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Question: How do you know if a pair of boots are too stiff for you?

Analisa

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
So you still find the 105 that stiff? That definitely makes me nervous of the 120 even more haha. Especially because I spend as much time as possible OFF piste. Though I am in the East, so we certainly get more than our fair share of hardpack groomer days.

My previous boots were Lange RS 110s. So also a piste oriented boot. It seems the boots that are low enough volume for my foot tend to fall into that category.. I do actually like the slightly higher cuff of the Technica for some reason.

First of all, don't let my experience with the line dictate whether you feel nervous about the boots! I'm an internet stranger, and even if I wasn't we all have our own bodies and biomechanics.

Overall, I think I'm in the right boot with the 105s. I just wish the flex ramped up more so that they were softer at the top of the flex. It's really only those rare "15 inches on the ground and 22 degrees outside" days where I notice it, but that's also supposed to be the best first run of my life. Or if I biff it in the park. The 105s definitely let me know.
 

fgor

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I'm watching this thread with interest. I was quietly anxious that my Hawx Ultra 115 were too stiff when I got them, because I was moving up from my too-big beginner 65 flex boots. I actually refused to tell people what flex they were at first because I was worried they'd tell me I was overbooted (but my bootfitter thought they were fine). I had quite a few days on the mountain before I decided that they were indeed fine.

I'm going to be facing the same thing next season though. I'm moving up to 110 flex race boots which I understand will feel substantially stiffer than a 110/115 recreational boot. Of course, they can be softened like yours (as a permanent modification), but I'm worried that I won't know how to tell if they're too stiff, so I won't know what to tell my fitter!
 

MissySki

Angel Diva
First of all, don't let my experience with the line dictate whether you feel nervous about the boots! I'm an internet stranger, and even if I wasn't we all have our own bodies and biomechanics.

Overall, I think I'm in the right boot with the 105s. I just wish the flex ramped up more so that they were softer at the top of the flex. It's really only those rare "15 inches on the ground and 22 degrees outside" days where I notice it, but that's also supposed to be the best first run of my life. Or if I biff it in the park. The 105s definitely let me know.
Oh no worries, I'm a chronic overthinker so I was nervous about it from the start regardless of anyone else haha. You're right I don't know you or your anatomy, you just sound like a very strong and knowledgeable skier on this site, so I'm certainly interested in your experience in the same line of boots. I guess nervous isn't the right word anyhow because so what if they end up being too stiff, we can fix that. I just loath going down paths that require too much fiddling with boots overall. We are nowhere near there right now as I'm just getting started, but I also don't want to waste too many ski days agonizing over this. **I obviously have some sort of new ski boot ptsd from VERY bad previous experiences.** :bounce:
 

elemmac

Angel Diva
Yes, to the bolded red above.

About the bolded blue above... I may repeat myself here, since this is hard to explain.

Maintaining tongue-shin contact is good. Being forward on the boot cuff and trying to flex it isn't what flexes the boot. The skier doesn't flex the boot. The snow flexes the boot. This sounds backwards, and it is if one is not used to thinking of the snow pressing back on an edged ski as it turns.

Having the snow push back on the ski's front half, its shovel, If you are maintaining tongue-shin contact and hovering the body's weight forward enough, then when the edged shovel turns, the snow up against it will be pressing back on it. The show pushes on the ski, and this push will lever the cuff backwards since the boot is firmly attached to the ski. The front half of the ski and the boot attached to the ski function as a lever when the snow pushes back. If the skier resists allowing the lower leg inside the cuff to be levered back (by positioning the mass of the body forward enough), then the boot cuff will flex. Assuming it is flexible enough. Does that make sense?

If the snow presses on the shovel of the ski hard enough, and the skier resists that pressure by hovering the body's weight forward enough, the shovel and the boot will both flex. This process requires that the skier maintain tongue-shin contact, and keep the body hovering forward enough over the ski.

Keep your shin on the tongue and feel the snow pushing back at your ski as you turn. Hover your body up and forward. See what happens.
This is an amazing description of boot flex and how it’s not really the skier that flexes the boot. At least not in the way many boot fitters will have you do in a shop.

The only thing I would add is that the amount that the snow “pushes back” on your shovel and boot is directly related to speed and turn shape. The forces from the snow are generated from the skier’s inertia (an object in motion wants to stay in motion). If you’re moving into a turn really fast, there is a lot of force required to “redirect” the skier to move in a different direction. The boot flex needs to counteract this force. If the boot does not flex, because you’re not generating enough inertia, it can throw you into the backseat. On the opposite side of the spectrum; If you’re boots are too soft, they will fold over when you reach the maximum force from the snow.

@MissySki - Having skied the same conditions as you over the past weekend, they were definitely tough conditions to get the feel of anything…especially new boots. I think you’re on the right track of getting a few more days in prior to changing anything, then starting with “non-permanent” fixes (screws in the back of the boot, heel lifts, spoilers to increase forward lean, etc).
 

liquidfeet

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
@elemmac, thanks for adding that bit about how too-stiff boots can push a skier into the back seat when they are going slow. This happens if the snow pushing on the ski-boot-unit causes the knee to move back. Then the skier may fold forward at the waist/hips, and/or assume the toilet-sitting-position, in order to direct some pressure back to the shovel. The skier may actually end up centered with such a crouched stance, but their range of motion will be seriously crippled. So when unexpecteds happen (and they do often happen), the skier's responses may be slow or dysfunctionally restrained. Plus, the quads will be quickly fatigued, and that prompts clumsy responses.
 

Skier31

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Missy - be careful of adjusting forward lean. As I am sure you know, anything you do to a boot affects the whole balance system. Too much forward lean, can cause you to have to flex the knees and hips too much to remain in balance.

Go see your boot person and ask their opinion. Get some video and take it to your boot person or post it here - maybe we can help.

Also, what feels "awkward or weird" now may just be that it is different, not necessarily bad.

It's a journey to the right boot set up!
 

MissySki

Angel Diva
Missy - be careful of adjusting forward lean. As I am sure you know, anything you do to a boot affects the whole balance system. Too much forward lean, can cause you to have to flex the knees and hips too much to remain in balance.

Go see your boot person and ask their opinion. Get some video and take it to your boot person or post it here - maybe we can help.

Also, what feels "awkward or weird" now may just be that it is different, not necessarily bad.

It's a journey to the right boot set up!
Absolutely makes sense! I think it could be beneficial to play with forward lean to see what it feels like, but am definitely wary of too much there because I’ve had boots that locked me so far forward I could never “stand up”.

And good idea on the video, I’d like to do that if conditions/trail opening allows this weekend to see what it looks like versus feels like. This past weekend with so little open was just not a good time to ask someone to stand around on a trail to do that. I definitely think this would be helpful for my bootfitter as well when we are discussing it.

I also agree that it could be a matter of getting used to a whole new setup on legs that aren’t even in ski mode yet. Time will tell.
 

MissySki

Angel Diva
This is an amazing description of boot flex and how it’s not really the skier that flexes the boot. At least not in the way many boot fitters will have you do in a shop.

The only thing I would add is that the amount that the snow “pushes back” on your shovel and boot is directly related to speed and turn shape. The forces from the snow are generated from the skier’s inertia (an object in motion wants to stay in motion). If you’re moving into a turn really fast, there is a lot of force required to “redirect” the skier to move in a different direction. The boot flex needs to counteract this force. If the boot does not flex, because you’re not generating enough inertia, it can throw you into the backseat. On the opposite side of the spectrum; If you’re boots are too soft, they will fold over when you reach the maximum force from the snow.

@MissySki - Having skied the same conditions as you over the past weekend, they were definitely tough conditions to get the feel of anything…especially new boots. I think you’re on the right track of getting a few more days in prior to changing anything, then starting with “non-permanent” fixes (screws in the back of the boot, heel lifts, spoilers to increase forward lean, etc).

It is really fascinating as I’ve never thought about flex in this way at all. I’ve always thought about it as more active from above versus a response to what’s happening below. I mean it goes together since you are having a reactive input from above based on your body position, but yeah it’s a bit difficult to fully absorb and wrap my head around this concept. I’m excited to play with this whole thought process more on snow when I can feel it too.
 

vickie

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Go see your boot person and ask their opinion. Get some video and take it to your boot person
And @MissySki, take your skis with you. People say boots are our interface with the ski, but in truth, boots are our interface with the bindings.

We are usually fitted for boots on a flat surface. A qualified bootfitter can get everything dialed in correctly on that flat surface. Once we click into a binding, that can change. You also have a short foot, IIRC. What may be a minor difference in a 27 BSL can be amplified in shorter ones.
 

Skier31

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
And @MissySki, take your skis with you. People say boots are our interface with the ski, but in truth, boots are our interface with the bindings.

We are usually fitted for boots on a flat surface. A qualified bootfitter can get everything dialed in correctly on that flat surface. Once we click into a binding, that can change. You also have a short foot, IIRC. What may be a minor difference in a 27 BSL can be amplified in shorter ones.
Great point about bindings!
 

MissySki

Angel Diva
And @MissySki, take your skis with you. People say boots are our interface with the ski, but in truth, boots are our interface with the bindings.

We are usually fitted for boots on a flat surface. A qualified bootfitter can get everything dialed in correctly on that flat surface. Once we click into a binding, that can change. You also have a short foot, IIRC. What may be a minor difference in a 27 BSL can be amplified in shorter ones.

That's a good point too.. I brought my regular skis with me when bootfitting and my bindings were looked at. This weekend I was on my rock skis which have older Griffon bindings with a higher ramp angle than I usually ski with. Nowadays I try to go as flat as possible on binding delta. Though I usually feel fine early season on these skis too.. The conditions are a no go currently for bringing out good skis, not to mention they are all still at the shop for their preseason tune ups, but hopefully that'll change soon. I was wondering myself if things will feel better or worse when I get on flatter bindings, I can be sensitive to it and find that the higher my heels the harder time I have getting forward (hmmmmm... which is weird because the sensation I had was of wanting to have a heel lift or something for more leverage this weekend..).

You did also remember correctly about the smallish boots, I'm in a 23.5.
 

MissySki

Angel Diva
Did some chatting with my bootfitter today. He wants me to try and add some forward lean to see what it does and report back. I was searching through my discarded parts from past boots to see what I could use based on his suggestions. He also said he could ship me something, but I’m heading back to ME in a day or two so that won’t work with him being in VT. Haha Luckily I did find a pair of spoilers from an old pair of boots that I never used. Also some heel lifts just in case I want to experiment with those sometime. He said to try the spoilers, so that’s where I’ll start. Well, I think I’ll go out and do some runs without any changes (hopefully in better snow this time) and then try the spoilers to compare back to back or one day nothing and the next with spoiler etc. We’ll see how it goes.

Anyway, I’m glad to have some sort of plan for playing around on snow to collect more data this weekend. Looks like the discussion we all were having was certainly on the right track of what to start with. I’m also still really interested in thinking through the snow pushing up at you versus flexing down at it discussion from earlier. I feel like being on snow with that will hopefully help wrap my head around it.

Thanks as always Divas!
 

brooksnow

Angel Diva
I agree that the different ramp angle on the rock skis could be making it difficult to judge new boots.

I had new boots last season that fit beautifully most of the time, but some days my feet would start aching horribly. After a while I made the connection that my feet were hurting when I taught beginners all or part of the day. What was the difference? Was it that I was walking and standing around more, in a wedge, skiing slowly, climbing uphill? Finally I made the connection that my feet hurt on days when I used the short rental skis instead of my usual skis. Then, aha! I realized that there is a significant ramp angle on the rentals but my own skis have no ramp angle. As a test I switched the short skis to ones with no ramp angle and my feet were much happier.
 

Covie

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
To check the forward lean yourself put the boots on, and do up the buckles as per usual. As you look in a full length mirror try to get your thighs parallel with the floor. If you can’t then the boots are too upright. If you can fold right up then there is too much forward lean for you. If it’s not right try putting something underneath the toe and try again, and under the heel and try again. Of course once in bindings the ramp angle is different than your floor but this test will show you if there is a glaring issue with forward lean.
 

Covie

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Excuse my kid smudged mirror and shorts that apparently shouldn’t be worn in a seated position ahhh - but here is an example in a pair of freshly purchased boots. I think I need slightly more forward lean to get my thighs parallel with the floor but it’s passable.
 

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vickie

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
When my Atomics were failing me, I had an assessment done. The bootfitter said that boot was not the best for me, but he could make it work. I skied them for a few more weeks, then replaced them.

I wrote notes from that assessment. You could do some of these things at home to gather some data. And I know you like gathering data on this! To reiterate for others -- this is data gathering ... not diagnosing, not prescribing solutions, and certainly not replacing the knowledge of an expert bootfitter.

Stand in sock feet, facing a long mirror. Probably best to be on a hard, flat surface. Assume a skiing stance. Maybe notice how each of your knees track as you bend them. Do they move to the inside or outside?

Put on your boots and buckle them just as you would for skiing. Assume a skiing stance.

I think the first thing he checked was the effect of adding a thin shim under my toes (a gas pedal). I was equally balanced (or unbalanced) with or without them, so there was no benefit to be derived by them. He removed the shim.

In your buckled boots, assume a skiing stance. How do you knees track? Did they move inside or outside? Move your legs to the left and then to the right as if edging skis. You might need something to hang onto or support yourself with as you do this, especially if you're on a hard surface. [The bootfitter told me I was not forward enough and that I drop my hip when I emulate edging. No idea how to describe what he was seeing. But when he held up a full length mirror to show me, what I saw was that my legs were not aligned, one to the other. They were all over each other. I thought I looked like a kid who had to pee.]

Unbuckle the boots – completely unbuckled, not just loosened. Assume ski stance. Emulate edging. [For me, this was totally different. I was more solid on my feet. I was far enough forward. And the edging motions didn't make me feel like my legs were fighting anything, including each other. This difference between buckled and loose boots indicated to the bootfitter that the forward lean of my boots was wrong.]

Having a better stance and being able to move better with loose rather than buckled boots led me to ask whether my boots were too stiff. The bootfitter said no, that I was already laying on the tongues; ski boots are supposed to fit without even being buckled; buckling provides an extra layer of support; boots should not feel totally different between being buckled and unbuckled.

I cannot explain why too little forward lean caused me to drop my hip or caused my legs to not be aligned with each other when emulating edging. I do wonder how much extra stress that puts on muscles, joints, and ligaments when skiing and how much more injury-prone that would make a skier.

Then, add the spoilers and/or other material to your boots to increase the forward lean, buckle the boots as you would for skiing, and try the movements again. Do your knees track differently? Better or worse? When doing edging movements, are your legs aligned better or worse? Do you feel more stable or balanced, or less so? Is it easier or harder to get into a proper forward ski stance?

You can try the same things with some type of shim as a heel lift or thin materials to lift the toes (gas pedals).

@MissySki, you posted previously that you have some significant A-framing when you ski and that you were planning to have that addressed with your next boots. If you do the tests my bootfitter had me try, you might pay attention to left vs. right leg, compare whether there are differences in your alignment in the old boots (buckled, unbuckled) vs. new boots (buckled, unbuckled), and no boots. And make notes to take to the bootfitter when you go back. You might also take with you the materials you used as spoilers/shims so they can see the thickness. You might even take photos as you go and sit back later and look at some of those side by side to more objectively see what effect each change had.

Your bootfitter may perform different kinds of tests from what my bootfitter did. But gathering data may give them a starting point. It gives you points for discussion and better understanding of what they're doing. And may give you more confidence in whatever changes are eventually made.

Also, if you were A-framing before and the boots are fitted in a way that reduces or eliminates that, things will feel different and it may take you a little time for that to feel natural. Whatever changes are made -- whether by your testing out some things on the hill that felt better at home or by your bootfitter as they dial in the fitting -- ski some easier runs at first and pay attention to how your boots and skis feel. My bootfitter made the shims and gave them to me to test out on the mountain (no shims, thick shim only, both thick and thin together) before installing them permanently in my boots. I spent several hours on the hill experimenting with the shims on different runs, then had my instructor install the shims so I was kind of blind testing them and he was assessing the impact they had on my skiing.
 

BackCountryGirl

Angel Diva
I am 100% sure that one of the seasonal program coaches can help you evaluate the boots when you get going.
 

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