Ikon/Epic and the effect on skiing article

[Jenny]

The Two Warring Companies That Ruined Skiing

The past two decades have seen mountains all over succumb.

slate.com

At the risk of starting a fight . . .

 

[snoWYmonkey]

I think there are many valid issues raised in the article.

In my area the cost of living and visiting issues existed long before participation with grouped resort passes. Crowding on the hill has actually decreased as the guaranteed profit sharing reduces the need to sell local passes and tickets. This hurts the powder chasers both local and non local as ikon holders have to pre-book dates, but does make for a nicer on hill experience.

I think the bigger issues are corporate takeover of all businesses and even scarier to me are the ultra powerful private equity firms that have zero public accountability. There is truly a big difference between one family owning one vacation rental or restaurant and one private investor owning hundreds in small communities.

 

[mintzcole]

Interesting article. I only learned to ski 2 years ago so I have no insight into skiing in the past. I am personally an Ikon pass holder. Second year. It makes sense for my family. We enjoy traveling and being outdoors. I feel like the whole country is being further commercialized, as this article points out. Skiing now a days seems to be for those with money. How do you fight commercialization while making skiing fun and accessible? Given the population growth of the country (of the world) should we be surprised that there are worse crowds? Aren't there worse crowds every place? Skiing isn't the only place seeing this. We went to Roatan in 2016 and again this past fall to scuba dive. The amount of construction and increase in dive shops and people traveling to dive there has markedly increased. They had to close one of the dive sites for a number of years to let it recover.

 

[skibum4ever]

The situation seems to have gotten a lot worse even in the past two seasons. We have been out of the maelstrom since we basically missed 2 seasons ago and only skied Mammoth last season. We know how to deal with Mammoth.

But as we consider traveling to other Western ski areas this winter, there are multiple considerations:

- Do we need a reservation to ski?
- Do we need a parking reservation?
- How early do we have to leave SLC to access Alta before it's skied off? How many hours will it take to drive up the Canyon?

Etc. etc. I admit that I have not been paying as much attention to these details as I probably need to before we head to Lake Tahoe, Utah or Colorado. Is there a handbook that spells out the current requirements? And how much more complex will it become in future years?

 

[snoWYmonkey]

@skibum4ever your points are so true and sad. Very little room for last minute fun road trips to go ski at bigger resorts.

 

[Christy]

The article has a nice summary of the crux of the problem. We know that corporations currently prioritize short term profits and shareholder returns; between this business model and the uncertainty of the future of snow, what will he sport look like in 30 years?

This kind of value has led proponents to declare that Vail and Alterra have made skiing more accessible than ever.

But accessible for whom? For a recreational skier of means in Brooklyn who can front a thousand bucks well before the start of the season, a pass does indeed open up new possibilities. The story is different, though, for a working dad in Denver who wants to take his kid up to Breckenridge for a day in late December to try out skiing. He will find that everything that is not a season pass is criminally expensive. Parking is $20; his lift ticket $251 (online—at the window it’ll be $279); basic rental gear $78; burger, fries, and a Gatorade for lunch $35; end-of-day Coors Light $8; and $418 for the kid’s rental, ticket, and group lesson (at least the lesson includes lunch). All in, an $800-plus day.

 

[contesstant]

That article spoke to me in so many ways. As a local who skis an independent resort that was on Epic for 3 seasons then switched to IKON, I can tell you, IKON in particular has ruined the experience. It’s not even remotely the same place it was just two years ago.

Corporate consolidation is driving so much of our economy and leaving us with fewer choices, less quality, for more money. I find it very unsettling.

 

[MissySki]

That article spoke to me in so many ways. As a local who skis an independent resort that was on Epic for 3 seasons then switched to IKON, I can tell you, IKON in particular has ruined the experience. It’s not even remotely the same place it was just two years ago.

Corporate consolidation is driving so much of our economy and leaving us with fewer choices, less quality, for more money. I find it very unsettling.

I’m curious about the comparison between Epic and Ikon at the same resort. How did Ikon make it worse than Epic? In New England it still feels like Epic is the more “evil” of the two in the changes (especially crazy overcrowding/lines) they have brought to mountains here. Not to say they don’t both have a negative impact, because they certainly do.

 

[ski diva]

Good article. And yes, it pretty much sums up my feelings on the whole mega-pass thing. On the one hand, the Epic pass has brought the cost of skiing down for a gazillion people -- but ONLY if they buy a pass. That said, it's also put the cost of just heading out to ski somewhere for a day out of reach for anyone who doesn't have one, and done a number on local ski culture, etc., etc. So yes, while I have the Epic and IKON passes -- I kind of have to, to ski at the mountains closest to me -- I also purchased a pass at a smaller, independent mountain in the area. I find the experience at the latter so much more pleasant than the Epic resort, even if it is smaller.

And yes, @MissySki , I find Epic much worse in New England than IKON. Because here in Vermont, for example, Vail OWNS Okemo and Stowe and Mount Snow, and Alterra doesn't own Stratton, Killington, and Sugarbush (though they are IKON resorts). So they have a bit more freedom to do their own thing, without a huge corporation in Colorado dictating every move they make. Plus the cost of the Epic pass is lower than IKON, which makes the Epic resorts a lot more crowded.

 

[contesstant]

I’m curious about the comparison between Epic and Ikon at the same resort. How did Ikon make it worse than Epic? In New England it still feels like Epic is the more “evil” of the two in the changes (especially crazy overcrowding/lines) they have brought to mountains here. Not to say they don’t both have a negative impact, because they certainly do.

I think mostly because only 1 resort in Utah is on Epic. I definitely noticed the difference in crowds AND could spot an Epic pass holder pretty easily. Lots of froo froo outfits. Snowbasin is not a froo froo place (until now.) It’s kind of turning into a clash of Ogden locals—gritty, blue collar—and travelers from all over the world with endless means on IKON passes. I miss the old Snowbasin.

 

[tinymoose]

On one hand, I wish Montage would land on Epic or Ikon so I could use it for traveling, but that being said... can't say I want to pay the price for either of those passes b/c $$$$$. I definitely feel like both passes have somewhat ruined PA skiing. I don't go anywhere but Montage anymore b/c Blue, Camelback, JFBB are all prohibitively expensive for a day pass now. They also no longer seem to offer the same early season deals and 6-packs we used to see.

 

[ski diva]

Another thing the article doesn't go into (I don't think, anyway) is how hard it is for smaller, independent resorts (the few that are left) to compete with the cheap pass offered by Epic. Running a ski mountain, especially in New England, is an expensive proposition, and let's face it, most people are guided by their wallets. Faced with the choice of spending a few hundred bucks and getting lots of choices for where to ski, or spending more money for only one choice, most people would opt for the former instead of the latter. So the smaller resorts have a tougher fight, just to stay alive.

 

[contesstant]

Another thing the article doesn't go into (I don't think, anyway) is how hard it is for smaller, independent resorts (the few that are left) to compete with the cheap pass offered by Epic. Running a ski mountain, especially in New England, is an expensive proposition, and let's face it, most people are guided by their wallets. Faced with the choice of spending a few hundred bucks and getting lots of choices for where to ski, or spending more money for only one choice, most people would opt for the former instead of the latter. So the smaller resorts have a tougher fight, just to stay alive.

The mass passes try to sell you on the fact that you are getting more, but are you really? More days/mountains, but a lesser-quality experience, no doubt. The interesting thing I've noticed at my home hill is the decline in quality grooming and opening terrain as early as possible. Why would they? They have no incentive to prior to the Christmas rush. The majority of skiers prior to that are season passholders. After than, they rake in the big bucks with IKON visits. Then they open everything and woo the IKON visitors. Makes the locals feel pretty under appreciated. They put in high-speed chairs, which reduce lines but increase the number of skiers on the hill which = dangerous. "But hey, look at the shiny new lifts we put in for you!" Smoke sufficiently blown.

I wish Beaver Mountain was closer. I'd buy a pass there and ski there a lot. I want to support the smaller resorts much like I did a lot of shopping this holiday season at little shops downtown. (And a book by a certain author!)

In case folks can't tell, I LOATHE the IKON pass as do most of us who are Snowbasin skiers. Some have been skiing there for decades.

 

[ilovepugs]

Good article. And yes, it pretty much sums up my feelings on the whole mega-pass thing. On the one hand, the Epic pass has brought the cost of skiing down for a gazillion people -- but ONLY if they buy a pass. That said, it's also put the cost of just heading out to ski somewhere for a day out of reach for anyone who doesn't have one, and done a number on local ski culture, etc., etc. So yes, while I have the Epic and IKON passes -- I kind of have to, to ski at the mountains closest to me -- I also purchased a pass at a smaller, independent mountain in the area. I find the experience at the latter so much more pleasant than the Epic resort, even if it is smaller.

And yes, @MissySki , I find Epic much worse in New England than IKON. Because here in Vermont, for example, Vail OWNS Okemo and Stowe and Mount Snow, and Alterra doesn't own Stratton, Killington, and Sugarbush (though they are IKON resorts). So they have a bit more freedom to do their own thing, without a huge corporation in Colorado dictating every move they make. Plus the cost of the Epic pass is lower than IKON, which makes the Epic resorts a lot more crowded.

Just a fact check: Alterra has owned Sugarbush since January 2020.

IMO it has become significantly more crowded since it was purchased.

 

[MissySki]

Just a fact check: Alterra has owned Sugarbush since January 2020.

IMO it has become significantly more crowded since it was purchased.

I thought Stratton was owned by them as well. I believe both are unlimited with an Ikon pass now?

 

[ilovepugs]

I thought Stratton was owned by them as well. I believe both are unlimited with an Ikon pass now?

Yeah, that’s right.

 

[ski diva]

Oops, my bad. I guess I'm behind the times, so that part of my post was wrong. Nonetheless, the (relatively) lower cost of the mega-passes, I think, still accounts for the severe overcrowding at the resorts.

That said, I do think the IKON resorts offer a better overall experience than the Epic ones, at least in Vermont. Yes, there are still a lot of problems, as the article makes clear. But I think they're worse at Epic.

 

[altagirl]

We have friends who paid for and pass out NO IKON stickers in the lift line if that says anything...

 

[snoWYmonkey]

The whole IKON pass issues are showing quite clearly how individual resorts are choosing to manage their participation in the program. The first two years were painful, but lift lines have been better than than the past 20 years and early and late season grooming are also better than ever.

Clearly different resorts have different approaches.

I have seen an influx of users in different economic brackets during slower parts of the season and I see that as a win for the industry.

Being priced out of homes and towns is happening all over the country and was a huge problem 30, 20 and 10 years ago. It would not change one bit if IKON went away for Jackson. No one who owns a vacation home needs the vacation rental income. However, a lot of us workers who are lucky enough to own do.

 

[contesstant]

We have friends who paid for and pass out NO IKON stickers in the lift line if that says anything...

I want some! I keep saying I'm going to do this, but yeah, it never happens because that's how I roll