question about technique

[greekpeakskier]

i like the combination of taking lessons and reading the posts here. i'm a real advocate of instruction but find that this boards give me something to think about in relation to what an instructor is telling me.

So, my question. I periodically take lessons from a great instructor that i love. he works w/ me on "a soft pedal," it consists of terms like "driving the down hill ski, being aware of rotation of weight between big toe on one foot and little toe on the other.

two weeks ago i joined an all women ski group. the instructor who runs it sort of runs a whole batch of ski instruction stuff and probably has some of the highest certification at the mountain. there are five of us they put in the "expert category" and sent us out with him (i'm sure they use the term very liberally). this head honcho advocated keeping weight forward by pulling the toes absolutely up -- as if the toenails were glued to the top of boot. he said you'd never move your weight back if you did it. the steeper the hill, the more those toes should go up.

my beloved instructor asked me how i liked the session and i said i was going for the toes up. he immediately looked concerned and stressed that i needed to keep the "soft pedal" routine going, the rotation between big toe, little toe, etc.,

how about it ladies, where do those toes go?

 

[Jilly]

Well I'm confused. Toe ups to me has always been a powder technique to get the tips up in deep powder, without sitting back. I'll let the powder skiers tell if I'm right on that one. I use the "pedal" in my ski teaching too. This helps with the carving/edging of the skis. Roll the big toe on inside edge, little toe on uphill edge. Change edges, change toes.

 

[Lori_K]

I'm with Jilly on this one. I use the "toes up" technique for skiing powder, so that's a fore/aft thing. The big toe/little refers to edge transfer, so that's a side to side thing. Two different techniques, IMO, and not necessarily related to each other.

 

[Elangirl]

When you pull your toes up to the top of the boot, it keeps you from going into the backseat. When you pull your toes up, take a second and feel the ankle. Then, drive your knee forward to maintain the same flex.

As instructors, we basically all say the same thing, just use many ways to express our ideas. Nothing is "wrong", but some concepts are more useful than others for specific students.

If you are moving your center of mass forward, you do not need to ski with the toes glued to the tops of your boots----and frankly, I find it almost impossible to do so anyway. I also use the "soft pedal" technique and find that it is more doable on a regular basis.

Remember to listen to your instructor, but some of what he/she says is not going to work for you, personally. And, it is fine to say, hey, I can't keep my toes glued to the tops of my boots---any other ideas?

 

[perma-grin]

I use both one does not disqualify the other. I use "toes up when I have a student that keeps her ankles too open and her femurs are more horizonal than verticle, instead of just telling a student to bend their ankles or pressure the tongues of their boots. Those aren't descriptive enough terms and are too open to interpetaion by most skiers. When you lift your toes to the top of your boots it naturally closes your ankle the right amount of" functional tension" vs hanging on the front of your tongues and/or crushing out your tongue. It aids in getting stacked correctly over you feet. It alows your skeleton and muscles to work to gether to support you ( balanced neutral stance). Instead of hanging on your boots and making your muscles work twice as hard by trying to "pull" your center of mass back into a balanced neutral stance. When you have a student or students that you work with on a regular basis you tend to set "Private goals" that you want them to achieve in their personal skiing. I form these goals through my obsevations of my students skiing, and in discussing the goals that my students have set for themselves. I also tend to create a "recipe" (for lack of a better term) that I like to follow to help my students reach these goals. Sometimes another "chef" can add an ingredient that can really enhance the recipe that I am following with my student. That is the whole purpose of "certification". To allow one instructor to be able to pick up where another Instructor left off without disqualifing the skiing skills and tactics that your previous Instructor has given you. Both of your Instructors are corrrect in this case, they are just enhancing two different skills in your skiing. The more skilled you become in your skiing the more "blended" your skills will become.

 

[Jilly]

Thanks perma-grin, I'm thinking about my CSIA 3 this year and every little idea helps. I can see where this works for the right situation/student.

 

[perma-grin]

Jilly You go girl!!! Attitude is everything when it comes to suceeding on your exams!

 

[num]

I've heard both from instructors, though they didn't call the former a "soft pedal", they did describe the same concept. I've noticed that instructors (or one instructor) will say the same thing a lot of different ways to see which way gets me to do it. More power to them! We all think in different ways and sometimes it just takes different phrasing to trigger the action they're looking for.

 

[lynseyf]

I use both one does not disqualify the other. I use "toes up when I have a student that keeps her ankles too open and her femurs are more horizonal than verticle, instead of just telling a student to bend their ankles or pressure the tongues of their boots.

What do you mean by having your ankles too open? From your description I imagine it to be too crouched down? Is that right????

Thanks

 

[Jilly]

A lot of people tend to bend at the knee, but not at the ankle. Bending at the knee causes you to sit, not crouch. The boot/ankle/lower leg will appear straight up and down, and the butt behind aka - back seat. So bending the ankle, moves the weight over the feet. I can see where perma-grins idea would work if someone doesn't understand bending the ankle, front of the boots etc. Just sitting at my desk and lifting my toes, the ankle has to bend. So lift the toes, soft pedal, wow, should be carving like crazy after 3 runs to get it together!

 

[perma-grin]

When your ankle joint is too open it means your shin bone is staight up and down. The ankle is a joint. You flex down and forward to close it, and stand up straight to open it. It allows us to use our foot the way it was designed to be used. Try walking or jumping without flexing your ankles. We tend ignore our ankles, and give most of the credit to our knees, not that they aren't important. In skiing or any other sport for that matter, you shouldn't lock your joints out, it limits your range of motion hence limiting your ability to have good balance. Good balance and the ability to regain your balance is the key to strong skiing. The better your balance over your skis the easier it is for you to increase or decrease your edge angle, to increase or decrease your rotary movements, and to increase or decrease the amount of pressure that you apply to your skis. It allows us to readily accept changes in terrain ( steepness, moguls, drops). Whether standing too upright at the ankle joint, or" hanging" on the front of our boots, both limit your ability to ski well. Is that clear as mud? I'm sorry writting isn't one of my strong points, I tend to use a lot of hand gestures when I speak smiley's don't always cut it for me.

 

[greekpeakskier]

This discussion dovetails w/ the "how much do you think" thread. Skiing seems, like no other sport, to find that balance between thinking and instinct.

I think it's because that lots about skiing is anti-intuitive, which is why instruction seems so important. What is the "best" way to throw oneself down a mountain and maintain that edge between control and insane behavior.

So while it might seem silly to some (no one on this list, just to non-skiers) to obsess endlessly about position of the toes, posts like the ones perma-grin and others have written beautifully unpacks the mysteries of the edge between insanity and stability.

These great answers also point to one of the really wonderful things about skiing -- skiing (i would argue like little else) does occupy this mental space that negotiates how to think through things and how to go on instinct. Even better, it teaches how to move back and forth between the two, learning to trust both instinct and analysis and to use each of them to develop the other.

So, if you went on instinct, i'm not sure you'd ever improve because so much of what the instructors here or the instructors on the mountain teach is SO anti-impulse (for example, hold your arms in front instead of trying desperately to claw your way back up the mountain you are coming down, or try to keep your upper body still as you are rushing to what seems like your death). But similarly, we all have to let go of our constant analysis to let our body take over what we have been learning.

 

[MaineSkiLady]

omg, this thread made my un-technical head spin! I actually thought about it today when I was out skiing - and I'm not sure if it did me any good - but I was aware of my toenails for the first time ever!

 

[Kano]

So, if you went on instinct, i'm not sure you'd ever improve because so much of what the instructors here or the instructors on the mountain teach is SO anti-impulse (for example, hold your arms in front instead of trying desperately to claw your way back up the mountain you are coming down, or try to keep your upper body still as you are rushing to what seems like your death). But similarly, we all have to let go of our constant analysis to let our body take over what we have been learning.

This paragraph, greekpeakskier, connected with me: grabbing the mountain with my toes -- that's the thing I have to give up!

I took an off-trail/powder class on Sunday -- learned tons! One of the first things our teacher talked about was that we should always be able to wiggle our toes, rather than curling them and trying to hold onto the bottom of our boots/the hill. The idea was that the tips of our skis get driven into the ground (if I'm saying what I understood correctly) -- didn't matter if we were on groomed snow or in powder, relaxing toes made a huge difference!

Whatever Tuffy gave us to work on -- one thing at a time -- if I ever let go of "floaty feet" while doing that particular exercise, anything else I did on the mountain was toast! (the rest of the weekend too!)

(another most EXCELLENT tip we got: if everything goes to h-- , stop and give yourself a moment. Better a couple of turns and a standing recovery than mental -- and possibly physical -- chaos all the way down the hill!)

Kano