New skis wonky in hard snow

[HikenSki]

Boy, and they swear there's no defects or burrs or anything? That just sounds wrong.

They did not say there were any defects or burrs. I plan to take my gummy stone to town on them to see if can tone down the grippiness of them, especially right under my ball of foot area. Before I took them to the shop this last time, I did do the check for railing with a straight file and all looked level.

 

[HikenSki]

Did this happen mostly on steeper, firm terrain?
If you don't put a bulk of your weight on the outside ski on steeper terrain, you'll get that chatter, particularly on hard snow.

I notice it most actually on gentler green terrain, skiing steeper terrain slower trying to link turns, and where I need to ski slower (think merge zones). Regardless of steepness, I really focus on getting the bulk of my weight over the downhill skiing with just enough on the inside ski so it doesn't go off and do it's own thing. I was only out there for four hours and am so exhausted. I did enjoy the skis earlier this month in powder and spring like conditions. Just seems like this shows up when encounter firmer conditions and when I ski slower. Ugh

 

[Jilly]

Just a thought, but maybe these skis are too stiff for you. I know, but. When you are in a high speed arc, is the ski bending underneath you? If not, it might be too stiff. Stat wise, I don't think so, but without seeing you on the ski, not sure.

 

[WaterGirl]

Hmmm going out on a limb but @HikenSki how are your boots ? I had seroius left leg wonkiness and knee issues bc my old boots packed out "over night." One weekend fine, three weekends of frustration. New boots solved the knee and control problem. Seems the harder you try control skis worse it is. That's how it was for me, just a thought.....

 

[Serafina]

Just a thought, but maybe these skis are too stiff for you. I know, but. When you are in a high speed arc, is the ski bending underneath you? If not, it might be too stiff. Stat wise, I don't think so, but without seeing you on the ski, not sure.

Too stiff or too long, that's what I'm wondering

 

[HikenSki]

Just a thought, but maybe these skis are too stiff for you.

Too stiff or too long, that's what I'm wondering

It is possible they are too stiff for me, but at 5'10" and 180, I wouldn't think so. The length is in line with the range that should work for me. My other skis are 163. I wish I had gotten the 170 for a bit more stability at faster speeds but like the shorter length for quick turns on the sides of the hill, bumpier snow, and slow cruising. If they are too long, so be it. Will see if can sell them in the fall and chalk this up to an expensive learning experience.

 

[HikenSki]

Hmmm going out on a limb but @HikenSki how are your boots ? I had seroius left leg wonkiness and knee issues bc my old boots packed out "over night." One weekend fine, three weekends of frustration. New boots solved the knee and control problem. Seems the harder you try control skis worse it is. That's how it was for me, just a thought.....

Boots are certainly sometimes to consider. They are Salomon XPro 80s purchased in spring 2016. I felt at the end of last year that this year I may have to move up in flex because I've become a much better skier.i have noticed I've had to rachet them down a bit more now and they've got those pads around the heel, and lifts to fill in space. They do not have adjustments for canting. We've got a fantastic boot fitter nearby who fitted me for the ones I have. Perhaps I'll need to pay a visit to him to see if new boots are in order sooner rather than later...

 

[Serafina]

It is possible they are too stiff for me, but at 5'10" and 180, I wouldn't think so. The length is in line with the range that should work for me. My other skis are 163. I wish I had gotten the 170 for a bit more stability at faster speeds but like the shorter length for quick turns on the sides of the hill, bumpier snow, and slow cruising. If they are too long, so be it. Will see if can sell them in the fall and chalk this up to an expensive learning experience.

Height and weight is only one part of the picture. Skill level is another. Ski style is another. Ski construction is another. Also, there's not actually a very good standard for ski length - the manufacturer decides how to measure that. I've got a pair of K2 powder skis, for example, that K2 says are a 168...but if I stand them up next to my Volkl all-mountain skis that are 172, the K2s are longer.

Ski stiffness is such a personal thing. I like stiff skis, but they can't just be stiff, they have to be lively as well, or I don't like them at all. This is why demoing on the conditions you plan to use the ski (and at the length you thing you want) is so important. Last time I was picking out a new pair of skis, I went out on three different pairs - all pretty much the same length, all of them all-mountain, all of them fairly burly skis - and one of them I passionately loathed and couldn't wait to get off my feet, one of them was fine but not exciting, and the third was Ski Love. You just never know with this stuff until you try it out.

That said, it might be worthwhile to see if you can demo a pair of these Kanjos in the length of the skis you bought. Seems to me that this would tell you right away whether there's something wrong with your skis, or whether the ski just isn't a good fit with your style.

 

[WaterGirl]

@HikenSki maybe boots to soft for the longer stiffer ski? Maybe ok in soft snow but you loose control in the hard pack because your boot is not there to support you. Just a thought.

 

[Belgiangirl]

I'm still in camp detune the edges. With your stats, I think you should be able to properly flex the ski. Salomon Xpro boots are pretty solid, I ski the 100 version right now. Before this I skied an 80 flex mens model that was 2 sizes too big. Could still flex the Volkl Auras I own which are 163cm and comparable to the stiffness of the Kanjo, if not stiffer. I'm 5'4 and 120lbs. You d

I'd detune the edges completely with a gummi to the point where you can't cut your fingernail on the edge. Edge hold will suck on icy parts but at least you'll know for sure whether the problem is the ski or the tune.

 

[HikenSki]

I've got a pair of K2 powder skis, for example, that K2 says are a 168...but if I stand them up next to my Volkl all-mountain skis that are 172, the K2s are longer.
That said, it might be worthwhile to see if you can demo a pair of these Kanjos in the length of the skis you bought.

Funny on the length, my Volkl 168 are actually a little longer than my husbands 168 Elan skis, and mine have more rocker. So perhaps they are skiing longer than expected? They don't feel long and planky and really no longer than my 163s.
Unfortunately, there really is no opportunity for me to demo. No shops around here offer demos and the only demo day coming up on Feb. 15th I am unable to attend due to work obligations. So I'll really not know 100% if it is the skis or me. I am kind of tempted to see if the bindings will work with my husband's boot. He's one size larger than me, so the BSL may work with my bindings. Would be interesting to see if he feels the same thing as I do or not. My only concern is he is not as good of a skier as I am and I don't think, from what I can tell watching him, that he is able to bend a ski in his turns quite yet. He's content skidding on down the mountain. To each his/her own I guess.

 

[HikenSki]

@HikenSki maybe boots to soft for the longer stiffer ski? Maybe ok in soft snow but you loose control in the hard pack because your boot is not there to support you. Just a thought.

That's what I am wondering too. I am much more aggressive and faster than I was when I bought these boots (they are my first non-rental pair). It is possible that in hard snow and when I want to ski more aggressively, that the boots just aren't there to translate my signals. I am heading over to the fitter tonight to have him take a look at them. Would prefer he find something wrong and can make a few tweaks than spend $$$ on new boots to make a ski work for me. But, maybe new boots are in order. I've gained ~15lbs since I bought them, became a runner so my calves and legs in general are much stronger, and I'm a much better skier overall. We shall see!

 

[sibhusky]

One of the benefits of doing your own tuning is you can make tiny adjustments, test them out, and learn how those changes impact the ski. Otherwise you are relying on a shop to not only understand your explanation of the problem, but to identify the correct fix and implement it.

...Because if you were closer, I'd be saying, "GIMME the damn skis!! I'll fix them.".... It's hard to fix a ski over the Internet.

 

[Fluffy Kitty]

I'd detune the edges completely with a gummi to the point where you can't cut your fingernail on the edge. Edge hold will suck on icy parts but at least you'll know for sure whether the problem is the ski or the tune.

I'm going to offer the completely opposite recommendation. Sometimes, on ice--and "true ice" is always uneven, never completely flat--if you find that you cannot get "off edge", it's because you actually do not yet have a good edge hold; the little ripples on the surface are repeatedly tossing you off the surface. You need some edge hold to be able to push against in order to transfer your weight; otherwise, you become disorganized, like you are floating in space and pushing against nothing, and it will feel like the skis have a "mind of their own".

So, before detuning or any other adjustments, try this: stay in the turn, take your time, wait for that sensation of confidence to kick in as your speed drops a bit. Do not try to flip the skis around or rotate them prematurely. Stay "on the edge" until you feel in control of the edge, then shift your center of gravity over; you will know when, because suddenly you will feel a lightness or an easy, natural bounce. Do not try to turn until you have this cue; on ice, ironically, this just takes longer.

In other words, it may not be the skis that are refusing to get off the edge, but your instinct warning you that you have nothing to pivot against, yet. It is not the skis rotating or catching randomly, but your legs instinctively searching for that sensation of security, and not giving the skis enough pressure to edge with.

Hope this makes sense.

If this works, if anything, what you need is a sharper edge bevel, maybe 2º or 3º (I don't know what the default is on your model). I would not ever go on East-Coast ice (or even West Coast hard pack) with the edges all detuned.

The skis seemed to have mind of their own, particularly the right-labeled ski. I switched them back and forth and found that didn't help so I was able to rule out an issue with my boots.

In my mind, this rules out the skis as the problem—it is unlikely that both skis have the exact same tuning problem—and maybe points to an asymmetry in the strength of your legs. Your right leg is either weaker, or you are not using it as confidently. I'm ruling out boot problems, since you are fine on other surfaces, including crud and powder, which requires just as much force transfer and control.

Added: Thrilluvits apparently have a much smaller sidecut radius than the Kanjos, and so are better adapted to harder slow. Kanjos are rockered on both ends, too, more suited for softer snow, louder and more squirrelly on harder snow. Kanjos definitely needs different technique on ice, outlined above; one could say don't bother with them on ice, as they will be more tiring on ice, but they are more versatile on softer snow.

 

[HikenSki]

...Because if you were closer, I'd be saying, "GIMME the damn skis!! I'll fix them.".... It's hard to fix a ski over the Internet.

Oh believe me, if I was nearby, I'd be right over! :-D I do my own waxing but am not adventurous enough to go messing around with edges right now. I have a gummy for any burrs that might show up after a day of skiing.

 

[HikenSki]

Stopped by the bootfitter tonight. He's one of the best in the business in the Mid-Atlantic (Brian Deely at ProFit Ski in Leesburg). He took a look at the boots and my stance. Saw nothing wrong with the boots for now. Said I had a nice stacked alignment and looked good. After much discussion of the behavior of the skis in firmer conditions, he felt it was the skis and the fact that they are much stiffer. Fortunately, I thought to throw my skis in the car before I left the house this morning. So I brought them in and he gave them a good inspection and found nothing to indicate base high or railed sides. He did think they were a bit sharp though, so he toned them down a bit so they should hopefully be a bit less grabby. Said to take them back out and if they still feel grabby, they will do some work on the edge bevels before the boot area. I felt them when I got home and they were much more like the Thrilluvits in sharpness. So I am hesitantly optimistic for my trip next week. If they don't work out, I'll use my trusty Thrilluvits and hope we have lots of powder and soft snow.

 

[HikenSki]

Thought I'd provide a quick update about my skis. I ended up gifting them to my husband. He was tired of me grumbling and being in a crappy mood and just not enjoying myself. I figured he'd probably enjoy them since he uses a similar length ski and takes longer radius turns and was looking to get into a wider waist ski. Fortunately, our boot sizes are close so they just had to adjust the rear binding back and they were good to go. He just got done using them for four days and they are a big improvement over his intro narrower waist skis. He was skiing much faster and stronger and through more crud. He did not experience the behavior I had with them, so the skis either were too stiff for me, too stiff and long, or just didn't work in general with my style of skiing.
After some self assessment on how I ski, what I like, and what I want, I picked myself up some womens 2017 Blizzard Quattro 8.0ca in a 168 length for a steal. They battled ice and hard snow like nothing and surfed over the few inches of surprise powder we had one night. I was skiing way faster than in the past and felt so confident as I learned how they like to be riden. The only issue I had was last night as the snow became snowcone snow and got really tracked out with the boarders. I was catching edges in the trenches and couldn't get up and over or out of them as easily as my wider 85 Thrilluvits. Was actually wishing I had my Kanjos because they just ate up those conditions last month! LOL. Because they are stiffer and heavier, they lack the fun factor when getting into bumpy terrain and take a bit more work to maneuver. They do let me know when I'm not finishing my turns, that's for sure! Today I was looking to do a bit more playing and used the Thrilluvits in the slush and soft snow. Had some fun working on thigh/hip socket turning at low speed. I do wish they had a little more weight to them so I didn't get bounced around as much in the chopped up and bumpier snow when I get going faster. Hoping to get to the demo day this Friday. Conditions should be snow cone like for me to test out some wider stiffer skis to compare to the Thrilluvits.