the potential towns/cities you are considering in order to be near skiing.

Yes, for instance I'm thinking of what happened to Tahoe during the pandemic with people moving from San Francisco. SF was already getting too expensive and crowded so maybe it would have happened anyway, but Covid did really accelerate that with the tech companies offering WFH. My company said they'll never force us back into the office. I'll be WFH "forever."

 

[NWSkiGirl]

There are likely even more "loafs" out there!

lol

 

[NWSkiGirl]

I just looked at Census data. Between 2020 and 2022, the population of Whitefish increased 15%. In two years. Between 2010 and 2020 (ten years) it increased 21%. Hence the stress.

Wow!

For some reason I feel like you talked me out of Whitefish. I can't recall why! I'll have to look back at the thread.

 

[NWSkiGirl]

This is essentially the gist of what I've been reading. There was not a massive move out of cities to rural areas and small towns during Covid. Those trends were already in place, as @sibhusky shows in those Montana stats.

Seattle grew 21.1% 2010-2020 which is more than any other city for that time period then another 2.4% in 2021 which is the most of any U.S. city for that year too (so no big move out here!). Given that the city is geographically small and constrained that's going to impact the suburbs too (plus many would just rather live on the Eastside), so yeah, no dips in rent. People came, not left.

Yes, Seattle has always held strong on housing and employment and lots of people are still moving here. I can see why.

My rent is going up by $200 next year. That's another things about Seattle if you rent: They give you a month of free rent to get you in, but then raise the rent each year. In So Cal they lower your rent as incentive to sign another lease. I feel like I'm going to have to move down the stree just to avoid the rent increase.