So, are my quads supposed to be getting tired and sore?

[CarverJill]

If i'm carving hard turns for many turns my quads will get fatigued. I think it's from the g forces that require me to use my quad muscles to maintain a upright position. I have no idea if I'm carving correctly but that has happened to me when I find a big, wide black groomer to rip down. I don't ever recall being sore the next day.

 

[Divegirl]

Thank you @Christy .

I knew my quads shouldn't be fatigued after 2 or 3 runs and that something was wrong somewhere. Quad pain goes away as soon as I stop and rest. It is less bothersome the flatter the trail and get more so as the steepness increases.

I have had very little done to the boots. My boot fitter is a minimalist, he prefers doing as little as possible to make a boot fit. I am hoping it is too much lean and he can correct it. I have several different pairs of skis and the problem persists with each pair, the only common factor is the boots. I will ask him about the bindings, too. When this happened before, I thought it was my skis and tried all different kinds, widths and lengths to no relief. It ended up being the boots.

Okay - I will ask - how do you know?

 

[Christy]

@Divegirl It was really a rhetorical question--I've been through it. I'd never had an issue in rental boots prior to my boot purchase. It was finally in desperation after way too long struggling with this that I went and got a new pair of boots and the problem went away.

Hopefully your fitter will help. If your boots are adjustable at all make sure they are as upright as possible with no spoiler in. If you shop for new boots ask for the most upright models. I'm in Dalbello Chakras. I had a shop once try to put me in junior race boots but those are out of the question for me because they have so much forward lean. Do you ever ski anywhere where you can demo boots? That would be another way to do a quick check on what it's like to be in a different boot. They'd need to have more upright models of course.

 

[MissySki]

I had the too much forward lean issue in my last pair of boots. No matter what I did, I COULD not stand up tall on any skis. My knees were jutted so far forward it was crazy, but when I wasn't on skis it didn't seem as extreme. A telltale was that I could barely even get relief on flats, didn't really matter the steepness of the slope, my quads were always firing. I thought it was me as well, until I overused my knee skiing at Big Sky and saw pictures of myself and observations from others telling me how very far forward my knees were even on flat terrain when I was trying to stand up as much as possible. I also suck at bump skiing, but in those boots it was even worse because I could not get any extension in my legs.. Unfortunately there was nothing to be done to the boots, it is just how my leg anatomy interacted with that boot. When I got me current pair, my biggest goal was to be able to stand tall and feel balanced!! I still feel like many people around me can stand so much taller in their boots than I can, but I'm in a MUCH better place than I was before. My ability to extend and contract in bumps has also greatly improved, though I still need plebty of work there. Good to know my equipment isn't stopping my movements now though!

Is there any chance tou are sitting back on steeper terrain since that is where it's worse? If not, I'd say get things checked out because perhaps you are just being pushed too far forward as well and something can be done for this.

 

[Divegirl]

I saw my boot fitter today. He likes the forward lean of my boots. He did pull out a shim he put under my right big toe last year as I kept moving the toe up and down and it would get irritated. The timing of the quad issue and the shim are similar but last year I was also picking my heels up due to very tight calves basically skiing on my tip toes. His thought since is the shim is the only mechanical thing done to my boots, it keeps the toe quiet and put me in a better stance - not a great one but good enough. This year, with my calves much more relaxed due to massage therapy, I can keep my heels down and I am not on my toes as much therefore the shim is pushing me too far forward now. He wants me to make sure my knees are over my toes. He thinks the shim put me forward just enough that I kept pulling back to stand more upright. A sore toe is also the lesser of 2 evils.

I will know Tuesday, that's my next planned day (weather depending). Fingers crossed.

@MissySki - I don't think it is the terrain itself as I had problems on some of the easiest trails at Wachusett - Ralph's and Look Mom.

Thank you all.

 

[MissySki]

I saw my boot fitter today. He likes the forward lean of my boots. He did pull out a shim he put under my right big toe last year as I kept moving the toe up and down and it would get irritated. The timing of the quad issue and the shim are similar but last year I was also picking my heels up due to very tight calves basically skiing on my tip toes. His thought since is the shim is the only mechanical thing done to my boots, it keeps the toe quiet and put me in a better stance - not a great one but good enough. This year, with my calves much more relaxed due to massage therapy, I can keep my heels down and I am not on my toes as much therefore the shim is pushing me too far forward now. He wants me to make sure my knees are over my toes. He thinks the shim put me forward just enough that I kept pulling back to stand more upright. A sore toe is also the lesser of 2 evils.

I will know Tuesday, that's my next planned day (weather depending). Fingers crossed.

@MissySki - I don't think it is the terrain itself as I had problems on some of the easiest trails at Wachusett - Ralph's and Look Mom.

Thank you all.

Fingers crossed things will feel better! Ah yeah, I'm sure it wasn't the terrain then, I was just thinking how sometimes people lean back unconsciously on steeps but those would be really unlikely to cause that for you.

 

[liquidfeet]

The consensus here seems to be quad pain is due to being the back seat alot or all the time.
--I took a lesson last year to see if I had stance issues and was told I was fine....
--I have had some knee and ankle problems
--I have put some weight on the last couple years....
--I had my boot-fitter check them out this fall. I am going see him next week as I need a bit of work done and I'll ask him his thoughts.
--My only other thought would be another lesson to make sure I am not doing something weird w/ my stance....

Yes, quad pain and excessive fatigue is usually due to supporting your weight with your quads. Wall-sits or repeated squats are a good gym-type example of what people sometimes do on skis. The quads are big muscles. Making them work hard uses a ton oxygen and makes the skier feel fatigued. It also results in muscle soreness afterwards.

--Boot fit and boot shape can prompt skiing aft. But boot problems are not necessary for skiing aft. Some people ski aft despite well-fitted boots with the "right" amount of forward lean.
--But yes, too much forward lean/heal lift can cause the skier to squat low in order to be centered (not aft). That low squatted stance taxes the quads without the skier necessarily being aft.
--Never having gotten used to skiing the entire turn "not-aft" is often the culprit. In other words, many people think they are not aft but they are. This can include ski instructors who evaluate a skier's stance; they can fail to evaluate aftness properly.
--If you are skiing with old school technique (from the straight ski era) but not skiing aft, then you are moving your whole body up-down with each turn. In other words, you may be doing squats all day. This can cause quad pain and excessive fatigue. There's a better way of skiing, if you have modern skis, that doesn't require all those up-down movements.
--Knee and ankle problems can cause you to ski tentatively. "Tentative" skiing usually means the skier's unconscious moves the body back in order to protect it. On dryland where our feet are firmly planted on a non-slippery surface we are more safe if we stand that way.

Best of luck getting the quad pain to go away.

Video of you skiing past the camera, so your stance shows up from the side, will reveal whether you are skiing aft. Can you get video that shows your entire body and skis from the side and post it here?

 

[Fluffy Kitty]

If you are skiing with old school technique (from the straight ski era) but not skiing aft, then you are moving your whole body up-down with each turn. In other words, you may be doing squats all day.

So, would you say squatting is always bad?

I've actually been adding more up-and-down motion in cruddy snow, especially on steeps; it seems to help me cut through the snow, not get thrown about, and to hold the edge during fast turns. I'm not sure how successfully I am keeping my weight on the balls of the feet, but, with the squats, I have fewer times when I definitely know I'm on the heels or backseat; I do try to keep the torso forward and stay shin-on-tongue, and I do lose control when I don't. So, I hope, squatting and keeping the weight forward. But, if this means I'm working way too hard...

In GS racing videos, I do see a lot of ups and downs... or is that something completely different? Do they not get quad burns or noodle legs?

In case I'm actually backseating all the time, here is the only frame-grab I could find that shows a side view between turns.

 

[captain_hug99]

No, your quads should not be getting tired. I generally find if my quads are getting sore I'm probably spending too much time in the backseat.

THANK YOU for posting this. I thought I was horribly out of shape (which is somewhat true), I wouldn't be able to handle a half day skiing short runs. So I looked up videos to get out of the backseat and what a difference it made. I was able to go on a 3.5 mile run with some fatigue but nothing like what I've had in the past.

This video really helped me:

 

[Gidget415]

They don't. I'm kind of out of shape, too. I get sore in small muscles in my hips and ankles, but not too bad. Having a good time, and improving, but not sure whether I should be putting in more effort or not.

I just got to the point where mine aren’t sore. Sounds like your form work is going well!

 

[Serafina]

So, would you say squatting is always bad?

I've actually been adding more up-and-down motion in cruddy snow, especially on steeps; it seems to help me cut through the snow, not get thrown about, and to hold the edge during fast turns. I'm not sure how successfully I am keeping my weight on the balls of the feet, but, with the squats, I have fewer times when I definitely know I'm on the heels or backseat; I do try to keep the torso forward and stay shin-on-tongue, and I do lose control when I don't. So, I hope, squatting and keeping the weight forward. But, if this means I'm working way too hard...

In GS racing videos, I do see a lot of ups and downs... or is that something completely different? Do they not get quad burns or noodle legs?

In case I'm actually backseating all the time, here is the only frame-grab I could find that shows a side view between turns.

View attachment 9884

I wouldn't say anything is always bad, as long as it doesn't lead to a person skiing out of control. If you're skiing bumps and crud, you're going to wind up with your knees drawn into your center of gravity as you absorb the contours of the surface, but they shouldn't stay like that in a squat. Should be more of a piston-type action: up down up down up down as you use your knees and hips to absorb the roll, and then extend them right back out.

If you're holding a squat, or a squat-like stance, you are by definition keeping all of your lower body joints "closed", and your leg muscles and core firmed up. This seriously gets in the way of the need for your lower body to absorb shocks off the surface. You can get away with it if you're skiing on something firm - ask me how I know - but it's not a particularly efficient position. But as soon as you get into anything that is chopped up or roll-y you're going to find yourself getting chucked around if you hold a squatting-type position.

 

[Fluffy Kitty]

You can get away with it if you're skiing on something firm - ask me how I know - but it's not a particularly efficient position.

I've tried that. Can't remember why; I think I saw someone do it on a racing video, and wanted to see if I could do it or if it made sense. I do remember it being very tiring...

Wait... you said "ask me how I know." How do you know?

 

[snow addict]

If you are out of shape, or just had too much to ski, you should be having aching glutes or hamstrings. If your quads are burning it usually means that you are sitting on your downhill ski, get up, stand on this downhill ski, don't sit on it. Your skiing will improve and your legs will be grateful at the end of the day.
Be careful with what you see in videos, particularly when watching ski races. The viewing/camera angles might make it appear that racers are sitting. They are not.

 

[MissySki]

If you are out of shape, or just had too much to ski, you should be having aching glutes or hamstrings. If your quads are burning it usually means that you are sitting on your downhill ski, get up, stand on this downhill ski, don't sit on it. Your skiing will improve and your legs will be grateful at the end of the day.
Be careful with what you see in videos, particularly when watching ski races. The viewing/camera angles might make it appear that racers are sitting. They are not.

I'm trying to visualize what is meant by sitting versus standing on the downhill ski. Can you elaborate? This concept sounds interesting to me since I am currently trying to figure out why I'm having quad fatigue as well.

 

[snow addict]

I'm trying to visualize what is meant by sitting versus standing on the downhill ski. Can you elaborate? This concept sounds interesting to me since I am currently trying to figure out why I'm having quad fatigue as well.

Keep your downhill thigh high. Don't let your butt drop towards the tail of your ski. If it starts dropping, you are sitting on a ski and doing too much work to turn.

 

[MissySki]

Keep your downhill thigh high. Don't let your butt drop towards the tail of your ski. If it starts dropping, you are sitting on a ski and doing too much work to turn.

Gotcha, thanks for the clarification! Now I'm trying to picture what my thigh does.. will have to pay attention when I'm on snow again. I guess a different way to also specify backseat versus not, yet it feels different when just thinking of the one thigh so I'm curious to play with that and see if the "step up" piece translates better for me on snow. The term backseat can be hard to break down on snow since there are so many mechanics that go into it, isolating one piece might be helpful in body awareness.

 

[Serafina]

I've tried that. Can't remember why; I think I saw someone do it on a racing video, and wanted to see if I could do it or if it made sense. I do remember it being very tiring...

Wait... you said "ask me how I know." How do you know?

Ski instructor spent a good 2 hours breaking me of the habit several years ago... :D

 

[MissySki]

Ski instructor spent a good 2 hours breaking me of the habit several years ago... :D

Was there an aha moment on how you let go of the habit?

 

[Serafina]

Was there an aha moment on how you let go of the habit?

He just reminded me to stand up on my skis whenever I started dropping into a crouch or tuck-type position. It helps that we were skiing on crud for the second half of the lesson (it had just finished snowing, so as the mountain got tracked up there was plenty of choppy surface available for this purpose). I got plenty of automatic negative feedback on the tight crouched position, and plenty of positive feedback on standing up and letting my knees and hips absorb the chop from the crud. It's obvious when you think about it, and just experiencing how much easier it is to ski choppy snow if you keep your knees and hips relaxed instead of tight was all the reinforcement I needed. I do still have to think about this from time to time, and remind myself to stand up on the skis, but that doesn't happen often these days.

 

[Skisailor]

I'm trying to visualize what is meant by sitting versus standing on the downhill ski. Can you elaborate? This concept sounds interesting to me since I am currently trying to figure out why I'm having quad fatigue as well.

Unbend your knees to bring your hips forward. Knees too bent - especially for those with longer legs - is a recipe for backseat skiing and quad pain. When it’s time to flex, think ankles and hips (shoulders forward) before knees.