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Abandoning/pushing beginners

abc

Banned
But yeah, the whole thing about taking a lesson is that a skier by the end of it gain some confidence - usually as a result of some technical adjustments/reminders etc. Skiing all day on the same trail that the student was comfortable enough initially seems a bit wasteful unless you are teaching a shaky beginner who is still to learn the main ropes.
I found a lot of private students aren't always interested in progressing to the next level of technical skill. Sometimes, they have a specific issue that wants to be addressed. But more often, we get students who just want to get a general brush up.

The place I teach doesn't have that many trails to choose from. So I had to improvise by using terrain features on different section of the trail and get different drills done on the right part of the trail.
 

WaterGirl

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
:bump:
I vaugely remember reading this thread last year, but had to post the following re: abandoning beginners --

Mammoth has some great early season snow, DD and I came up a few days ago, she was with team this afternoon so I was solo. On a lift up from a blue run I ened up riding w/ a woman - late 20's. I asked her if we could put the bar down and she didn't even realize what it was for (I'm a foot rest princess). We talked for a bit and she asked me "are you a good skier? b/c I just went down this hill and I couldn't stop and I ended up in the deep snow" - we talked a bit more and I realized it was day 3 sking for her. She was with a friend but he was "better" than her so he was "somewhere else." She wanted to get down to the main lodge but wasn't sure how to get back and she had been on the beginner green run before. I told her it was all blues down, and only a small green. We chatted a bit more and it became apparent that she wanted help. I told her 3 ways down (one was to ski short way to gondola to download). She wanted to ski back so I helped her Z turn down a main blue run. She ended up linking a few turns along the way and made some progress managing to avoid any major incidence. Almost at the bottom of the run with the main lodge in sight another skier goes ripping by screaming her name....... he stops well below us so I ski up to him (w/ hockey stop spray) and asked him if he knew she was sking the blues by herself - he said no - he had left her at the beginner area and had been looking for her b/c she wasn't there
-- so here is where it gets BIZARRE he starts talking about how BOTH of them have only been sking for 3 days. "I was sking with this older guy and he said I was sking great, couldn't beleive it was my third day - he gave me almost a 'private' lesson all the way down." (I'm thinking yes, I just gave her a private lesson down - maybe the old guy and I had the same thought). I looked at his new helmet/ goggles/boots and skis - and asked him what he was sking - LINE SICK DAYS - rental ? no his -- all new gear b/c you see HE HAS BEEN TRAINING FOR 3 MONTHS "you know on one of those ski trainers like the racers use" - so he has been working on getting fit so he would be ready to ski. Well maybe his program worked, but he didn't bother with his girlfriend (she had no helmet and rental boots/ skis). He said "you know, since I don't really know how to ski, Im not a good teacher." I said it would probably be best for BOTH of them to take a lesson, an explained the programs available -- and it would be of benift to him, even if he was just getting a tour of the mountain since he was SO GOOD already.

CRAZY. I never thought one could be a "manufactured" skier but I guess you could progress w/ the intense dryland training. Whats missing clearly is the COMMON SENSE and full understanding which, as in any sport, can only come from MILAGE.
 
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I see a lot of people that just by how they are skiing they are on trails they shouldn't be on. Even the chair. Was riding up with this guy on a snowboard who said he didn't know how to get off the chair. I used to board so I gave him a little advice and he got off the chair fine. Its kind of scary that there are folks just let loose on the hill to just get down the mountain on their own. I wish there were more of a happy medium. The hesitant ones that just stay to themselves are one thing but its the ones going faster than they can control that are scary too.

I like to be pushed a little bit and as someone who learned to ski not a long ago I like it, a little. I think being pushed out of ones comfort zone a little isn't a bad thing. What I don't think is cool is being forced or think you have to follow your friends and you wind up on something you shouldn't be on.
 
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GingerSnaps

Certified Ski Diva
What strikes me the most about the entire thing is that most of the people who are going to end up in places they don't belong will never think about until it is too late. They don't realize their friends are going to leave them high and dry or that there is no shame in staying you aren't comfortable. They may not realize how different the terrain actually is, because the great skiers do make it look easy. Whatever the case may be, they end up with a crappy surprise.

I was a figure skater from a young age, and started coaching at age 15. I have taught everyone from 2 year olds to 70 year olds, never-evers through competitors and some power skating to hockey players. Because of the "take lessons" mentality I had there and the fact that I know I am a very breakable adult, I didn't even consider getting in to skiing without taking lessons. I didn't want to add any external pressure to succeed, so my BF who has been skiing for 25+ years wasn't told I was going that day until after my lesson, and I greatly surprised myself in how well I did. I actually expected my figure skating experience to be a hindrance, as I was used to handling something 8 inches long and a quarter inch thick (oh the dirty jokes I can think of). I expected to be a complete spaz on skis, since they were just soooo different. Most of my class had been on skis before, so I expected to lag behind some. Much to my surprise, I didn't totally suck and the instructor actually pulled me out of the group towards the end to do a little more work at a faster speed with another instructor who's lesson ended earlier. As silly as it may sound, I think my complete lack of expectations helped me do better... I wasn't all trapped in my head. The whole being trapped in my head thing is pretty common for me. After that lesson, I took myself to the bunny hill and worked more than anything on stopping skills. A snowplow just didn't inspire confidence in me, and I worked until I figured out how to hockey stop on skis, on both sides (even if one side was shakier, it always was my weak side skating). Only after that did I go and leave the bunny slope to do a green run. I was much more worried about the stopping than the going.

Eventually, my BF came with and I took a lesson in the morning while he went and played. Little did I know, he was being sneaky and also watching me ski in my lesson. After I was done, he skied a couple greens with me and pushed me to get on a blue. I was pretty adamant that I did not belong there, but he was more adamant that I did. I told him that if I trusted him and ended up scared s**tless and couldn't handle it, he has to find another way home. I meant it, and he knew I did. He persisted, and I went. I made it down just fine, like he said I would, and had far more fun than I had on any of the green runs. I skied every blue that was open that day. The first time I skied a black diamond at Hunter was the same situation. I didn't want to go past blues, but knew in some way I was being "chicken". I was being fearful of something that I built up in my mind to be beyond what I thought I should be doing my second winter on skis. He never abandoned me, and stayed patient when I took much longer than he would to get down. He understands I am not going to go as fast as he is, and doesn't expect me to. After skiing the run very conservatively, I'd go back, hold back less and let myself enjoy it a bit more, then more the next time.

These instances of being pushed out of my comfort zone ended up being entirely in my favor, but I can completely see how trusting friends or a SO can get someone in a bad spot. I think most people want to believe we can trust our SO's, family, and friends, but that is just not always the case. They care about us, right? So how are they going to put us in a bad place? Sometimes it is innocent and they don't mean to get us in trouble, but other times I think showing off or a sink-or-swim mentality is involved and that is just dangerous. I don't need to see him zip down a double diamond to know he is way better than I am, nor does he need to be seen doing it. I'm not sure what separates the people who need that ego boost and validation from the ones who don't, but I am very happy to be with someone who doesn't need it. It doesn't seem to be just limited to the young or immature, although, IMO it is more common there. I have seen the behavior in people I know who are otherwise mature and successful people. Add in the other person's fear of being made fun of or whatever makes them go along with it, and you have a recipe for disaster.
 
I remember one time I was snowboarding with a friend of mine in Cali who was new to boarding. I pushed her a little bit but only because I knew she could handle it. She lacked the confidence but did fine with switching between toe/heel edge and just linking her turns nicely. I took her her to the top of the mountain but didn't tell her where we were headed. She was unfamiliar with the mountain and I knew if I told her we were going to the top she'd get in her head and freak out. There was an easier way down so its not like I was bringing her down a black. We got to the top and I told her where she was. She was mad at me for a second but I assured her we'd head down an easier way and I wouldn't leave her. She got down from the top without an issue and we had a great day. I thought this was ok. I never would have brought her up to the top if I didn't think she would be ok and she was fine.

I am a little afraid of skiing with a bunch of people as I've never done it and am afraid myself of being on territory that is beyond my abilities. DH always tells me my abilities are fine I just need to work on the confidence. I will be attending my first diva east event in March and I know there are a ton of folks who have been skiing way longer than me and what if I wind up on a trail that is too much for me. I will try not to stress about it I guess and worst case I know how to side/pivot slip right so I'll be fine..... I always try to look at the trail map of where I am if an unfamiliar mountain and make sure I stick to blues or greens if I'm feeling lazy. I try to have a plan of attack before I get on the chairlift.
 
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santacruz skier

Angel Diva
I remember one time I was snowboarding with a friend of mine in Cali who was new to boarding. I pushed her a little bit but only because I knew she could handle it. She lacked the confidence but did fine with switching between toe/heel edge and just linking her turns nicely. I took her her to the top of the mountain but didn't tell her where we were headed. She was unfamiliar with the mountain and I knew if I told her we were going to the top she'd get in her head and freak out. There was an easier way down so its not like I was bringing her down a black. We got to the top and I told her where she was. She was mad at me for a second but I assured her we'd head down an easier way and I wouldn't leave her. She got down from the top without an issue and we had a great day. I thought this was ok. I never would have brought her up to the top if I didn't think she would be ok and she was fine.

I am a little afraid of skiing with a bunch of people as I've never done it and am afraid myself of being on territory that is beyond my abilities. DH always tells me my abilities are fine I just need to work on the confidence. I will be attending my first diva east event in March and I know there are a ton of folks who have been skiing way longer than me and what if I wind up on a trail that is too much for me. I will try not to stress about it I guess and worst case I know how to side/pivot slip right so I'll be fine..... I always try to look at the trail map of where I am if an unfamiliar mountain and make sure I stick to blues or greens if I'm feeling lazy. I try to have a plan of attack before I get on the chairlift.
Study the trail map before you leave and you will have a better idea of the mountain. Also, usually there is an easier way to get down almost anything.. The divas here seem like a great, supportive bunch of women... I don't think you have anything to worry about..
 

GingerSnaps

Certified Ski Diva
I'd like to get myself up for Diva east, as well, but won't be able to make any sort of concrete plan until about a month from now. I'd only be able to be there for a couple of days during the week, if I can swing it. This group of ladies does not make me worry in the slightest about ending up in the wrong place and being in over my head. I don't expect anything but positive encouragement and camaraderie. Of course, that doesn't mean I wouldn't go try something new or challenge myself a bit, but I just don't see myself ending up in an Oh $#!@ situation.
 

COchick

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Yeah I mean there is a HUGE difference between someone that you trust pushing you to level-bust, as someone who is familiar with your skill set, mental capabilities, etc. and the person that just thinks you should be able to ski XYZ runs because THEY can, so why can't you? Or "it's all in your head". I've definitely ended up in places I didn't belong a time or two but in general, I know that when my DH pushes me in a situation I'm not entirely comfortable with, most of the time it's to my advantage and helps to improve my skills. I know I can trust him to say "yeah, you don't want to go there". There is nothing more frustrating to me than to see folks on the mountain struggling and miserable because they are being pushed to ski beyond their capabilities. I've witnessed so many near-divorce moments on the hill!

There is being challenged, and then there's being idiotic. Some people may even have the skills to ski blacks all day long but they are happiest on greens... so what? Let people ski what they want to ski - if you're not having fun then it's the wrong sport for you.
 

num

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Some people may even have the skills to ski blacks all day long but they are happiest on greens... so what? Let people ski what they want to ski - if you're not having fun then it's the wrong sport for you.

This times a thousand. (Bolding mine)
 
Sometime its fun to go down and black and feel the pride of "I just skied that". I love this black at my home mountain after a fresh snowfall. However, there are plenty of days where I'm just in the mood to chill on a long blue even green cruiser. When we are with my friend and her 8 year old daughter in Vermont we hang out on long green cruisers half the time and you know what we have an absolute blast.
 

teppaz

Angel Diva
This past February on a very overcast day at Alta, a woman at the top of the Collins lift asked us for "the green run down." Except that there's no green runs down Collins, only blue ones. Her more advanced husband had just dumped her there and gone skiing on his own. So not only did he leave her on terrain that was beyond her abilities, but the visibility was so poor that she could easily have ended up in real trouble -- all it takes is a wrong turn at the wrong time. We guided her down, seething at him the entire time.
 
@teppaz That was a good deed you did. I hate when people just leave their people. My DH is very good. He's challenged me a bit but he's never brought me down a run he didn't think I could get down. When we are skiing together and he gets to the head of the trail before me he'll always wait for me if its a little steeper just to make sure I am ok with going down it. He knows I am pretty good at looking at the trail and assessing if I can get down it or not. I still remember time when we were in Vermont, it was icy and I had on some longer skis for the first time. He waited for me at the top of east meadow, I gave him the nod and off he went. I didn't take into account my longer more advanced skis, the icy conditions and I had a hard time. A moment or two later he realized I wasn't right behind him so he stopped mid trail and looked up at me and waited for me to catch up to make sure I was ok.
 
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bounceswoosh

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Sunday morning, I noticed a woman on Burnin Luvs in the lift line, purple jacket. (Some skis I recognize and they tend to stick in my head). She seemed to be skiing with a man. For various reasons I can't articulate, I pegged her as an intermediate skier. Two lift rides later, I looked down onto the fairly steep, bumped, and thin cover area to see her sitting in the middle of a yard sale. Her entire demeanor just looked dejected and miserable. Dude nowhere in sight. I can't be sure, of course, but I immediately constructed a story in which he encouraged her to ski in that area, then left her behind as he took off. And of course I constructed that story because I've seen that (and been the victim of that, back in the day) plenty.
 
I would have been so pissed if I got left like that. There was one time last season when DH went ahead of me after he made sure I was ok. Then I mindf^&cked myself at the lip and couldn't get over it. I bailed and went around the easier way. He waited, waited, waited at the bottom of this run and then proceeded to climb back up it to make sure I wasn't wrapped around a tree somewhere. He was initially pissed that he climbed all the way up and I wasn't there but he quickly calmed down because he realized I'm entitled to chicken out. We now have a communication rule in place that when there's a lip or something he goes down the lip and then waits for me "just to make sure", if I chicken out I'll hand signal to him to go on or I'll ski down the lip to meet him.
 

bounceswoosh

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
He was initially pissed that he climbed all the way up and I wasn't there but he quickly calmed down because he realized I'm entitled to chicken out. We now have a communication rule in place that when there's a lip or something he goes down the lip and then waits for me "just to make sure", if I chicken out I'll hand signal to him to go on or I'll ski down the lip to meet him.

This would be an excellent case for walkie talkies. We have some, but unfortunately they're bulky enough to be a pain to put in a pocket (at least on top of all the *other* stuff I shove in my pockets, combined with the fact that my clothes seem to get tighter every year ...)
 
This would be an excellent case for walkie talkies.

I thought how handy it would have been if we had walkie talkies. My girlfriends and I carried them when we skied out west, we had fun nicknames for each other. We had Tbone, Kellroy, Pamenator and I was Kismo. I might look into getting us a pair since I'll be teaching, might have a spontaneous little bit free or whatnot and it would be nice to message out to DH fast that I'm free. Or they'll come in handy in case 'lip gate' happens again.
 

santacruz skier

Angel Diva
BF and I always lose each other in the trees as at Heavenly and Northstar they are really spread out. And if we don't see each on the lift after a few rides, then we just call.... skied w walkie talkies for years those bulky things in my pocket.
 

bounceswoosh

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I thought how handy it would have been if we had walkie talkies. My girlfriends and I carried them when we skied out west, we had fun nicknames for each other. We had Tbone, Kellroy, Pamenator and I was Kismo. I might look into getting us a pair since I'll be teaching, might have a spontaneous little bit free or whatnot and it would be nice to message out to DH fast that I'm free. Or they'll come in handy in case 'lip gate' happens again.

Just be aware that they may not work across peaks, like if you're on one side of the peak and he's on the other.
 

santacruz skier

Angel Diva
Just be aware that they may not work across peaks, like if you're on one side of the peak and he's on the other.
Definitely don't work if one on California side of Heavenly and the other on Nevada side.
 

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