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Progressing from smearing to carving turns?

Skisailor

Angel Diva
Lots of good drills in the NZ video although I’m not totally on board with the way many of them are done. To ski bumps and powder we need a bomb proof short radius turn. That means get OFF your edges and turn your legs//skis!

So pivot slips is a really really great drill for this. Just see if you can do them with your head, shoulders AND hips, (yes even hips!) facing straight down the hill - unlike the guy in the video.
 

MissySki

Angel Diva
Lots of good drills in the NZ video although I’m not totally on board with the way many of them are done. To ski bumps and powder we need a bomb proof short radius turn. That means get OFF your edges and turn your legs//skis!

So pivot slips is a really really great drill for this. Just see if you can do them with your head, shoulders AND hips, (yes even hips!) facing straight down the hill - unlike the guy in the video.

Is this when turning on top of a bump only that you'd be off of your edges always? I certainly am off of my edges at that point, but I know I engage edges sometimes at other points like when getting from one bump to the next if it's steep and I'm trying to scrub some speed especially when the bumps are hard or icy (sometimes I def hear the ice scraping, so my edges have to be the culprit). Not sure if that makes sense in written form to describe what I mean.. something I'd surely like to explore more in a lesson this season though when I could demonstrate what I'm doing so it could be broken down.
 

marzNC

Angel Diva
So pivot slips is a really really great drill for this. Just see if you can do them with your head, shoulders AND hips, (yes even hips!) facing straight down the hill - unlike the guy in the video.
Yeah, I wondered about that.

What @snoWYmonkey challenged Bill to do was to keep his boots head straight down a line she drew with her pole that went directly down the fall line. That was during Bill's very first lesson as an adult. My other ski buddy, Jason, was part of the lesson too. Jason had never done a pivot slip. I had done them but wasn't that good yet. Bill's first go had lots of pivoting but also lots of horizontal travel, with a 360 thrown in at the end.
 

marzNC

Angel Diva
Cool video. Lots for me to work on--I cannot get on one ski to save the life of me. Very frustrating--plan to take lessons this year, so will ask what I am doing wrong. Pivot slips are super fun on tele skis.
OMG, pivot slips on tele skis. I'll stick with just trying to link a few tele turns on a green for a while. Only because my daughter's tele boots fit me and she's too busy with school for skiing. :smile:

How much have you done 1-leg dry land balance exercises? They are simple. I do 1-leg stuff all the time while waiting around. Essentially a variation of stuff in this video without as much movement or high knees. The key is that he starts with static balance and moves into dynamic balance. What I learned during knee rehab was that spending 2-3 min on static balance 4-5 times a day was what it took to make a difference relatively quickly.

 

marzNC

Angel Diva
My husband is heavily biased towards carving and I think that affects his ability to enjoy soft, bumpy fun days (where you would find me having tons of fun jumping around on soft moguls on the board while he struggles to keep up).
Carving isn't that important for deep powder either. I started out learning bumps because I wanted to play more in trees with powder 2-3 days after a storm. But once I got the hang of bumps, I've come to have great fun on pretty much any ungroomed terrain. Makes exploring new terrain a much more relaxed process. Took several seasons of concentrated effort and practice though. Mileage makes a difference no matter how many lessons can be fit in a season.
 

Skisailor

Angel Diva
Is this when turning on top of a bump only that you'd be off of your edges always? I certainly am off of my edges at that point, but I know I engage edges sometimes at other points like when getting from one bump to the next if it's steep and I'm trying to scrub some speed especially when the bumps are hard or icy (sometimes I def hear the ice scraping, so my edges have to be the culprit). Not sure if that makes sense in written form to describe what I mean.. something I'd surely like to explore more in a lesson this season though when I could demonstrate what I'm doing so it could be broken down.

Yes. That’s fine. Don’t take “off your edges” too literally. It’s a shorthand phrase. As soon as we are on a pitch we are somewhat on edge. And the downhill side of some moguls can be a double black diamond!!

The idea is to be able to control the edge angle so that you can get the skis around as quickly as you want to for the intended turn. Flatter for a really fast pivot. Edgier if you don’t mind taking longer for them to get around with the extra speed you will pick up.
 

MissySki

Angel Diva
Yes. That’s fine. Don’t take “off your edges” too literally. It’s a shorthand phrase. As soon as we are on a pitch we are somewhat on edge. And the downhill side of some moguls can be a double black diamond!!

The idea is to be able to control the edge angle so that you can get the skis around as quickly as you want to for the intended turn. Flatter for a really fast pivot. Edgier if you don’t mind taking longer for them to get around with the extra speed you will pick up.

Thanks, this makes sense! It's hard to think of each movement in the moment off snow and say okay, when and how on/off my edges am I in the bumps?!? I have problems there though, so anything to think about and play with is good. Something I will pay more attention to next time I'm out. I know I get off of my edges on top of the bump to turn quickly, but now I'm curious how much edge and what am I doing leading up to and after that point! Sometimes it's so effortless and sometimes not, so surely some inconsistencies.
 

marzNC

Angel Diva
Mileage makes a difference no matter how many lessons can be fit in a season.
For people who live in the flatlands, note that "mileage" does not necessarily mean trips to big mountains (>500 acres) in the Rockies or wherever. My L3 instructor at Massanutten has a small business. His skiing has been primarily in VA/WV. But he was diligent about practice even on short mostly groomed trails (2-5 minutes). Took a while but he was able to pass the L3 exam mostly prepping at Massanutten. The last prep season was after he learned at a PSIA clinic at Hunter that he had a fundamental flaw to work on. Being both flexible and stubborn can help.
 

Skisailor

Angel Diva
Thanks, this makes sense! It's hard to think of each movement in the moment off snow and say okay, when and how on/off my edges am I in the bumps?!? I have problems there though, so anything to think about and play with is good. Something I will pay more attention to next time I'm out. I know I get off of my edges on top of the bump to turn quickly, but now I'm curious how much edge and what am I doing leading up to and after that point! Sometimes it's so effortless and sometimes not, so surely some inconsistencies.

Well the top of a bump is a great place to start a turn! Much better than the troughs!!

And you’re right - you can’t plan every movementt in your head.

Next time you get in the bumps try this focus: it will be an exercise - not a normal bump run.

Aim at and ride up a bump that you want to start a turn on. When you get to the top, stop and take stock. Which way are your skis pointing? Which way is your body facing? Where are your hands? Part of managing the edge angle is your body position.

Hopefully your head and shoulders and your jacket zipper and hands are all facing downhill while the skis are at some angle to the fall line.
This will help you to keep weight over the downhill ski (so it can be edged or unedged) and will allow you to turn the skis as quickly or slowly as you want.

If you are facing your ski tips at the top of the bump when you stop, recenter your hands and torso so they face downhill before sliding off the bump.

This is a one at time bump focus.

The focus for the second half if the turn is to “dive” off the bump. Remember - the back sides are extra steep, and we want to try to always ski with our bodies perpendicular to the ski. So if it’s pointing and therefore slanted downhill, you have to go forward enough to stay perpendicular !
 

ilovepugs

Angel Diva
For people who live in the flatlands, note that "mileage" does not necessarily mean trips to big mountains (>500 acres) in the Rockies or wherever. My L3 instructor at Massanutten has a small business. His skiing has been primarily in VA/WV. But he was diligent about practice even on short mostly groomed trails (2-5 minutes). Took a while but he was able to pass the L3 exam mostly prepping at Massanutten. The last prep season was after he learned at a PSIA clinic at Hunter that he had a fundamental flaw to work on. Being both flexible and stubborn can help.

Totally agreed on this point! I often express my excitement to get out on smaller hills in the area, to my friends’ scoffing disbelief. Stubbornness and consistency - even in the face of less than “dream” conditions - are the key to any skill mastery!
 

liquidfeet

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
....progressing from smearing turns to truly getting up on edge and learning to carve.
....I’m always wary of picking up too much speed
, so I end up doing a lot of short, sharp smearing turns
....should I be trying to drill with speed on the greens?
....I want to be able to carve to get more comfortable and control with speed....
....I only own very smeary twin tip skis.

@ilovepugs, you clearly know that carving will get you going fast. But what you might not know yet is that skis that are carving are gripping the snow very well. That absolute grip is like nothing you've felt before. Smeared turns offer nothing close. So carving offers a sense of security that can become quite addictive -- it makes speed feel GREAT! You are going to love this.

Speed control while carving comes from turning across the hill, and even uphill, at carving speed. In other words, to avoid gaining speed while carving, you'll need to learn to complete your turns, then to initiate the new turn while heading across the fall line.

You'll need to learn on very low pitch terrain. Learn to feel the carve first heading downhill. Then learn to fully complete your turns to an uphill stop. Then learn how to initiate the new turn while heading a little bit uphill. These things can take some time to figure out how to do. Most people don't ever learn to complete their carved turns because it's hard to start a new turn from an across the hill trajectory. And because they don't learn to complete their turns, they gain too much speed and give up the carve. Make turn completion a goal for your journey.

The shorter the radius of your carved turns, the narrower the "lane" you take up as you head downhill. Skiing a narrow lane means slower downhill travel speed. That's good!

So the skis you choose to carve with might need to be short radius skis if you want to keep your speed down. They will also need torsional rigidity, meaning the tips and tails shouldn't twist under the forces they feel from the snow. If they are torsionally soft and twist, the tips and tails won't hold the carve even though you are doing things right. You say upthread you are on smeary twin tips. You may need to rent short radius carving skis if you are learning to carve on hard snow. It's worth it! If you are out west and learning on soft stuff that fell from the sky, your twin tips might work, as long as they have some camber and are built to generate short radius turns.

Ankle-tipping while heading straight down the fall line on beginner terrain is the way to start learning. You'll have to purge the habitual ski pivoting you may already have embedded in your muscle memory, and this drill is a good one for doing that. You won't be completing your turns with this kind of turn, but the pitch won't allow you to get going too too fast. Just hockey stop when you gain too much speed.

If you have trouble purging the pivot, cowboy turns because of the very wide stance won't allow the pivot to happen. So that drill allows you to get a feeling for how carving skis feel.

Have fun with this. You're going to have so much fun!
 
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ilovepugs

Angel Diva
@liquidfeet - thanks for the super encouraging, super educational, super cool reply!! So much to think about and try to put in practice over the next few weeks. This forum is really the best!!
 

liquidfeet

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Major qualifier for that long post I made upthread:

Carving is inherently fast. Learning to make short carved turns that travel down a narrow-ish corridor, and learning to make quick changes to that line if obstacles appear, is what racers work on as kids growing up in a race program. These skills do not come easy to adults who are learning to carve. For that reason, carving can be dangerous to self and others on the hill who might get in the way. That's the real reason we don't see many adult skiers carving their way down the hill.

At the bottom of the mountain, on the way back to the lodge, when the pitch flattens out appreciably, carving uncompleted turns at speed in a very narrow line (fast but not wide) is fun. Roll those ankles and feel the bliss! Until you reach that SLOW sign.

So as SkiSailor said, 90% of turns on a mountain are not carved and unless you grew up in a race program, carving regularly on crowded slopes is not going to be safe. Be careful out there when learning to carve!
 

marzNC

Angel Diva
Major qualifier for that long post I made upthread:

Carving is inherently fast. Learning to make short carved turns that travel down a narrow-ish corridor, and learning to make quick changes to that line if obstacles appear, is what racers work on as kids growing up in a race program. These skills do not come easy to adults who are learning to carve. For that reason, carving can be dangerous to self and others on the hill who might get in the way. That's the real reason we don't see many adult skiers carving their way down the hill.

At the bottom of the mountain, on the way back to the lodge, when the pitch flattens out appreciably, carving uncompleted turns at speed in a very narrow line (fast but not wide) is fun. Roll those ankles and feel the bliss! Until you reach that SLOW sign.

So as SkiSailor said, 90% of turns on a mountain are not carved and unless you grew up in a race program, carving regularly on crowded slopes is not going to be safe. Be careful out there when learning to carve!
Well said!

@ilovepugs : since you are going to join me at Massanutten . . . when you get consecutive day tickets then the night session is free (for all days). The way things work at Mnut, on weekends the slopes are empty 9:00-11:00 and empty out by 3pm. Very few people ski the blues after 8pm. No adult race league like some of the small mountains in the northeast that have night sessions. So going out after dinner can be a fun time to practice a bit when staying on resort.

One of the advantages of skiing in VA and south-central PA is that it's not frigid (<25 degrees) very often. :smile:
 

ilovepugs

Angel Diva
Awesome!!! Very excited for the weekend at massanutten. Crazy to me that the slopes are empty on weekend mornings - seems like the best time to go. But also ideal for practicing drills, so hey, I’ll take it.

Last year I had a night pass at Bolton Valley. It was a tough sell getting my husband to go to the hill with me on those single-digit nights..
 

marzNC

Angel Diva
Awesome!!! Very excited for the weekend at massanutten. Crazy to me that the slopes are empty on weekend mornings - seems like the best time to go. But also ideal for practicing drills, so hey, I’ll take it.
At a southeast resort like Massanutten, here's what happens on a Sat morning. Some folks are driving from their home 1-3 hours away early in the morning to avoid staying overnight on Friday. So they don't arrive until 9:00am or even a little later. Those who don't have kids doing ski school show up at the ticket window at 9:00 because that's the "open" time listed. They wait in line for lift tickets and rentals. Then they wait in line for rental gear. Even if not doing a beginner lesson, it's after 10:00 before they are ready to head out to the slopes. Some people aren't ready until close to 11:00.

Some people only buy a 4-hour lift ticket instead of an 8-hour ticket. Get a grace period to allow for renting gear. But still running out of time by 3:00.

As a 4-season timeshare resort with lots of amenities, many people doing their annual winter weekend or week only get on the slopes once during the weekend. Spend the other day snow tubing or going to the waterpark or ice skating or whatever. That's not going to change. The changes in the last ten years is that at least $15 million has been invested in snowsports capital projects like better snowmaking infrastructure, better groomers, a new building for ski school, and renovation of the lodge. Some upgrades were overdue given that Mnut's first season was in 1972. But getting the water park planned and built was a higher priority around 2000.

Fair to say that most advanced skiers in the region think Mnut isn't worth their time. Ironically, Mnut has more vertical than any ski area in PA. About 820 ft vertical for the two black trails off Lift 6. 1100 ft total vertical. Local advanced skiers with season passes have a good time on weekend mornings off Lifts 5 and 6, even on holiday weekends.
 

marzNC

Angel Diva
Going to take lessons in January,
Since you are in Baltimore now . . . this is from the Instructor Roll Call thread that was recently re-activated.

Don't know what took me so long to join this board... I've been lurking around and occasionally posting at Epic for a long time. I'm a part time PSIA Level II alpine instructor with 24 years of teaching experience at Liberty Mountain, PA. I specialize in teaching adults especially those that have been away from the sport for awhile ( the "lapsed" skier). I also know personally the anxiety and challenges that come with returning to the sport after injury and I understand the anxiety that coming into the sport "older" and wiser brings. Hey it's smart to not want to get injured... something we rarely thought about when we were young. I teach never-evers to advanced skiers with a focus on technique, tactics, and having fun.
 

tinymoose

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Maybe because I don't have the luxuries of vacation time or money to afford to travel a lot for skiing, but I don't get the disdain a lot of skiers have for their smaller, local hills. Skiing, even your local hill, is always better than no skiing.
 

marzNC

Angel Diva
Maybe because I don't have the luxuries of vacation time or money to afford to travel a lot for skiing, but I don't get the disdain a lot of skiers have for their smaller, local hills. Skiing, even your local hill, is always better than no skiing.
Not sure it's really "a lot of skiers" but more that skiers who post a lot on social media and/or online forums. Those tend to be advanced/expert skiers . . . or think they are. :smile: Clearly they are not representative of most skiers, especially those who aren't looking for chutes or extreme terrain or don't travel farther than they can drive comfortably for day trips or perhaps a weekend of two.

For folks interested in lessons, places that are smaller can be far better and less costly. One of the better multi-week programs in the mid-Atlantic is at Liberty, which is relatively small compared to the other ski areas in central PA within driving distance of DC/Baltimore. Cataloochee in NC has only 25 acres, same for Appalachian. Both have excellent programs for beginners of all ages.
 

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