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Legalities of Ski Safety

SuZieCoyote

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I ran across an interesting web site run by a a couple who are attorneys specializing in ski safety law. There is a lot of good information on the site. I understand, accept and even relish the inherent risk in the sport...but I'm tired of putting up with yahoos who ride out of control as if they own the mountain and put the rest of us at even greater risk. It isn't a boarder/skier thing. It is mostly a young male thing (statistics, not stereotype).

https://www.skisafety.com/articles.php

It all left me pretty discouraged. The laws basically do very little to hold out-of-control skiers/boarders accountable. And the resorts have done a lot of lobbying leading to legislation that protects them from being held responsible. They put the skiers code on napkins and feel they've done their job.

I found an interesting demographic from the article: Liability Of A Skier For Collision With Another Skier ".... women continue to drop out of the sport, arguably in part due to safety concerns and an overblown male, risk-taking marketing message." It talks about how almost all the marketing is aimed at the young male who fancies himself a macho extreme rider. What this says to me is that the industry is driving beginning women out of the sport in favor of the 15-30 year old male. Perhaps an industry insider amongst us could set me straight if I don't have this right?

I feel the resorts do bear a lot of the blame for out-of-control riders. Yes, there is personal responsibility, but last week at Keystone I saw so much obvious bad behavior, yet not one instance of ski patrol stopping anyone. They need to rip up a few passes. There were only two runs open, for pete's sake, you'd think Keystone could put a few staff members out there to encourage a bit of restraint. I see them standing around the "slow" signs....but the real danger is out there on the runs.

Last year, I put my granddaughter, Catie, on skis and in ski school for the first time. She was 9 years old. On her third day in school, a young male boarder, riding fast, took a blind jump and rammed into her. She ended up at the emergency center in Breckenridge. Fortunately, she had good insurance and even more fortunately, her injuries were painful, but not permanent. But she went from enthusiastic skiing to fearful, eyes darting over the shoulder, nervous movement. She didn't even want a pass this year. The name/number the boarder left were likely false....at least the number was not in service.

This year at opening day at Keystone a boarder slammed into me from behind. There was no one else around; this meant the guy was so out of control he couldn't even adjust his line the 12" it would have taken to miss me (I was doing a slow traverse to get to a good stopping point to wait for a friend.) He didn't even stop to see if I was OK, but took off like a chickenshi*. He was wearing black on black, like scores of others and he was gone so fast I couldn't get a good description for the patrol. Chances are, though, he'd been ripping down like this run after run and no one bothered to intervene.
 

belle

Certified Ski Diva
This year I am going to ski mostly on weekdays when there is no crowd. Hopefully it will be safer.
 

Skisailor

Angel Diva
I enjoy challenging myself and occasionally put myself into situations that require conquering some butterflies.

But my biggest fear by far these days is a crowded slope.

I'll stand for long periods of time on a crowded day to find that right moment and right space to begin my run. And if I start feeling too hemmed in, I'll stop and wait again for a new space.

It makes for slower skiing, but I really can't stand having too many skiers/boarders too close to me during a run.
 

altagirl

Moderator
Staff member
I avoid crowded slopes like the plague too.

I've had two collissions in my life - one was my husband coming over a hill that I had gone around and he ran into me (basically a blind spot - he thought I had gone the other way) and and the other was a friend who came up behind me and got so close his ski stuck in between mine on a groomer and yanked both our skis off.

Heh, so apparently what I should really be scared of is my friends. But actually I'm really paranoid that some random person in front of me will unexpectedly change directions or go from making consistent turns to suddenly traversing across the slope right in front of me. Basically, despite the reality of what's happened to me in 25 years of skiing, my paranoia is that some slower skier will cut in front of me or turn right into me, I won't be able to avoid them and then they will sue me.

Anyway, unless it's empty, I stick to the edges so I can jump off the groomer to avoid people if necessary.
 

abc

Banned
Been ran into more than once. One of them were very scary. (ski got knocked off). So I now try my best to avoid crowded slopes. Not always successful.

so apparently what I should really be scared of is my friends.
That's pretty funny. :smile:

But there's quite a bit of truth in that. After making sure I don't ski on big holidays and WROD, the several "close calls" all happen during Epic Gathering, from people of our own group!!!
 

MaineSkiLady

Angel Diva
Very interesting website, lots of interesting, informative articles.

I was especially struck by this quote on that website under "Liability of A Skier in a Collision with Another Skier:"
***
"Competition among ski area operators is becoming more fierce as the industry consolidates. Competition is sharpest in the ski lift department. New, high speed, high capacity lifts are a readily visible improvement which may give one area a boost over its neighbor.

Lift capacity is measured in Vertical Transport Feet Per Hour (VTF/Hour). VTF/Hour is the vertical feet which the lift climbs multiplied by the lift's skiers per hour capacity. VTF/Hour has grown at an annual rate of 4 percent, while the skiable terrain for ski area's has grown by only 1 percent per year. {Goeldner, "Economic Analysis of North American Ski Areas, 1976-93 p. 2 (Business Research Div., Grad. School of Bus. Ad., Univ. Colo., 1994}. This means that although the total number of skiers and snowboarders remains steady, they spend less time on lifts and more time on the slopes as the VTF/Hour has increased. Because the acreage has not increased, skier density has increased. One study, conducted on a small scale, concluded that an increase in lift capacity, without a concomitant increase in terrain, increases the risk of a skier versus skier or snowboarder collision. {Lystad, "Collision Injuries in Alpine Skiing," Skiing Trauma and Safety, Seventh International Symposium (ASTM STP 1022)}"
***

High speed lifts apparently are doing no one any favors - something with which the regulars at the mountain I call "home" are in complete agreement . We totally get the benefit of the fixed grip lifts, at least in strategic locations. Makes a difference. I've been arguing this for years - guess it's a reality after all.

Not to minimize the necessity of greater skier/rider safety and patrol calling out recklessness, but this was something that hit home for me.

Also, for what it's worth, the pendulum swings both ways with regard to who hits/hurts whom: my son, who snowboards, was taken out and injured (knee>surgery) by a skier.
 

Swamp Dog

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
slammed into me from behind. There was no one else around; this meant the guy was so out of control he couldn't even adjust his line the 12" it would have taken to miss me <<SNIP>> He didn't even stop to see if I was OK, but took off like a chickenshi*. He was wearing black on black, like scores of others and he was gone so fast I couldn't get a good description for the patrol. Chances are, though, he'd been ripping down like this run after run and no one bothered to intervene.

that's EXACTLY what happened to me. Some chickenshi* POS male skier hit me from behind, not once, but twice, to make sure I went down, then disappeared.

I'm still paying off medical bills from the ensuing surgery and PT.

This kind of crap has to stop!
 

3dogsKris

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I am terrified of being hit because I am blind in my left eye. I ski on the left edge of the run, almost at the tree line, so that I avoid most other people. I try to avoid the "fast" runs that the "boys" love to board on. I have say that I went to one of the ski only areas in Utah when I first moved here and was horrified by the recklessness of the skiers, mostly male. They went so fast and seem to have no control. Speed is great in certain places, but not on a begging/intermediate run. Maybe areas should have speed runs, like the parks that are closed to other regular people. On the other hand, I have to say I am very afraid of hitting a slow "gapper" who suddenly stops or changes directions, but when I see someone like that in front of me I get MY speed under control, so that I can make a split second change if I need to. I haven't hit anyone yet, and have only been hit by stupid people in the groups I am skiing with. The mountains should do more to control speeders, especially on crowded days.
 

KatyPerrey

PSIA 3 Children's Specialist 2 Keystone Resort
But there's quite a bit of truth in that. After making sure I don't ski on big holidays and WROD, the several "close calls" all happen during Epic Gathering, from people of our own group!!!

:ROTF:
 

pinto

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Very interesting website, lots of interesting, informative articles.

I was especially struck by this quote on that website under "Liability of A Skier in a Collision with Another Skier:"
***
"Competition among ski area operators is becoming more fierce as the industry consolidates. Competition is sharpest in the ski lift department. New, high speed, high capacity lifts are a readily visible improvement which may give one area a boost over its neighbor.

Lift capacity is measured in Vertical Transport Feet Per Hour (VTF/Hour). VTF/Hour is the vertical feet which the lift climbs multiplied by the lift's skiers per hour capacity. VTF/Hour has grown at an annual rate of 4 percent, while the skiable terrain for ski area's has grown by only 1 percent per year. {Goeldner, "Economic Analysis of North American Ski Areas, 1976-93 p. 2 (Business Research Div., Grad. School of Bus. Ad., Univ. Colo., 1994}. This means that although the total number of skiers and snowboarders remains steady, they spend less time on lifts and more time on the slopes as the VTF/Hour has increased. Because the acreage has not increased, skier density has increased. One study, conducted on a small scale, concluded that an increase in lift capacity, without a concomitant increase in terrain, increases the risk of a skier versus skier or snowboarder collision. {Lystad, "Collision Injuries in Alpine Skiing," Skiing Trauma and Safety, Seventh International Symposium (ASTM STP 1022)}"
***

High speed lifts apparently are doing no one any favors - something with which the regulars at the mountain I call "home" are in complete agreement . We totally get the benefit of the fixed grip lifts, at least in strategic locations. Makes a difference. I've been arguing this for years - guess it's a reality after all.

Not to minimize the necessity of greater skier/rider safety and patrol calling out recklessness, but this was something that hit home for me.

Also, for what it's worth, the pendulum swings both ways with regard to who hits/hurts whom: my son, who snowboards, was taken out and injured (knee>surgery) by a skier.

Yes, I'm to the point that I seek out the old slow lifts. Keeps the snow better, too. The kids complain, or at least used to (this lift takes forevvvvverrrrr!), but after hearing the explanation(s), I think they're on board.
 

geargrrl

Angel Diva
There have some situations where various charges have been files against the "perps'. I'd have to google it, but there was a case in Vail a few years ago where a guy skied into a little girl and he ended up in jail for it. In some cases, people have sued to get compensated for their injuries and so on.
 

marge

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
That is very interesting.

My gf was one of the first involved in a trial of a skier who hit her while "reckless" skiing. He (a physician) was actually charged by the state of Colorado for reckless skiing after he slammed into her at a HIGH rate of speed in the middle of a run. She was knocked out for at least 15 minutes and still has blurred vision and headaches. :sad

I think ski areas need to crack down on the reckless behavior and just throw them out of the ski area. It only needs to happen a few times before people get the picture.
 

SuZieCoyote

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Vail Incident

The one Vail incident I know about was a a few years ago when a lift operator (Nathan Hall) got off duty on the last day of the season and flew down a mogul field. He was going so fast that he went airborne off a mogul and put his ski through the skull of a guy traversing a catwalk.

"Nathan Hall was sentenced January 31, 2001 to 90 days in county jail for the ski collision that killed Denver woodworker Alan Cobb more than three years ago. During the sentencing hearing Hall, 22, showed the first signs of remorse to surface during the court proceedings.

"I grieve about this. I think about it every day," an emotional Hall told relatives and Cobb's fianceé. This contrasts strikingly to the attitude displayed by Hall directly after the verdict came in - when leaving the courtroom he publicly directed obscenities to Mike Goodbee, prosecuting District Attorney."
...
Hall's apparent lack of remorse and subsequent violations of the law [public intoxication, drug use and stealing skis] were reflected by District Attorney Mike Goodbee's request for a three-year prison sentence. ... Judge Lass ordered Hall to serve three years of probation under intensive supervision in addition to the jail time. Hall was also ordered to perform community service [240 hours] and make financial restitution to the family [basically for funeral expenses].

Following the hearing, Hall's attorney said he would appeal Hall's conviction of criminally negligent homicide. Neville was shocked at this statement,"The decision to file an appeal negates everything they said about accepting responsibility." "

:mad2:
 

LilaBear

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Yesterday I followed a link in the helmet thread on the forum to a report on a European report on ski safety. A German politician who had a fatal collision with a female skier survived because he wore a helmet and she did not. He was prosecuted for manslaughter.

We are held responsible for our actions and their consequences on the roads, whether it be misuse of speed, alcohol or drugs. I believe we should all be held to the same standards on the slopes. Yes, there should be stronger enforcements taken as a warning to all. We do tend to behave better after a fine from a speed camera or have heard a salutary tale from a friend, sad but true.

In our own cases we are behaving responsibly because we are able to imagine the direct consequences of our actions. Others need indirect consequences that they will rue before they have something on their conscience for ever.
 

altagirl

Moderator
Staff member
It's just NOT like driving a car. There are minimum speed limits on an interstate. You have to use turn signals when you want to change lanes, you can't just slam on the brakes and cut across 5 lanes of traffic without looking. And you have to stay in your lane, not just weave around wherever you want to go.

Not to mention - it's a SPORT. People like to push themselves and try new things. You sometimes fall while skiing, which inherently means a loss of control. You don't just crash your car every couple of days and say "oops! gotta keep working on those turns!" I mean, it's wonderful in concept to ski within your limits and never fall, but I've never met anyone, no matter how cautious who has skied for long without a few crashes. Of course you should pick appropriate times and place to try and push yourself and learn new things, but sometimes things just happen. I doubt I'm the only one who has ever unexpectedly lost a ski...

YES - people should ski slower/more cautiously in slow zones, and more importantly, ski resorts should do a better job of not just throwing beginner areas in the runouts for expert skiers to get back to the lifts, which is just asking for problems. Yes, they should pull passes when there are obnoxious idiots harrassing other skiers (I've seen some stupidity where they will actually try to knock people down or scare them), or when you have people who obviously can't turn at all, but do that stupid full speed snowplow in a tuck and hope for the best. But they should probably escort people who are trying to snowplow down expert runs (or are taking children who are over their heads down them) to a more appropriate area while they're at it. And I totally agree that it STINKS that resorts push for more lift capacity and keep crowding the slopes more and more.

But accidents happen. If you create such serious consequences and laws about it, that doesn't make people want to ski either. If I think, okay, if I fall on an unseen patch of ice and slide out of control into someone skiing slowly on the side of the trail and hurt them, not only do I get to feel horrendously guilty about it, and probably injure myself in the process as well, but I could go to JAIL... that just makes me want to stay away from ski resorts altogether.
 

abc

Banned
You don't just crash your car every couple of days and say "oops! gotta keep working on those turns!"
:ROTF:
just makes me want to stay away from ski resorts altogether.
I do have that thought from time to time. (that's why I go x-c skiing whenever the condition permits) Not so much the going to jail part. But a civil suit, say after I lost my edge and slide into someone the wrong way, for example, can really ruin my day!

Resort skiing to me is a bit like bike racing. The speed is actually higher in recreational skiing! And I don't crash any more from (even downhill) bikes as I do on skis.

I don't bike race because of the danger. But for some reason I'm' still resort skiing, which doesn't seem to make sense... maybe ask me again next year?
 

SuZieCoyote

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
...ski resorts should do a better job of not just throwing beginner areas in the runouts for expert skiers to get back to the lifts, which is just asking for problems.

I agree absolutely. I think resorts need to do a better job of providing "safe" areas for newbies. I've always been a fan of having a few green/blue runs set aside for slow riding with strict rules for violations.

But I don't feel that beginners are necessarily the problem. There is plenty of terrain that beginners don't frequent - parks, most blacks, double-blacks, off-piste and mogul fields. When we want to ride fast and crazy, there are plenty of places to do that with small risk of a beginner making a sudden unexpected movement or traversing into our path. Early season is an exception and for that reason, everyone who rides at this time needs to exercise a little restraint, especially those who ride well, because they (we) are the ones who have the greater capability.

And, really, if we've just gone to the top of the mountain and ripped our way down the expert terrain, is it really such an imposition to slow down a little bit at the runoffs to the lift lines so that others may safely enjoy their day? This is basic courtesy and the refusal to be considerate says, "I'm awesome, so get the hell out of my way. I deserve to enjoy the mountain my way without consideration for anyone else."

Resorts are public; they are meant to be shared between riders of all levels. Lifts are for all, not just the shredders. This might be inconvenient for the more accomplished among us, but it is necessary to keep resorts viable. Without beginners, there are no future experts and insufficient revenue for keeping a resort in business.

If was born and raised in Kansas. Skiing didn't come easy for me. For a long while, I was slow. I flailed around. I made sudden moves because I was learning. Others were considerate of me and now it is my turn to be considerate.

I don't think anyone wants to see someone go to jail for a true accident and given the current legal climate, I don't believe that is going to happen. People DO make mistakes. I do and I don't think that should, by itself, be considered a crime. I fell once and rolled right in front of a boarder. She was in control and so avoided me. My fault; she saved the day. I felt bad...and grateful.

It takes a LOT of testimony to find someone guilty of recklessness. In the case of Nathan Hall (above), it was simply blatant disregard for others, something that was part and parcel of the way he lived his life. He callously took a life; he should have received a much stiffer punishment. He should never be allowed to ski at a resort again - ever.
 

skipink

Certified Ski Diva
It's just NOT like driving a car. There are minimum speed limits on an interstate. You have to use turn signals when you want to change lanes, you can't just slam on the brakes and cut across 5 lanes of traffic without looking. And you have to stay in your lane, not just weave around wherever you want to go.

You obviously have never driven in Atlanta!
 

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