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What we can all learn from Lindsey Vonn's bare butt.

bounceswoosh

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I find women's soccer more fun to watch than men's. I find it inherently more interesting to watch a movie or sport when I can more easily put myself in the shoes of the character or competitor. It's a flight of fancy that I could ever be on the level of a professional athlete, but I still have more in common with the female players than the male. I have watched the hell out of Pretty Faces and continue to do so.

It's one of the reasons US football has always been so "meh" to me. It looks fun, but I can't put myself in their cleats.
 

bounceswoosh

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I also know people, including my FIL, who say they prefer watching women's basketball to men's because they say that the women have more teamwork. I don't know if that's a backhanded compliment or what. I don't know if such people are putting money where their mouths are. It's possible in fact that the people who feel this way are inherently less likely to spend money than the people who would rather watch the men's games, because of some unknown (to me) correlation.
 

Gloria

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I also know people, including my FIL, who say they prefer watching women's basketball to men's because they say that the women have more teamwork. I don't know if that's a backhanded compliment or what. I don't know if such people are putting money where their mouths are. It's possible in fact that the people who feel this way are inherently less likely to spend money than the people who would rather watch the men's games, because of some unknown (to me) correlation.
I have heard this too. Hopefully women will continue to gain notoriety. I can't imagine today's womens basketball players not being much better than the first male NBA games, there is always progression in sports. Plus the fact that the starting salary for women is pretty much not enough to live on, most of our best women probably aren't even playing. It's fun to imagine that there was enough money to get all the best females out there and stack the teams like they can on the men's side. Womens basketball might be really fun to watch if it had the opportunity to expand like that. Not that I forsee this happening, but fun to think about.
 

VickiK

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
What I've learned was about Silvana Lima. I shared the info with a young cousin who declared "I'm going to learn to surf". :thumb:
 

altagirl

Moderator
Staff member
I find women's soccer more fun to watch than men's. I find it inherently more interesting to watch a movie or sport when I can more easily put myself in the shoes of the character or competitor. It's a flight of fancy that I could ever be on the level of a professional athlete, but I still have more in common with the female players than the male. I have watched the hell out of Pretty Faces and continue to do so.

It's one of the reasons US football has always been so "meh" to me. It looks fun, but I can't put myself in their cleats.

I agree but also think that's why I like football. I played a fairly rough version of flag football mostly with men in college and in the army and that makes watching it that much more fun, to have a concept of just how much skill it takes.

Sadly, when you talk about women's football, what most people think about is the lingerie league, which makes me so irate I can't even talk about it.

And I absolutely watch more women's tennis, soccer, gymnastics, and even basketball (and I kind of hate basketball in general) than I do the men's versions.
 

pinto

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Exactly. Women are not as fun to watch so it's okay that they are not given their fair share of attention in the media and it's ok that they work equally as hard as men but don't get paid nearly as much. It's an unfortunate truth that we both accept and continue to justify and even minimize the impact of. We have women who will never reach their full potential as athletes, stereotypes that may never go away, and that's ok.
Hannah Kearney may in fact be the most decorated world Cup skier, but her focus has entirely been on her sport, she will never receive the admiration that Lindsey Vonn has. Anything that has somewhat of an appearance of attack on Lindsey will conjure up emotion, yet No one has any inkling of a remark on Silvana Lima's story. Whether right or wrong or even within our power to change gender inequality exists in sport. No matter what the reason or justification. That is what I have learned from Lindsey Vonn's butt.

First, I was talking mostly about the money I spend to attend events, not so much TV. I understand that advertising revenue is a thing, but trust me, I watch it all except MMA, pretty much, from high school girls soccer games on the local cable channel all the way to Formula 1 races involving multi-million-dollar vehicles.

A few things:

1. Does Hannah Kearney even care? (I don't know that answer to that)
2. Who judges what a "fair share" of media attention is?
3. Athletes are not paid on the basis of how hard they work. (If they were, Nordic skiers would be billionaires, right?)
4. Gate revenues are important.
5. Yes, absolutely many recreational athletes prefer watching women in their sport because it relates more to their own abilities. ie, NBA is now played above the rim, WNBA isn't. Of course, this also bolsters the argument that the quality of men's sport is above the quality of women's sport, when you get down to it, and most (not all) people who are spending their own money actually want to see the highest quality. And yes, I think that is ok.

I totally support equal pay for women in many situations, even when they are not generating equal revenue. At tennis majors, and other tournaments where men and women share the venue, I think it's a no-brainer. Same for other equivalents: I think the USWNT has a good point in soccer, but as the NYT article shows, it's a lot more complicated than it appears at first, because things just aren't exactly alike. But I believe the "good" in these situations outweighs the "fair." Winners of the women's FIS downhill crystal globe should be paid the same as winners of the men's. (I think this prize money IS the same, but not certain.)

I think in events where the men and women are not competing in the same place at the same time under the same umbrella, it's difficult to argue that women should be paid the same as men unless they are bringing in the same revenue.

I also think that Title 9 needs to be amended to somehow take NCAA football out of the equation. It's completely unfair to many male athletes that their programs are cut simply because women don't have a sport equivalent to football in the amount of money required to compete. For example CSU in Ft Collins has only 5 men's sports to 9 women's sports.
 

bounceswoosh

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I also think that Title 9 needs to be amended to somehow take NCAA football out of the equation. It's completely unfair to many male athletes that their programs are cut simply because women don't have a sport equivalent to football in the amount of money required to compete. For example CSU in Ft Collins has only 5 men's sports to 9 women's sports.

That's a good point. One could go farther and suggest that maybe the tail is wagging the dog on football, and these massive programs shouldn't be part of academic institutions.
 

altagirl

Moderator
Staff member
If we are narrowing it down to sports I have paid to see...

NFL, NBA, MLS, college football, Minor league baseball.... only ever attended games where I was given a free ticket. (Includes every home football game in college). I think this shows how corporate sponsorship and corporate purchased season tickets affect things more than anything.

MLB, I attended a bunch of games as a kid, all 30+ years ago, where actual tickets were purchased. And the other sports I watch don't involve ticket sales at all. Though we pay a ludicrous amount of money for NFL sunday ticket, but that is DHs call. I watch 2-3 games a week, but wouldn't pay to see them.

And that's about it. We DO pay for a lot of MMA fights, and most of those have women as the at least a co main event. And I believe Ronda Rousey got paid more than the men at one point, but she was the title card that brought in the big bucks on PPV. MMA may not appeal to you, but at least they seem to pay their top athletes fairly.

I think the Soccer pay discrepancy is crap though. I get some difference, but the world cup payout situation is ridiculous.
 
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bounceswoosh

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I have seen in person: NHL, women's Olympic soccer, MLB, college football, maybe? a DC United game. Of them all, I was only really interested in the soccer games - very excited about Olympic women's soccer, which IIRC was Germany vs US in the DC area - with the rest being me going along with free tickets or husband wanting to see the Avs play.

Which I guess just kind of proves that my opinions don't really matter, because I'm not a sports watcher.

Side note on the Olympic game - I brought a full sized German flag, hung it next to my friends' US flag - only realized later, to my unending shame and horror, that I had hung it up backwards. I mean, they were hanging vertically, so I wasn't sure, but pretty sure I did it wrong.
 

deannatoby

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
OK, going to share a joke. Some of you won't think it's funny....but if you try hard you just might. I thought I was hilarious.

Here in the harbor we have Mens' Sailing on Fridays and Ladies' Sailing on Tuesdays. The ladies put the men to shame. We always sail unless the weather is bad, and if anything we have a problem finding enough crew for the boats. The men do lunch, and then they might sail. Everyone knows the ladies rule!

Somebody decided we should be called Womens' Sailing, and they were pretty upset about the whole "Ladies" part of the title. Just doesn't bother me that much. An even better adjective would be Die Hard Sailing, but nobody suggested that.

I suggested that we keep ourselves as Ladies' Sailing, and we change Friday to Lords' Sailing. Then it all matches. Some people found it funny, some didn't.

I kind of had fun watching faces distort! I might be part of the post-liberation generation. Never felt discriminated against, never felt held back. Maybe I take it for granted. But, sometimes ruffling a few feathers can be too tempting to pass up!
 

pinto

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
That's a good point. One could go farther and suggest that maybe the tail is wagging the dog on football, and these massive programs shouldn't be part of academic institutions.

Definitely there should be major reform in college football, but I don't think you'll ever see it removed. It's too ... American. I know it isn't everyone's cup of tea, but the reason it's so massive is because ... it's so massive. Football doesn't have a minor league or club teams for development like many (most) other sports do, so that's all ya got.
 

bounceswoosh

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Definitely there should be major reform in college football, but I don't think you'll ever see it removed. It's too ... American. I know it isn't everyone's cup of tea, but the reason it's so massive is because ... it's so massive. Football doesn't have a minor league or club teams for development like many (most) other sports do, so that's all ya got.

Well, maybe they should have a minor league. Why is that so crazy but somehow changing title 9 is not?

I know it won't really happen because people are so frothingly loyal to their college football teams, but it seems like it would be something worth exploring.
 

pinto

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Well, maybe they should have a minor league. Why is that so crazy but somehow changing title 9 is not?

I know it won't really happen because people are so frothingly loyal to their college football teams, but it seems like it would be something worth exploring.

You can't really compare to changing a few words in a law to basically abolishing the millions upon millions of dollars that colleges have spent on their football teams -- think of the stadiums, practice facilities, and so on. I do think that the NCAA needs a lot of reform, even turning college players into de facto minor leaguers (ie, pay them something), but that's a whole nother ball of wax.
 

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