Initiating a Turn

[deannatoby]

once you are comfortable with this move, go to flat terrain on a green run. begin skiing across the hill and try this move to flatten your skis with a little momentum. one your skis are flat, stop moving and do nothing while you balance on the flat ski. wait until your skis are pointing straight down the hill before you stop.

This didn't make sense to me, but I think it just hit me. When you said "stop moving" I thought you meant come to a halt. But then you can't go into the turn, so you mean stop shifting weight back and forth and just balance while your momentum continues to propel you forward? Also, when I stop with my skis downhill, does that mean I do the pizza/V kind of stop? Once the skis are downhill I know they'll want to keep doing. I don't finish the turn and just do something to stop? I can do the parallel stopping but I'm wondering if stopping that way would screw up the feeling of what I'm learning on the flat skis, etc.

I really appreciate this info. Your post instructions make very good sense and are easy to visualize--what a great teacher! I was going to start a post on turns tonight, but now I can just ask my question here. My legs are always killing me after I ski, but I think the main reason is because I'm trying to slow down to stick with my kids. Last night my 5yo and I had time alone to spend skiing together (so wonderful!) but since I naturally go so much faster than him I HAVE to at every turn dig my skis into the turn as hard as I can to slow myself down. I dig HARD and make really sharp turns. I have no idea about any of my technique in the turns, but I know my skis are pretty parallel. I'd like to have a Mom alone ski time soon, and I'm sure I will, but is digging in my turns killing my thighs, and is there another way to keep me slowed down so I won't fly past the kids?

BTW, I've never had a lesson, but chaperoned my kids' lessons last year and they stayed pretty basic as we were in a beginners class with kids as little as 4 yo. I hope to have a lesson of my own this year, and the kids' lessons this year will also be more helpful (chaperoning again).

 

[vickie]

I have no idea about any of my technique in the turns, but I know my skis are pretty parallel. I'd like to have a Mom alone ski time soon, and I'm sure I will, but is digging in my turns killing my thighs, and is there another way to keep me slowed down so I won't fly past the kids?

I suspect you are exerting a lot of effort in turning AND slowing down, as I do. A Z-shaped turn, for the most part, simply turns us around. Then we're headed in the other direction, still going faster than we want! We then resort to whatever tactics we know will slow us down.

When we learn to make those C-shaped turns, we can turn AND slow down all in one fluid movement. We can stay in that "C" for as long as we need (just as a cursive "C" has a longer tail and flows into the next letter) and naturally slow down, without effort. Once our skis are pointing slightly uphill (the long tail of the "C"), we will slow down.

Maybe one time when your kids are in a lesson, you can get a private lesson specifically on carving turns. The information I'm getting here is helping a lot, but there are things I'm doing wrong (i.e., tip lead) that will only be identified and corrected in-person.

 

[deannatoby]

Ahhh!! I remember them talking about C-shaped turns, but I only applied it in my mind to meaning a slow smooth change of direction. I see that a true C which places me going back up hill would be great. I KNOW I have not been doing that. Will try to be conscious of taking advantage of that uphill tail next time and see if it helps me.

THANKS!!!!!

 

[mountainxtc]

This didn't make sense to me, but I think it just hit me. When you said "stop moving" I thought you meant come to a halt. But then you can't go into the turn, so you mean stop shifting weight back and forth and just balance while your momentum continues to propel you forward? Also, when I stop with my skis downhill, does that mean I do the pizza/V kind of stop? Once the skis are downhill I know they'll want to keep doing. I don't finish the turn and just do something to stop? I can do the parallel stopping but I'm wondering if stopping that way would screw up the feeling of what I'm learning on the flat skis, etc.

ahh, my description is obviously terrible!! sorry, teaching skiing via the internet is a learning curve for me!! when I said "stop moving" I didn't mean come to a halt, I meant stop making further movements with your body, your skis will still be sliding. The idea is that you see how the sidecut of the skis helps you to start turning.

after your skis have pointed themselves down the hill, you can stop any way (preferably across the hill). you can hockey stop, or complete the turn, the object of the exercise being to focus on the turn initiation.

I really appreciate this info. Your post instructions make very good sense and are easy to visualize--what a great teacher!

Obviously not that great! I can see that my post conjured up some very strange interpretations!!! hopefully all is straightened out now...

I was going to start a post on turns tonight, but now I can just ask my question here. My legs are always killing me after I ski

99% of the time, pain in the quads is caused by being in the back seat. move your hips forward and save those poor legs!

 

[Kano]

99% of the time, pain in the quads is caused by being in the back seat. move your hips forward and save those poor legs!

AHA! So, if I've had no quad issues all this winter, while I definitely have other issues that I need to figure out, MAYBE the lack of quad burn means I've cured THAT one somehow?

Well, a girl can hope, anyway...

Karen in Boise

 

[mountainxtc]

AHA! So, if I've had no quad issues all this winter, while I definitely have other issues that I need to figure out, MAYBE the lack of quad burn means I've cured THAT one somehow?

Well, a girl can hope, anyway...

There's a high probablity!! woohoo

 

[Delawhere]

99% of the time, pain in the quads is caused by being in the back seat. move your hips forward and save those poor legs!

Hmmmmm. I have a huge problem with quad burn which has always surprised me because between inline skating and karate, I thought my quads were at least "ok." Presumably, my extra weight must exacerbate quad burn as well.

I have never thought of myself as skiing in the backseat. I always thought I had quad burn because I have my knees bent as I am trying to drive them forward, the old school way to carve. I tend to ski the entire run like this. I have also assumed that my quads burn because I turn so darn much because I am afraid to go fast.

If I feel boot pressure in my shin and the back of my heels is it likely that I am in the backseat? It seems like backseat boot pressure would be more on the top of my feet, which is what I remember (way back when) from skiing powder.

Maybe I need to reassess if I am in the backseat. Shucks, that and my hand position were the only things I thought was doing right! <sigh>

 

[mountainxtc]

If I feel boot pressure in my shin and the back of my heels is it likely that I am in the backseat? It seems like backseat boot pressure would be more on the top of my feet, which is what I remember (way back when) from skiing powder.

Maybe I need to reassess if I am in the backseat.

it is probable that you have convinced yourself that you are not back seat because you feel shin pressure.

You get pressure in these areas (and strain on the quads) if you pull up on your toes (try it) thus pushing the shins into the front of the boot with the result that you feel "forward" when, in reality, your weight is probably back on the heels....

so I'm guessing you are pulling up on your toes when you ski. try to be centered, with your weight feeling like it is spread over the whole of the bottom of the foot. of course it will move throughout the turn. think of the range of movement starting from the ball of the foot and moving back to the front of the heel pad through the end of the turn. If you feel pressure further back than this you will be back. If you feel a lot of pressure on the toes/shins it is not good either.

hope this helps! (if you have a photostream/video of your skiing it would be easy to confirm)

 

[Delawhere]

it is probable that you have convinced yourself that you are not back seat because you feel shin pressure.

You get pressure in these areas (and strain on the quads) if you pull up on your toes (try it) thus pushing the shins into the front of the boot with the result that you feel "forward" when, in reality, your weight is probably back on the heels....

so I'm guessing you are pulling up on your toes when you ski. try to be centered, with your weight feeling like it is spread over the whole of the bottom of the foot. of course it will move throughout the turn. think of the range of movement starting from the ball of the foot and moving back to the front of the heel pad through the end of the turn. If you feel pressure further back than this you will be back. If you feel a lot of pressure on the toes/shins it is not good either.

hope this helps! (if you have a photostream/video of your skiing it would be easy to confirm)

Thanks for your comments!! I'll have to try playing with this. I'd love to get rid of quad burn. It limits how long I can ski. It would also be nice to get rid of the shin bang that I get at the top of my left boot. I end up having to loosen the top buckle a bit to ease the shin bang but then I feel like I lose some of the responsiveness.

Is shin (front of leg) pain at the top of the boot generally a sign of being in the backseat? Regardless of my boots, I have always had some level of shin pain, particularly in my left leg. I can adjust the flex in my new boots but haven't played enough with the settings.

I can tell it is time to take another lesson!

Thanks again for taking the time to share your knowledge!

 

[mountainxtc]

Delawhere,

1st, rest up your legs for long enough to get rid of the shin bang.

2nd. when you put on your boots, do up the power strap first and do it up as tight as you can. if you can't get it tight, bat your eyelashes at a guy so they will help you (shameful I know, but it works!!). make sure the power strap is underneath the plastic shell or it will not be effective.

3rd. tighten the top 2 buckles of your boots so they are tight. re-tighten after the 1st couple runs and again after lunch.

4th do up the bottom 2 buckles so that you can snap them closed easily with one finger. not too tight.

shin bang comes from too much space/boots not done up correctly around the leg. once you have it, tightening your boots more will be painful so you have to allow the legs to heal before you try again. shouldn't take too long. shin pain alone is not generally a sign of being back seat, but the combined symptoms you mention are. as I said though, this is all just a guess as I haven't seen you ski so take it FWIW. This post should help address the shin bang anyway....

 

[Delawhere]

Delawhere,
bat your eyelashes at a guy so they will help you (shameful I know, but it works!!)

This gets back to the "Do you wear makeup when you ski?" thread, right?

make sure the power strap is underneath the plastic shell or it will not be effective.

UNDER the plastic shell??? I just looked at my boots and I don't see how this is possible since the power strap is attached to the outside of the back of my boot and, in the front of my boot, goes above the hard plastic shell, encircling the padded tongue and sides of the boot. I must be missing something.

In the meantime, I will try your other suggestions. Not sure about the eyelash bat... The rest/healing part is going to be difficult. Big snow storm coming!!! It might even cover the east coast ice!!

I should have someone video tape me. My son tried to get me on his iPhone but his battery ran out between my taping of him skiing and his attempt to tape me.

I can't wait for the Diva Summit!!

Thanks again.

 

[mountainxtc]

This gets back to the "Do you wear makeup when you ski?" thread, right?

:ROTF::ROTF::ROTF:

UNDER the plastic shell??? I just looked at my boots and I don't see how this is possible since the power strap is attached to the outside of the back of my boot and, in the front of my boot, goes above the hard plastic shell, encircling the padded tongue and sides of the boot. I must be missing something.

It's only attached to the outside in the very back. as it comes around, tuck it under the plastic so that it's just around the cuff. obviously the back part will still be outside the shell. hope that makes sense....

I should have someone video tape me.

yes, that would be useful!

 

[CMCM]

For what it's worth, I heard somewhere that if you can consistently get yourself leaning into/touching the fronts of your boots, you will eliminate the stress on your quads, which this person said occurred from being too far back and away from the front of the boots. The last few times I've skied I've consciously tried to make it more of an automatic habit to get myself forward, and I definitely noticed I did NOT get quad fatigue like I have in the past.

 

[mountainxtc]

For what it's worth, I heard somewhere that if you can consistently get yourself leaning into/touching the fronts of your boots, you will eliminate the stress on your quads, which this person said occurred from being too far back and away from the front of the boots. The last few times I've skied I've consciously tried to make it more of an automatic habit to get myself forward, and I definitely noticed I did NOT get quad fatigue like I have in the past.

yes, you get quad fatigue if you are back.

yes, it is possible to eliminate it by getting more forward (i.e. centered, with shin pressure but not leaning on the front of your boots).

what seems to be the case here (and I have not seen it to confirm) is that because she feels shin pressure, she believes she is forward when her weight is actually still back on her heels.

to summarize: shin pressure does not equal a centered stance. being more forward takes stress off the quads, but being too far on the front of your boots causes just as many problems as being too far back, it's just not as common.

 

[Little Lightning]

Delawhere,

1st, rest up your legs for long enough to get rid of the shin bang.

2nd. when you put on your boots, do up the power strap first and do it up as tight as you can. if you can't get it tight, bat your eyelashes at a guy so they will help you (shameful I know, but it works!!). make sure the power strap is underneath the plastic shell or it will not be effective.

3rd. tighten the top 2 buckles of your boots so they are tight. re-tighten after the 1st couple runs and again after lunch.

4th do up the bottom 2 buckles so that you can snap them closed easily with one finger. not too tight.

shin bang comes from too much space/boots not done up correctly around the leg. once you have it, tightening your boots more will be painful so you have to allow the legs to heal before you try again. shouldn't take too long. shin pain alone is not generally a sign of being back seat, but the combined symptoms you mention are. as I said though, this is all just a guess as I haven't seen you ski so take it FWIW. This post should help address the shin bang anyway....

Thanks so much for the advise on when to tighten the power strap.

My boots have 64 days on them and are starting to get loose. If I tighten the buckles too much they press on my boney shins. I was having problems steering my skis into the turn, especially in this "hardpack" we're enduring here in Summit County. Yesterday, I tightened my powerstrap 1st and wow my skis, Head Wild Ones, were so responsive I had to ski blue groomers for awhile to get used to the control I had.
My boots fits so well at first that I didn't pay attention to my power straps. Actually, they do wrap over most of the liner so I thought they were tight enough. How little I knew!

 

[mountainxtc]

yay!!

 

[Little Lightning]

Interesting though, my friend who is a ski instructor, male, didn't think tightening the strap first made a difference but couldn't explain why my boots felt so much better.

 

[mountainxtc]

ahh, it makes a whole world of difference, he should try it! Also try booster straps when/if your boots get sloppy like in the spring time. amazing.

 

[perma-grin]

[QUOTE=You get pressure in these areas (and strain on the quads) if you pull up on your toes (try it) thus pushing the shins into the front of the boot with the result that you feel "forward.


I disagree with this. Lifting your toes up WILL facillitate moving your thigh and hips forward in vertical alignment closing your ankles this will aide in vertical stacking of hips over arches. We have done this at the national academy with several different D-team members for stronger turn initiation. However when you are curling /clinching your toes under you tend to push your shin into the mid part of your boot tongue and stand on your heels forcing your thighs into a more horizonal position because your ankles are to open. You want to avoid both the crushing of the boot down totally closing the ankle joint, but you most definetly don't want to leave the ankle joint to open that will cause major thigh burn and a major case of being in the back seat.

I do totally agree with power strap under the plastic though, it also will amplify the tongue pressure by about 15%. We have been doing this with our womens group for years.

 

[deannatoby]

Should it stay under the plastic, or do you just put in under when you're buckling and then move it to the outside?