Yep, was just looking at this...
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Technique question for firm groomers
- Thread starter bounceswoosh
- Start date
That;s a good idea, although I do get a pass discount at Squaw/Alpine. I wonder how the snow's going to hold up at Homewood this spring, it's a lower elevation resort.
marzNC
Angel Diva
Homewood was a quick example. You are lucky to have options in the Tahoe area, including multi-day or multi-week programs. One lesson can be a good start, but the more subtle adjustments needed to take an advanced skier to the next level take a season or two to get ingrained.
My main ski buddy is in his mid-60s. If you had asked him about taking lessons 10 years ago, he would've smiled and said he didn't need them. He was an advanced skier lapping Bell Mtn at Aspen in high school. It took a few years, but this season he decided that doing a Taos Ski Week made sense. By now, he's had several lessons with me with Level 3 instructors at destination resorts. He was more than ready to absorb what his Taos instructor had to say. The difference on bump runs after even a couple days was obvious. Really could tell how much easier and smoother he was skiing when we skied Alta last week on terrain that we have skied before.
SkiBam
Angel Diva
In Canada, I think it's generally this (I'm sure we've explained this before...):
Level 1s are qualified to teach beginners. Level 2s teach intermediates. Level 3s advanced. And Level 4s teach instructors. Except in rare cases, you have to have a Level 1 to teach at all. It's not your mountain that trains you, but the CSIA. This ensures that all instructors across the country get the same training and are judged by the same standards. As an instructor, I am always taught by a Level 4 and it's almost invariably excellent instruction. I'm not sure to what extent Level 4s are available to teach the general public (they're often running the ski school, holding clinics for their instructors etc.) - guess it depends on the hill. But Level 3s are pretty darn good - there's quite a gap, I think, between 2 and 3. I'm a 2 and don't aspire at my age to go any farther.
Level 1s are qualified to teach beginners. Level 2s teach intermediates. Level 3s advanced. And Level 4s teach instructors. Except in rare cases, you have to have a Level 1 to teach at all. It's not your mountain that trains you, but the CSIA. This ensures that all instructors across the country get the same training and are judged by the same standards. As an instructor, I am always taught by a Level 4 and it's almost invariably excellent instruction. I'm not sure to what extent Level 4s are available to teach the general public (they're often running the ski school, holding clinics for their instructors etc.) - guess it depends on the hill. But Level 3s are pretty darn good - there's quite a gap, I think, between 2 and 3. I'm a 2 and don't aspire at my age to go any farther.
bounceswoosh
Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Interesting. It sounds like CSIA level 4 is equivalent to PSIA examiner, except I think examiner has levels as well ...
I can spend a whole season working on one concept across multiple lessons. This season, I pretty much *have* done that.
How does one engage the tips? i'm familiar with leg rotation, as I like to ski facing down the fall line as much as possible, but I don't understand what an engaged tip is.
nopoleskier
Ski Diva Extraordinaire
? Level one doesn't mean much??? and is Diddly??
Level one is the starting point and does take training and basic skiing/teaching skills to pass.
YES it will be interesting to see if you can pass it.
Yes L1 can teach a basic never ever ski class but there are many that can ski WAY BETTER THAN but because they have to start w/Level 1 they are pegged as "diddly" by you WOW!
Level 2 is harder and one must ski at a higher level and be able to communicate and have More hours teaching!
Level 3 even higher level and more time in.
Examiners devote most of their time/lives to skiing it is usually 'their day job" they HAVE To be good to get there and have devoted their lives usually to attain it and continue to work to stay up to date.
There are many level 1 and 2 instructors that Do not have time or $$ to take the classes or teach at Mt's where they are unable or have no need to proceed to higher level due to "real jobs" and lack of desire and time to progress in the PSIA System some teach at the same level as a 3 I know one that probably could be an examiner HE LOVES the technical aspects,skis well,communicates but doesn't want more pins.
I've met dinosaur Level 3's that got the pin and that's it... got it and stagnate
BEING CURRENT IMHO Is what makes instructors good. Being Able to ski well and understand Movement analysis and explain in multiple ways makes good instructors. Having a HUGE bag of tricks makes a good instructor. Time teaching makes better instructors.
Perhaps Until you've taken and passed the level one you should keep taking lessons especially since you seem to always write about what difficulty you have skiing yet you have the highest level instructors teaching you? HMMM so what's up with that shouldn't you be an expert skier by now using your theory?
Sometimes it is just 1 thing that an instructor can tune in on that makes all the difference and it could come from a level 1,2,3 or examiner IMHO.. Finding someone that you 'click' with is very important not everyone learns the same way.
oh yeah BTW I'm one of those PSIA Level 2's that doesn't have the time nor the $$ nor the desire to go to more clinics and exams to get the 3 Pin (even though the examiners tell me I'd pass in a blink) Please put that in your pipe and smoke it.. Yes you Pissed me off. Diddly yeah right.
heather matthews
Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Having passed Level 1 NZSIA last season and needing to do a partial resit of level 2(low end demos)I think I'm in a position to say it isn't easy(well for me it wasnt) and in fact both weeks were some of the most stressful I've ever had.I learned a lot about my skiing and I learned a lot about me and thats been invaluable.Its started to teach me how to listen with my eyes when it comes to skiing.And I think I can more than understand why noploeskier's gears are grinding.
Skier31
Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Certification is an important criteria but not the only criteria. Teaching style, enthusiam and being current also are important. It is difficult to assess these factors until you actually ski with someone. However, you are paying for the lesson and if the lesson does not meet your ecpectations, it is important to talk to the school so they can help you find someone to meet your expectations.
Skisailor
Angel Diva
Unfortunately for students, PSIA certification level is a very imperfect way of finding a good instructor. It's a consideration. But there are many Level 3s who are not current or have moved up the ladder in the ski school and are not out on the hill teaching much anymore or even at all!
And there are excellent Level 1s and 2s who are out there every day and have been teaching for years, and who I would take a lesson from in a heartbeat.
They just don't have the time, money or inclination to do the certification thing.
And there are excellent Level 1s and 2s who are out there every day and have been teaching for years, and who I would take a lesson from in a heartbeat.
They just don't have the time, money or inclination to do the certification thing.
First lets deal with this:
Take a lesson. Engaging the tip is steering and edging, not just sliding around the turn.
As for certifications, this can be all over the map. When I taught locally I was one of a few that were current. That's because there was no incentive to progress. I'm currently still up to date with technical information as I've attended the Convention and the Women's Edge Camp this year. I'm one of those people who doesn't have the time I need to devote to going for my CSIA 3. So, I'm working on my skiing, taking clinics and reading. But I'm not teaching and will need to do lots there, before the exam. That's a retirement plan.
Take a lesson. Engaging the tip is steering and edging, not just sliding around the turn.
As for certifications, this can be all over the map. When I taught locally I was one of a few that were current. That's because there was no incentive to progress. I'm currently still up to date with technical information as I've attended the Convention and the Women's Edge Camp this year. I'm one of those people who doesn't have the time I need to devote to going for my CSIA 3. So, I'm working on my skiing, taking clinics and reading. But I'm not teaching and will need to do lots there, before the exam. That's a retirement plan.
bounceswoosh
Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Wow, Mel. As a good instructor, you should know that skiing is an ongoing learning process. Impugning my instructors based on my supposed "difficulty" - low blow.
As for the rest, I clearly struck a nerve. I'm sorry I hurt your feelings, I truly am. I should not have used the word "diddly." Level 1 is an important first step. I'm trying to help a STUDENT get the best odds of a good lesson when they don't know which instructor is stagnant, which works hard, etc. The best odds have nothing to do with the fact that some level 3s are out of date or don't care, or that some level 1 instructors might be really good. Odds are that if you request an instructor with a higher level cert,you'll get a better lesson. As a STUDENT my experience in this has been remarkably consistent.
As for the rest, I clearly struck a nerve. I'm sorry I hurt your feelings, I truly am. I should not have used the word "diddly." Level 1 is an important first step. I'm trying to help a STUDENT get the best odds of a good lesson when they don't know which instructor is stagnant, which works hard, etc. The best odds have nothing to do with the fact that some level 3s are out of date or don't care, or that some level 1 instructors might be really good. Odds are that if you request an instructor with a higher level cert,you'll get a better lesson. As a STUDENT my experience in this has been remarkably consistent.
This. For almost everything in the world that has non-mandatory certifications.
Thank you. I will take a lesson. Was just looking at instructor lists for Squaw/Alpine in Tahoe. Will probably try to get a lesson with one of the instructors recommended by @Pequenita, or one I met in line at Starbucks at Squaw (she gave me lots of advice about skis and teaches in the Women's Clinic there). Your retirement plan sounds great, by the way.
vanhoskier
Angel Diva
thank you for saying this! I was one of those Level 1's who just didn't have the time to do all the clinics and free skiing necessary to work towards my level 2. Heck, it was impossible for me to get to the clinics necessary to maintain my certification with my teaching schedule. It's money for the clinic, for travel, for housing....and time off work which is very difficult for me.
I struggled to get the minimum number of work hours in required by my ski area while teaching, too. I was exhausted. Yet, my ski area keeps asking me to return to teach, so I must have done a good job there teaching never-evers and novices. (That's not always an easy task, either....skiing is not intuitive).
And, to get a little frustrated by those who think that every lesson they take has to be taken with a Level 3 instructor! I also know Level 3's that have stagnated, or that just aren't good at communicating. Again, I also know Level 1's and 2's who are amazing skiers and excellent teachers. Some were my mentors.
Skiing is supposed to be fun, and life-affirming, and attaching an elitist attitude to the sport takes away from the joy of it all.
@KatyPerrey is one of the best and most fun instructors I've had the fortune to ski with and learn from, and @Skisailor
is a beautiful skier whose joy of the sport just radiates from her.
And...I need to add, the year I took my Level 1, we had 2 skiers who did not pass....one was a regular Nastar racer.
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marzNC
Angel Diva
Not that it really matters, to clarify my advice regarding asking ski school to schedule with a Level 3 the situation I'm thinking about is an intermediate or advanced skier who is thinking seriously about booking a private or semi-private lesson. Most often during a ski trip with limited time, but could be at a mountain closer to home where developing an on-going relationship is more likely. Usually for $70/hour or more and for a lesson that is 2-3 hours. Ideally, getting a recommendation beforehand for a very experienced instructor by name is best. In that case, the level of certification doesn't matter.
My suggestion is based on working with about ten Level 3 instructors in several different ski schools as well as a few pretty experienced Level 2 instructors in the last ten years.
santacruz skier
Angel Diva
Curious where you can get a private/semi private advanced lesson for $70 an hour? That is unheard of in Tahoe. (Or at least at resorts where I ski)... I would do it in a heartbeat !
A big part of the reason I haven't taken a lesson since childhood is cost. I've been a single mom for years, and when my daughter was little, I wanted her to learn to ski well asap, so she took lessons every time we went to Tahoe. This went on for probably 5 years. First it was all-day lessons, then half-day, where she would ski with me in the afternoon. Once she got good enough, her pass price had also increased. Now I'm putting her through college. So budget really is a limiting factor. Northstar used to have a free group lesson. I don't remember it being as much about technique as going to check out different parts of the mountain, though.
marzNC
Angel Diva
That's clearly about as low as it comes for a private and a bit unusual. I know it applies for semi-private lessons I do in Utah, usually with just one friend. Is there anywhere in Tahoe where the price per person when doing a lesson with 2-3 other people is more reasonable?
What seems a lot easier to find in ski country is multi-day clinics or multi-week programs. Very hard to find in the southeast.
The Taos Ski Week a true bargain for intermediates or advanced skiers who want to see major improvement in a relatively short period of time because it's about $200 for six consecutive 2.5 hour group lessons with the same instructor. I did one 2.5 group lesson at Taos for $70 per person plus tip. My friend, JC, and I are pretty similar level advanced skiers and were the only students on a non-holiday Monday. There were plenty of other experienced ski instructors available at the morning line up for the few other students who showed up.
Lessons and practice over multiple seasons are not for everyone. For me, it's made my ski trips to new mountains more fun because I have no worries exploring off-piste terrain with my ski buddies. Also means that poor snow conditions don't have as much impact because my technique is more solid. Although what's more important to me is that I now expect to be skiing challenging terrain for a lot more years than I thought.
