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Question: What is a "lively" ski?

deannatoby

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Just read Liquid Yellow's review of skis (great review!) and decided I had to ask what "lively" ski is. I see that term often in reviews, but I'm not sure I quite get what it means. I often think of "lively" as being the same as "chatter," but chatter is bad, lively is good. Is a lively ski one that just responds out of a turns and has good rebound? Or what? Do lively skis often have chatter as well, or do they not go together?
 

badger

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I think of a ski described as "lively" as nimble, not particularly damp, and engaged with you ...like a dog intuiting your body language and knowing what might come next; and able to move you quickly and happily. The ski has been caffeinated!
Chatter is not liveliness. Liveliness is part of a ski's personality; whereas chatter is a response, something that can occur with any ski depending on the skier and conditions.
 

Liquid Yellow

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
^ exactly. Just very responsive and somehow energetic and playful. Not a big, heavy ski that just bashes through everything, but a ski that dances over whatever the mountain wants to throw at it.
 

mustski

Angel Diva
^ exactly. Just very responsive and somehow energetic and playful. Not a big, heavy ski that just bashes through everything, but a ski that dances over whatever the mountain wants to throw at it.
"dances!" That is a perfect description! I love when I am skiing and it feels like dancing.
 

deannatoby

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Sounds like that's what I've been calling good rebound. When I move the ski answers back. Thanks!
 

Karlyboogy

Certified Ski Diva
What people also tend to say: a lively ski lets you feel every bump and flies over crud, where for example a damp ski smoothens things out and powers through the crud. Different feeling, both good.
 

Karlyboogy

Certified Ski Diva
Sounds like that's what I've been calling good rebound. When I move the ski answers back. Thanks!

No, because there are skis that are lively, but don't have rebound, and skis with good rebound that aren't lively. Rebound in skis can enhance the feeling of the skis being lively, but lively is a feeling, a preference, where rebound is the push you get out of the turn, which is the movement of a ski. It's a release of stored energy, a reaction. Where lively is in the ski all the time.
 

vanhoskier

Angel Diva
No, because there are skis that are lively, but don't have rebound, and skis with good rebound that aren't lively. Rebound in skis can enhance the feeling of the skis being lively, but lively is a feeling, a preference, where rebound is the push you get out of the turn, which is the movement of a ski. It's a release of stored energy, a reaction. Where lively is in the ski all the time.

This I don't completely understand...any sensation the skier feels would be the result of the skis responding to specific forces that the skier and/or the snow exerts. Any ski quality like liveliness or dampness is "in" the ski by virtue of the materials used in its construction; but feeling those characteristics has to come solely from forces enacted on the ski and then produced by the ski in response.
 

tinymoose

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Like my thread on "aggressiveness," this is another term that I've never really been sure what it means. Does it mean you feel more of the terrain (it doesn't power through)? Is it a ski that is quick and responsive to what you give it? Because I like the latter, but not the former.
 

vanhoskier

Angel Diva
It's ambiguous because, as we see here, different people interpret "liveliness" differently. My guess is that lively and damp are opposites; a lively ski is not damp and a damp ski is not lively. A lively ski gives more feedback to its rider.

Responsiveness is another characteristic; I take it as meaning how fast the ski responds to input from the skier. Damp skis can be very responsive.
 

MaineSkiLady

Angel Diva
I *thought* that this was going to be a somewhat easy question to answer -- and then I started reading what others have posted....and realize I'm not even sure anymore! :doh:
 

Pequenita

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I *thought* that this was going to be a somewhat easy question to answer -- and then I started reading what others have posted....and realize I'm not even sure anymore! :doh:

Me too!

My impression is that rebound results from skier input, not ski characteristic. I say this as someone who was able to get rebound on the old Atomic Metron, which I would characterize a damp ski. (This is in response to the post re: rebound = liveliness)

It may be easier to load a particular ski to get rebound, but this is just speculation.
 

vanhoskier

Angel Diva
I think rebound comes both from skier input and ski characteristics. If a skier can't load up a particular ski enough, then there's not enough opposing force to create rebound.
 

abc

Banned
I don't pay much attention to skis for the most part. And I'm not the best person to describe skis using words.

There's no ambiguity between damp and lively, if you think of skis as spring! Damp means it doesn't vibrate and the opposite is... lively!

Well, skis ARE springs. Only these springs are designed specifically NOT to vibrate! There's only one way to stop the vibration: over-damp it. So as a matter of science, all skis are over-damped, just to different degrees.

If you push down on an over-damped spring, it doesn't just bounce right back. It rise slowly until it's back to its normal height. The speed of how slowly it rises back is the amount of damping. Too little damping, it vibrates crazy and as skis will be very unstable. Too much damping, it takes forever to rise back and you hit the next bump already so you feel like you're skiing on a pair of solid (non-springy) 2x4's. There's a relatively narrow but discernable range of damping that are acceptable to most skiers.

I think what people experiencing are the difference in the SPEED of damping.
 

deannatoby

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
abc, that's a great point. Chatter is also a vibration, but would be different from under-damping as it is more a response to terrain, not the design of the skis. That's a great point. I could see the quicker damping as being something that would make people feel like the ski could "dance," as mentioned earlier.
 

MaineSkiLady

Angel Diva
I can’t speak to the actual physics of all that’s involved with lively v. damp - but I’ve given this some thought -- and the history of ski manufacturers dealing with this is long and involved.

Wood laminate cores traditionally were known for their lively characteristics - with the trade-off being the natural resonance of the material, and thus - chattering (which IS an aspect of “lively!”). The whole battle against chatter has resulted, over the decades, in some unusual - and many unsuccessful - mechanisms and devices!

The first was the addition of a metal layer. Before lightweight alloys, metal added so much weight to skis (anyone remember the Head Standard?), they were borderline unskiable. Devices and strange looking items got added to tips to combat chatter.

The K2 4, one of the legendary early “shapes,” had an LED light just forward of the binding toe, which actually LIT UP when “anti-vibration” was in effect. To this day, I have no idea what exactly what involved with that ski’s construction. (But the red light sure was fun when night skiing!)

Enter Titanal, a very lightweight alloy (and no, it’s NOT very much titanium at all, or your skis would cost THOUSANDS of dollars) that is mostly aluminum. Again, it adds weight, but far less than previous alloy attempts. Rossignol has recently ventured into using basalt, a natural material - but, in fact, it is a woven material that contains it in small amounts.

The road to retaining “lively” ski characteristics AND reducing chatter has been a very long one - even a period of injected form cores, then laminates of foam. Some ski manufacturers still use a measure of foam in cores, but it has largely fallen out of favor to its eventual breakdown.

I recently had an interesting side-by-side opportunity, in skiing a slightly older version of a ski I own that has no Titanal. Hadn’t skied it in a couple of years. DID find the chatter point in it (and was frankly put off!). The newer version does not, at least where and how I ski, have this same chatter point, does have a Titanal layer. It has a slightly higher swing weight but no major change in snow feel.

So I’ll venture to say that “lively” has everything to do with the actual internal construction of the ski, including type of laminate and other materials used to combat chatter.
 

Karlyboogy

Certified Ski Diva
A quote from Trekchick from Epicski, which I think describes a lively ski and a damp ski: "Do you like something that gives you some feedback like a sport wagon, or more quiet like a cruisey Cadillac or Buick?"
 

ski diva

Administrator
Staff member
A quote from Trekchick from Epicski, which I think describes a lively ski and a damp ski: "Do you like something that gives you some feedback like a sport wagon, or more quiet like a cruisey Cadillac or Buick?"

For anyone who doesn't know, Trekchick at Epic is Snowhot over here.
 

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