teleskichica
Certified Ski Diva
Divergent comment from me here but I also have a similar reaction. I refer to non-profit investment for the owner class as socially approved money laundering.
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Vail: How it's changed skiing and where it might be going.
- Thread starter ski diva
- Start date
contesstant
Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Interestingly Snowbasin, which is on the Epic pass is also doing a piss-poor job of grooming and prepping their lots and even lift corrals this year. I watched a lot of clearly out-of-towners really struggling to get down the mountain today on runs that I think they expected to be groomed. It snowed 16" last night but normally they groom a lot more than they have been. The lift cues are a mess and are not smooth.
contesstant
Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I saw that too and was pretty aghast.
teleskichica
Certified Ski Diva
I am thoroughly distracted from work and keep thinking about this thread. I echo you @echo_NY
Traveling is not enviro friendly at all. Nor is it community friendly either. More often than not temporary residents bring gentrification and dependence on an economy that is sucking away resources most notably environmental resources and housing. Unless there is a very conscientious effort to mitigate impacts, this occurs even amongst the most well-meaning visitors. Simply having a tourist economy pushes out lower income residents of a community. Why would a restaurant charge $5 for a local's sandwich when you can cater to a tourist willing to spend $12? Why would you rent your home to a year-round resident when you can make with weekly rentals three months out of the year? Groceries even go up or product availability shifts to accommodate a tourist economy.
My husband grew up just outside of Sun Valley, Idaho. His family still lives in Hailey. He doesn't ski. Okay, he didn't ski. My daughter is an excellent teacher and took a couple afternoons to coach him through his fears last winter and he's rather excited about it. His only experience with skiing was as a poor teenager in an exclusive resort. Skiing doesn't just have a racial and (increasingly less) gender problem, it has a class issue too. He was thrilled that there were other blue-jean kids on the slopes during his lessons at White Pass last winter. (We still don't downhill ski in Sun Valley but buy plane tickets home for he holidays months and months in advance or plan on driving and I skate ski on the miles of community trails. Wheee!)
I see what Vail has done - made casual vacation skiers into "pass holders" invested in the resort empire. "You too can have exclusive access in these particular kind of ways." I have had a lot of prodding from friends: Get a multi-resort pass and travel with us! But after doing the blackout dates and travel math (room, car, flight, food) I just haven't been able to make the numbers come out for me so I've remained the sucker still invested in a pass at my local hill. Although, that's changing too since Crystal Mountain is impossible on a weekend or any powder day. Parking is now by reservation with a parking pass(?). Frankly, I was kind of overwhelmed with all the caveats of how the new system works. I saw they have started a free reservation only shuttle system from Enumclaw which is over an hour away. It's hard to squeeze in just "one more run" in the side country when you are scheduled to be on that bus. *Okay I wrote all that out and see that parking is a little more liberal non-holiday M-Th.
I won't even begin to speak about Stevens.
There is Snoqualmie but it is low elevation and is a very, very large swath of green runs perfect for beginners and families. I spent several seasons there when my kids were little. It's not a location with much terrain.
Anyhow, it seems that the net effect of these multi-resort passes will eventually return to exclusivity. And that would be rather disappointing. Other options?
marzNC
Angel Diva
Having read about Rob Katz and how he became CEO of Vail Resorts, this feels unfair. He didn't want the job. He and his wife made a life changing decision to move their family from NYC after 9/11. He spent a year away from full-time work as he worked out what to do next. He took over a failing corporation and found creative ways to move forward. For the era after he became CEO in 2006, it made a big difference in Colorado and Tahoe. Especially when the 2008 recession hit the ski industry hard. Whether or not the VR approach going forward from 2018 after all the acquisitions in other regions will worth out in the long run is still unknown.
Katz's wife, Elena Amsterdam, is a strong personality in her own right. The couple's personal donations presumably reflect both of their interests.
Homepage
Elana is a NYT best selling author, wellness expert, health advocate, and has been a powerful influencer in the wellness space for 30+ years.
elanaspantry.com
Vail Resorts Rob Katz and Wife Elena Amsterdam Make $2 Million Contribution to Community Non-Profits - Mountain Town Magazine
We are very familiar with the local non-profits that assist our communities and help make them a better place. It is heartwarming when you hear of people contributing funds to these non profits and helping them make their missions possible. Today we heard that Vail Resorts Company CEO Rob Katz...
mtntownmagazine.com
Iwannaski
Angel Diva
@marzNC … I hear you. He and his wife may not be malicious. No one ever thinks they are malicious, though, do they? Shunting money to non profits under one‘s own control is a tax shelter. That is a fact - they are well within their rights to use tax shelters as they will, but I just don’t view “donated $XM to family foundation“ as the altruistic gesture some might. I’ve seen enough exploitation of the tax code to be cynical about it.
No argument that what Rob Katz has done at Vail is extraordinary. Absolutely insane, the returns he has achieved. I’m commenting on the article and its take.
Moreover, to me, there’s a difference between the CEO and the corporation. So, while I commend the CORPORATE initiatives that are doing good (gender, racial diversity, etc) it doesn’t actually promote the message the corporation is sending if they are also alienating their pass holders and communities.
Corporations that are working for change have to fight harder when they are successful… not use a message as a marketing point and then cut/cut/cut for a bigger bottom line. How are they helping small businesses in their local communities? Wouldn’t locally run concession contracts - with 50% focused on women run businesses - be an effective way to use the method as the message? Is that what they are doing? Doesn’t sound like it. Sounds like they are fast fooding concessions to achieve economies of scale and a pretty standard product. Now…I’ll say this…there are certain customers for whom that is the ideal. And if that’s their target segment, then that’s great for those people.
But… it stands that the NON target segments, if they’re losing from this strategy, will be frustrated, and they should expect that they will LOSE those skiers/snowboarders who are not in the target. And that may be fine with VR, and will fit with their strategy.
No argument that what Rob Katz has done at Vail is extraordinary. Absolutely insane, the returns he has achieved. I’m commenting on the article and its take.
Moreover, to me, there’s a difference between the CEO and the corporation. So, while I commend the CORPORATE initiatives that are doing good (gender, racial diversity, etc) it doesn’t actually promote the message the corporation is sending if they are also alienating their pass holders and communities.
Corporations that are working for change have to fight harder when they are successful… not use a message as a marketing point and then cut/cut/cut for a bigger bottom line. How are they helping small businesses in their local communities? Wouldn’t locally run concession contracts - with 50% focused on women run businesses - be an effective way to use the method as the message? Is that what they are doing? Doesn’t sound like it. Sounds like they are fast fooding concessions to achieve economies of scale and a pretty standard product. Now…I’ll say this…there are certain customers for whom that is the ideal. And if that’s their target segment, then that’s great for those people.
But… it stands that the NON target segments, if they’re losing from this strategy, will be frustrated, and they should expect that they will LOSE those skiers/snowboarders who are not in the target. And that may be fine with VR, and will fit with their strategy.
Related, and really making me re-think my pass situation for next season (popup looks like a paywall, but isn't - just close the popup window):
new Vail-related article
new Vail-related article
Christy
Angel Diva
Wow.
When Vail Resorts acquires a new resort, they assimilate departments into the company’s headquarters in Broomfield. The career-types in each ski area’s finance, marketing and human resources departments are let go. They direct all hourly workers — there are tens of thousands of seasonal, hourly workers supporting Vail Resorts — to an app for all daily tasks, like tracking benefits, pay and COVID policies.
“They made a bet on automating everything and eliminated institutional knowledge and careers and, really, the culture at all these resorts in the name of efficiency. And it might have worked,” Kaufman said. “Then a pandemic came and they have a broken HR app that does not work as they try to navigate through a, quote, global talent shortage. The pandemic called their bet and now they don’t have veterans or institutional knowledge.”
marzNC
Angel Diva
Those sort of changes were pretty obvious when Stowe was bought back in 2017. Presumably there were office staff that were no longer needed when the first family-owned "urban" resorts were bought several years before. In general, the family members who were owner-operators seem to disappear when VR does an acquisition. Although that's not uncommon in the ski industry in general.
There were podcasts related to the acquisitions in 2018 and 2019. VR had barely figured out how to deal with many new locations outside Colorado, Utah, and Tahoe all at the same time when the pandemic hit.
VR bought SP well before the pandemic in 2018. They went thru and eliminated or fired all the long timers in HR, accounting/financing, marketing, etc centralizing departments and tasks. Which I understand from a fiscal POV, but not from a human/culture POV. And even from a fiscal POV, VR mismanaged departments showing healthy profits/growth and eliminated or micromanaged these to the point of loss. Then it’s a no brainer to shut these down as profits shrink or disappear.
VR couldn’t figure stuff out because they eliminated all the folks that knew how to run the area and could be helpful in maintaining/optimizing successful mtn operations, NOT because of the pandemic. The pandemic just “called their bet”.
I keep thinking of the old Star Trek Next Generation episodes w/the Borg: You will be assimilated; Resistance is Futile. Pretty much the VR way; just my opinion.
The comments in the article posted are also interesting to read, esp the guy who worked at Mt Sunapee and whose Dad still works there.
I’m way too over invested in this to be neutral and/or reasonable and I am just heartbroken for my home mountain.
VR couldn’t figure stuff out because they eliminated all the folks that knew how to run the area and could be helpful in maintaining/optimizing successful mtn operations, NOT because of the pandemic. The pandemic just “called their bet”.
I keep thinking of the old Star Trek Next Generation episodes w/the Borg: You will be assimilated; Resistance is Futile. Pretty much the VR way; just my opinion.
The comments in the article posted are also interesting to read, esp the guy who worked at Mt Sunapee and whose Dad still works there.
I’m way too over invested in this to be neutral and/or reasonable and I am just heartbroken for my home mountain.
newboots
Angel Diva
What could go wrong?
newboots
Angel Diva
As mentioned a bit somewhere in this thread and its attachments, it's not just Stevens Pass and other Western resorts. Wildcat and Attitash in NH are falling apart this season, too. Additional factors include the severe lack of snow, but Wildcat, at least, is barely open, with a quarter of their trails open and 16% of terrain open. (Thanks to someone - @liquidfeet ? - who posted about this on another thread.)
Stuart Winchester, of the Storm Skiing Journal, has an emphasis on running ski resorts. Most of his podcasts are interviews with owners and CEOs of ski hills. Winchester does have a fondness for mom-and-pop hills, with great affection for several of them, specifically. But his overall perspective seems to be about management, not skier experience.
Stuart Winchester, of the Storm Skiing Journal, has an emphasis on running ski resorts. Most of his podcasts are interviews with owners and CEOs of ski hills. Winchester does have a fondness for mom-and-pop hills, with great affection for several of them, specifically. But his overall perspective seems to be about management, not skier experience.
Christy
Angel Diva
Here are some interesting bits from an Everett Herald article today.
www.heraldnet.com
And since Christmas Day, at least a dozen people have filed consumer complaints against the resort with the state Office of the Attorney General.
**
The company shut down low-cost employee housing nearby, where employees could rent a bed for a few hundred dollars a month just a five-minute drive from the summit.
Vail Resorts also discontinued a program that offered local property owners a free season pass if they rented out rooms to ski area workers at affordable rates, instead of marketing them to visitors as short-term rentals, according to employees.
**
Few lifties returned following last season, employees say. So managers have called on staff from other departments to run the lifts, including food and beverage staff, maintenance workers, ski school instructors and ski patrollers, who are responsible for handling medical emergencies on the slopes and conducting avalanche control.
“It’s actually seriously a safety issue,” said another employee, who has worked there more than three seasons. “If folks aren’t trained to be a lift operator, and they don’t know how to properly load a guest or when to push the stop button, somebody can get seriously injured or even die. Bottom line, that’s how it affects the customer experience.”
**
The perks that kept people coming back dwindled.
New leadership axed regular events that catered to local customers and live music on the weekends.
Employees lost their regular “ride breaks” during their shifts.
“When you’re doing this job for minimum wage and you don’t get to participate in your passion, it drains people and makes unhappy employees,” said the employee of more than three seasons. “It’s kind of hard to be a ski bum when you’re required to work 80 hours a week.”
At Stevens Pass, epic lines, not-so-epic times amid staff shortage | HeraldNet.com
Skiers, snowboarders and employees blame owner Vail Resorts for a “dysfunctional” season. Management cites industry-wide issues.
www.heraldnet.com
And since Christmas Day, at least a dozen people have filed consumer complaints against the resort with the state Office of the Attorney General.
**
The company shut down low-cost employee housing nearby, where employees could rent a bed for a few hundred dollars a month just a five-minute drive from the summit.
Vail Resorts also discontinued a program that offered local property owners a free season pass if they rented out rooms to ski area workers at affordable rates, instead of marketing them to visitors as short-term rentals, according to employees.
**
Few lifties returned following last season, employees say. So managers have called on staff from other departments to run the lifts, including food and beverage staff, maintenance workers, ski school instructors and ski patrollers, who are responsible for handling medical emergencies on the slopes and conducting avalanche control.
“It’s actually seriously a safety issue,” said another employee, who has worked there more than three seasons. “If folks aren’t trained to be a lift operator, and they don’t know how to properly load a guest or when to push the stop button, somebody can get seriously injured or even die. Bottom line, that’s how it affects the customer experience.”
**
The perks that kept people coming back dwindled.
New leadership axed regular events that catered to local customers and live music on the weekends.
Employees lost their regular “ride breaks” during their shifts.
“When you’re doing this job for minimum wage and you don’t get to participate in your passion, it drains people and makes unhappy employees,” said the employee of more than three seasons. “It’s kind of hard to be a ski bum when you’re required to work 80 hours a week.”
I'm not surprised to hear this at all, @Christy. You may have heard the disaster that Wildcat and Attitash are here in the East. There are actually problems at all the Eastern resorts, and it's positively disheartening to see what's going on.
So here's my take:
I think Vail fails to understand that running an Eastern resort is not the same as running one out west. The resorts are smaller, they're not necessarily vacation destinations, and the culture here is completely different. What's more, many of these resorts have been around for decades. They have loyal customers who've been coming to them for generations, and while changes are inevitable when there's an acquisition, the first rule should be not to alienate your most loyal supporters.
Instead, what I'm seeing is a corporation thousands of miles away that's running a lot of operations remotely, They're putting cookie cutter solutions on areas that are no way identical, without any regard for the differences that give each of them their distinctive character. Whatever is implemented at one resort is put in place at another. This goes for everything from websites to lift line configurations to food service to employee management. The results are not good.
I know the days of Mom and Pop ski areas are pretty much over. Ski resorts are incredibly expensive to operate and there are a lot of moving parts. And perhaps many of us are viewing the past through rose colored glasses. I also know we're in an especially challenging period, with COVID and employee shortages and housing issues. I'm also not immune to appreciating the infrastructure improvements Vail's put in place. I like the new lifts and the cheap season passes, and I look forward to many other improvements , too. But it seems like all the attention is being paid to Vail stockholders, and not enough in creating a positive experience for both skiers and employees. Instead, these are being ignored or sacrificed for the sake of (perceived) efficiency and profit.
I worked at Okemo part time before and after Vail came in. When Vail first started, they made great pains to emphasize the importance of creating the "experience of a lifetime" for all their guests. All employees -- full and part time -- had to attend training sessions on putting the customer first. Going out of your way to provide a positive experience -- no matter what it took -- was strongly encouraged for everyone.
Sadly, I don't think this is what's happened. Instead, Vail has done lots of little things that may seem minor, but when added together, create an environment that is anything but positive. Here are a few, off the top of my head, that have happened at my home mountain:
• When Vail first took over, they did away with the local youth program that provided skiing for disadvantaged youngsters. Really, one of your first acts is shutting out poor kids? You can imagine how that went over.
• They fired a lot of long standing employees. Sure, there was "duplication of effort" with operations in Colorado. Still, not something that generated a lot of love in the community.
• They eliminated many local shuttle stops for resort buses (these are run during weekends and peak periods), which makes getting to the mountain difficult for both employees and guests, and adds to local traffic.
• They eliminated discount tickets for ski clubs, youth groups, etc. Bus trips are no longer welcome.
• The Mountain Ambassador program was shut down. This was a group of volunteers who'd go on the mountain to answer questions, greet visitors, direct people, help with parking, offer tours, etc. All they asked for in exchange for doing this was a free pass. It was over.
• The cheap lift passes have created incredible crowds, even during times that didn't used to be too busy. I know there are a lot of factors at play here -- people working remotely, for example -- but damn, it's busy. All. The. Time.
• They created crazy lift line entrances. This may seem like a small thing, but lines have always fed from both sides of the lifts, which worked really well. Now they only feed from one, creating both safety and traffic issues.
I don't know what the answer is. Vail has so much power and people have become positively addicted to the low price passes. Unlike the American Ski Company, which acquired a bunch of areas and also offered cheap passes, Vail has a lot of money and I don't think they're going anywhere soon. All I can say is that yes, there are real problems and I hope to God they do something to fix them. I love skiing at my local mountain, and I hate that things have become such a mess.
So here's my take:
I think Vail fails to understand that running an Eastern resort is not the same as running one out west. The resorts are smaller, they're not necessarily vacation destinations, and the culture here is completely different. What's more, many of these resorts have been around for decades. They have loyal customers who've been coming to them for generations, and while changes are inevitable when there's an acquisition, the first rule should be not to alienate your most loyal supporters.
Instead, what I'm seeing is a corporation thousands of miles away that's running a lot of operations remotely, They're putting cookie cutter solutions on areas that are no way identical, without any regard for the differences that give each of them their distinctive character. Whatever is implemented at one resort is put in place at another. This goes for everything from websites to lift line configurations to food service to employee management. The results are not good.
I know the days of Mom and Pop ski areas are pretty much over. Ski resorts are incredibly expensive to operate and there are a lot of moving parts. And perhaps many of us are viewing the past through rose colored glasses. I also know we're in an especially challenging period, with COVID and employee shortages and housing issues. I'm also not immune to appreciating the infrastructure improvements Vail's put in place. I like the new lifts and the cheap season passes, and I look forward to many other improvements , too. But it seems like all the attention is being paid to Vail stockholders, and not enough in creating a positive experience for both skiers and employees. Instead, these are being ignored or sacrificed for the sake of (perceived) efficiency and profit.
I worked at Okemo part time before and after Vail came in. When Vail first started, they made great pains to emphasize the importance of creating the "experience of a lifetime" for all their guests. All employees -- full and part time -- had to attend training sessions on putting the customer first. Going out of your way to provide a positive experience -- no matter what it took -- was strongly encouraged for everyone.
Sadly, I don't think this is what's happened. Instead, Vail has done lots of little things that may seem minor, but when added together, create an environment that is anything but positive. Here are a few, off the top of my head, that have happened at my home mountain:
• When Vail first took over, they did away with the local youth program that provided skiing for disadvantaged youngsters. Really, one of your first acts is shutting out poor kids? You can imagine how that went over.
• They fired a lot of long standing employees. Sure, there was "duplication of effort" with operations in Colorado. Still, not something that generated a lot of love in the community.
• They eliminated many local shuttle stops for resort buses (these are run during weekends and peak periods), which makes getting to the mountain difficult for both employees and guests, and adds to local traffic.
• They eliminated discount tickets for ski clubs, youth groups, etc. Bus trips are no longer welcome.
• The Mountain Ambassador program was shut down. This was a group of volunteers who'd go on the mountain to answer questions, greet visitors, direct people, help with parking, offer tours, etc. All they asked for in exchange for doing this was a free pass. It was over.
• The cheap lift passes have created incredible crowds, even during times that didn't used to be too busy. I know there are a lot of factors at play here -- people working remotely, for example -- but damn, it's busy. All. The. Time.
• They created crazy lift line entrances. This may seem like a small thing, but lines have always fed from both sides of the lifts, which worked really well. Now they only feed from one, creating both safety and traffic issues.
I don't know what the answer is. Vail has so much power and people have become positively addicted to the low price passes. Unlike the American Ski Company, which acquired a bunch of areas and also offered cheap passes, Vail has a lot of money and I don't think they're going anywhere soon. All I can say is that yes, there are real problems and I hope to God they do something to fix them. I love skiing at my local mountain, and I hate that things have become such a mess.
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Abbi
Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I am with you. And so sad about the way things are going so far at our shared local mountain. And as a Rhode Islander in Vermont for winters, who doesn’t drive more than 3 miles anywhere (a local joke for small staters), I have started going elsewhere at least a couple of days a week to ski with less crowds and fear for my life. I resent the changes and how they have affected many people locally. I have been in town long enough to know people who have been at the mountain for years. It’s all just so sad.
MissySki
Angel Diva
And Crotched in NH as well.. now going to shorter nights and 5 days open instead of 7. It’s a major yikes growing for New England Epic resorts. I heard poor info on Stowe as well from some folls I skied with this week, but don’t have first hand info there. I was more surprised on that given it being a more “premium” resort.
Abbi
Ski Diva Extraordinaire
There seems to be a lack of understanding between eastern area culture and western ski area culture. Or maybe the lack of perception of the potential crowding with so many people so close by respectively.
marzNC
Angel Diva
Agree that changing the person at the top is not good in the long run. However, that is clearly a deliberate management approach for VR.
Here are the notes I have for Sunapee and Okemo.
Mt. Sunapee
2018 Bruce Schmidt, from Okemo
2019 Tracy Bartels starts as GM, was Mt Ops at Keystone, Breck instructor 2000
2020 Peter Disch as GM 01Jun
Okemo
2018 Doug Pierini GM, also COO VR Northeast, from Kirkwood
2019 Bruce Schmidt starts as VP/GM, was at Sunapee, long time Okemo GM
