Question: How do you know if a pair of boots are too stiff for you?

[MissySki]

I was able to try out my new boots this past weekend. As a refresher from my bootfitting, we did go up to a higher flex with the assumption that we likely would need to soften them once I skied a bit. I over flexed the next level down, so my fitter preferred we go up in flex because he can easily soften them versus trying to do the opposite.

First impressions of my boots

Where: Sunday River on ungroomed black and blue terrain, opening weekend.
Fit: Wonderful! I've never skied pain free on day 1, and I usually have really really bad pain in the forefoot area, so this was truly amazing to finally find that. My fitter did a fantastic job of shaping my boots to my feet to start., I couldn't be more grateful. My feet were a little scrunched feeling in front, but I expect that to ease as the liners break in. They actually fit so well that I had my booster strap nice and tight and then everything else just latched and everything felt tight/my feet didn't move at all. All in all, super pleased.
Performance: I definitely notice the stiffness. I feel like I need to try really hard to flex enough and that I might still not be getting there. Also, my shins (near the top of the tongues) were sore by the end of day 1 from pushing forward so hard. I'm NOT one for heel lifts (actually kind of hate them because they usually wreak havoc for me), but on day 1 I for some reason remember saying that I almost wished for a heel lift because it felt like I needed just a little more leverage to flex forward and engage my ski tips more. I do have the booster straps with (I think) 3 layers, so I wonder if just cutting one of those out would help things.

Anyway, how does one know for sure if a boot is too stiff for them? Right now I kind of feel it's a question of when, not if, we will soften but I also don't want to be too hasty when I've skied them all of 6 hours on limited terrain. I'm not sure for example if I just need to get used to a higher flex for a bit, get my ski legs back, if they'll break in some with more use because day 2 already did feel a little better than day 1, etc. Or should I just be like no this is obvious and it should be dealt with asap? With the holiday weekend coming I will probably be skiing them another 3-ish days, so is that enough time to really get a feel for what the path forward should be?

I've messaged my bootfitter with my initial feeling from being on snow so I know we'll be talking soon and I can see what his thoughts are. Curious what the divas have to say in the meantime though!

 

[vickie]

Has the forward lean been checked/set?I'd play with that before softening the boot. Matter of fact, I'd tinker with every changeable thing before I'd have permanent alterations to a boot.

 

[Skier31]

Do you like the performance? Do you like the response from the boot?

I do not worry about “flexing” the boot. I think about moving my ankles inside the boot. If you like the performance, great!

There may be an adjustment period.

 

[MissySki]

Has the forward lean been checked/set?I'd play with that before softening the boot. Matter of fact, I'd tinker with every changeable thing before I'd have permanent alterations to a boot.

Oh yes, I was definitely thinking more of non-permanent things like screws, booster strap thickness, etc. I can’t really recall if we did anything with forward lean, so that’s something to ask. I feel stupid asking this, but what would a forward lean adjustment look like exactly?

 

[MissySki]

Do you like the performance? Do you like the response from the boot?

I do not worry about “flexing” the boot. I think about moving my ankles inside the boot. If you like the performance, great!

There may be an adjustment period.

I can’t tell yet to be honest, I’m not feeling like I can totally get the responsiveness I’m looking for at all times. Everything feels so locked in, I’m not sure if I’m able to move them appropriately. This sounds like it should be my focus next time I go out. I was admittedly very inside my head on the whole flex issue before I ever even went to ski. I’ve been a bit nervous about it waiting to try them and was very focused on that movement building it up in my mind. Also, being on rougher terrain to start probably didn’t help with testing the basic ski movements in new boots and getting back into just skiing. Hopefully there will be more terrain open this weekend that will be conducive to slowing down and working on some ankle movements.

 

[Jilly]

Forward lean would be on the back of the boot cuff. Usually a screw or slide. I don't have my boots here to take a picture.

 

[vickie]

what would a forward lean adjustment look like exactly?

Depends on the boot.

My Atomics had something -- maybe like a dial? -- on the side or back with markings for 13, 15, and 17. You needed the Atomic tool to loosen it and change the setting. 15* is about the right setting for me.

My Langes come set to 12*. Not adjustable. At 12*, I cannot stay forward. I loosened the buckles and skied with lots of gap behind my calves. Until the snow would bounce me back, I had much better control over the skis. The bootfitter added very dense foam pads behind my calf at the top of the liner between the liner and the shell. There's a photo on here somewhere. I'll try to find it.

 

[vickie]

Here's the post with photos of the shims.

And here, looking down the back of the boot, I see my shims measure 5/16" thick. The white piece is the back of the liner. Behind it is a thin black shim, then a thick brown shim.



You can test it out yourself by folding up trail maps and shoving them between the liner and shell. Or dense cardboard. Or packs of 2x2 Post-it notes. If you try it, you may want to try a thick "shim", a medium one, and none to see how it affects the feeling of the skis.

 

[MissySki]

Here's the post with photos of the shims.

And here, looking down the back of the boot, I see my shims measure 5/16" thick. The white piece is the back of the liner. Behind it is a thin black shim, then a thick brown shim.

View attachment 17014

You can test it out yourself by folding up trail maps and shoving them between the liner and shell. Or dense cardboard. Or packs of 2x2 Post-it notes. If you try it, you may want to try a thick "shim", a medium one, and none to see how it affects the feeling of the skis.

Thanks! My boots do not seem to have an adjustment for forward lean, so I’d need to rig something like this to see how it feels.

 

[liquidfeet]

Do you like the performance? Do you like the response from the boot?

I do not worry about “flexing” the boot. I think about moving my ankles inside the boot. If you like the performance, great!

There may be an adjustment period.

Agree.

Many skiers think "flexing the boot" is a worthy goal because it makes something about their turns better. So they choose a boot in the shop on the basis of being able to flex it while standing there in front of the bootfitter. Misunderstandings abound in this scenario.

So .... if a recently bought boot feels great on snow while skiing, and the skis make the turns the skier wants when the skier wears the new boot, but the boot does not flex, such skiers are worried. Don't be that skier. This is a major misunderstanding. Consider the following.

When a skier makes high-speed, high-edge-angle, carved turns:
When you are going mach schnell with high edge angles, with tails following tips, you'll most likely want the boot to flex when the pressure maxes out at the fall line. You won't be trying to flex the boot. You'll be trying to increase the edge angles before the fall line in order to shorten the turn radius so your turns will go where you want them to go .... and as a side effect, at the fall line, when the underfoot pressure is greatest, the boot will probably flex. It will have reached its limit in supporting your shin without bending forward, and flex it will. Then you'll start releasing the turn and the boot flex will disappear as the underfoot pressure decreases. (a) Some expert skiers who spend time skiing very fast with high edge angles and hips to snow may want their boots to not flex at this point. Not flexing means they have more control over the tip-to-tail underski pressure distribution. But how many of us are experts of that type? (b) Other skiers who are learning to ski with high edge angles and hip to snow may be seeking to get the underfoot pressure high enough to flex the boot as a goal. This is because feeling that tongue flex serves as a signal that high edge angles have been successfully reached. The boot flex is a side-effect that the skier's shin can feel and that the skier can seek to diagnose the success of attaining very high edge angles at the fall line. There are no mirrors at the side of the trail, so feeling the boot flex can provide the proof.

When any skier makes turns on bumpy-lumpy terrain:
When you are making turns on snow that presses back on your skis irregularly, since the surface of snow is irregular, you'll want your boots to flex. Why? In order to absorb the inconsistencies in the underfoot pressure due to the quirky jerky snow under your feet. The boot flex will serve as you shock absorbers. It will help you to ski more smoothly, rather than feeling like you are skiing on a washboard-like surface. Loosening the top buckle on the cuff, and using a Booster Strap as a replacement for the Power Strap that comes with the boot can aid the skier in setting up the boot to get it to flex in this type of situation.

When any skier is in over their heads and struggling to gain control:
When you are on snow that makes you feel uncertain about how to manage your turns, and you go into trial-and-error mode, doing this and then doing that in order to find what works best, it's good for your boots to absorb your jerky unrhythmic movements. You may want the boot to flex because the flexing serves to smooth out the performance of your skis. When the cuff flexes, it helps you avoid having to deal with a teeth-rattling ride, and if you over-react to something the flex will absorb your jerky movement so the skis don't jerk and throw you. If a skier finds themselves in this trial-and-error mode often, the purchasing a lower-flexing boot is warranted. Otherwise, a higher flexing boot is a better idea, because it delivers more control over the underski pressure distribution from tip to tail.

Anomaly - bruising on the shin at the top of the tongue:
When this happens, the issue is not the flex of the boot. It's the pressure distribution along the vertical length of the tongue. A bruise at the top of the tongue/cuff on the shin is called "shin-bang." It happens because the shin-tongue contact below the top edge of the tongue is insufficient to bear part of the load of pressure delivered to the shin. The fix is to tighten the lower cuff buckle and maybe loosen the top buckle, so that the pressure the shin feels as pressure builds is equal from bottom to top of the shin. The bruising at the top of the tongue should disappear. Another thing many skiers do is replace the inflexible velcro "power strap" at the top of the boot with an elastic "Booster Strap." The Booster is sold in three stiffnesses. Pick the stretchiest if you go slow on low pitch terrain mostly. Pick the stiffest if you are a racer. Everyone else pick the middle stiffness. A bootfitter at the ski shop where you buy the Booster Strap should install it for free on the spot. Wrap the Booster Strap around the liner, not around the shell where the velcro power strap was. Once the Booster is clamped tight, then buckle the two cuff buckles that hold the shell tight around the liner. Shin Bang should disappear.

 

[vickie]

Lange sells a shim for this purpose. I assumed that's what the bootfitter would use. But I found only one shim online -- no variety of thicknesses. Then the bootfitter told me those are a hard material and he prefers something that can be compressed slightly -- just so if the skier pushes back against it, there's a little bit of give.

 

[Analisa]

I skied the Mach1 Pro for the 1 year it was a 115, and got it replaced with the 120 after bootfitting accident, and had them swap for the 105. They're definitely stiffer than similarly rated peers, and it's also one of the taller cuff options on the market for women. It's also marketed as a "piste" boot where the top of the flex is rather stiff. (If you happen to be coming from an Atomic, their Hawx line has a more dramatic ramp, where it feels softer at top of the flex and feels much stiffer the more it's flexed. Same for a 3-piece boot if you're coming from one of those). That softness at the top of the flex in an all-mountain boot helps for absorbing vibrations in inconsistent snow, getting leverage on the boot in low density pow, and landings for any drops and airs.

I don't love in store flex tests since plastics are affected by temperature, and some more than others. Alone, it doesn't take into consideration terrain and conditions someone likes to ski.

We rarely get light, low density snow in the PNW, but when it happens, I definitely feel the stiffness of the 105. I can't get enough leverage to shift my body weight or add more or less pressure to the tips of the ski. I'd also consider it feeling "locked in." The shape of the boot is constant and the shell doesn't have any give to respond to my body movement. I feel like it also forces me to shift weight into my heels and heel push to get *some* kind of steering and control. It's better in our usual hot pow conditions and best on groomers.

I'd hold off on any permanent changes at this point. I've noticed that sometimes it takes me a while to fully "make friends" with new boots. The stance is a little different and I hold back until I figure out their limits. I'd also play with heel lifts to adjust your stance. They're a pretty upright and flat boot so getting your weight a little more forward might help it feel right.

 

[liquidfeet]

Lange sells a shim for this purpose. I assumed that's what the bootfitter would use. But I found only one shim online -- no variety of thicknesses. Then the bootfitter told me those are a hard material and he prefers something that can be compressed slightly -- just so if the skier pushes back against it, there's a little bit of give.

@vickie, are you talking about the Eliminator Tongue?

 

[santacruz skier]

My new Dalbello Asolo GW 95 are marketed as a "piste" boot. I noticed this after I bought them. I wondered exactly what that meant. I'm not necessarily a piste skier. I like all kinds of terrain and ski everything. Definitely an all mountain skier.
Thanks @Analisa for explaining. I've mentioned in other threads I CANNOT get into those boots wearing the thinnest socks on the market ($30 a pair) )without a boot horn.
Hang in there @MissySki for awhile. I definitely (even though you may want the problem fixed ASAP) would try skiing several more days before doing anything drastic.

 

[vickie]

@vickie, are you talking about the Eliminator Tongue?

Nope. It was a (as I recall) white plastic shim on Lange's site. It was intended to go at the back where my current shims are. I asked the bootfitter if they stocked them or if I needed to order them. That's when I learned about his preference for very dense foam.

I don't find anything on Lange's site now that addresses the forward lean of the RX 90 W. It was on their site last year that I learned the forward lean is set at 12*.

Perhaps the more correct statement is "Lange sold" since it appears that item is not available now, at least to mere customers.

 

[MissySki]

Agree.

Many skiers think "flexing the boot" is a worthy goal because it makes something about their turns better. So they choose a boot in the shop on the basis of being able to flex it while standing there in front of the bootfitter. Misunderstandings abound in this scenario.

So .... if a recently bought boot feels great on snow while skiing, and the skis make the turns the skier wants when the skier wears the new boot, but the boot does not flex, such skiers are worried. Don't be that skier. This is a major misunderstanding. Consider the following.

When a skier makes high-speed, high-edge-angle, carved turns:
When you are going mach schnell with high edge angles, with tails following tips, you'll most likely want the boot to flex when the pressure maxes out at the fall line. You won't be trying to flex the boot. You'll be trying to increase the edge angles before the fall line in order to shorten the turn radius so your turns will go where you want them to go .... and as a side effect, at the fall line, when the underfoot pressure is greatest, the boot will probably flex. It will have reached its limit in supporting your shin without bending forward, and flex it will. Then you'll start releasing the turn and the boot flex will disappear as the underfoot pressure decreases. (a) Some expert skiers who spend time skiing very fast with high edge angles and hips to snow may want their boots to not flex at this point. Not flexing means they have more control over the tip-to-tail underski pressure distribution. But how many of us are experts of that type? (b) Other skiers who are learning to ski with high edge angles and hip to snow may be seeking to get the underfoot pressure high enough to flex the boot as a goal. This is because feeling that tongue flex serves as a signal that high edge angles have been successfully reached. The boot flex is a side-effect that the skier's shin can feel and that the skier can seek to diagnose the success of attaining very high edge angles at the fall line. There are no mirrors at the side of the trail, so feeling the boot flex can provide the proof.

When any skier makes turns on bumpy-lumpy terrain:
When you are making turns on snow that presses back on your skis irregularly, since the surface of snow is irregular, you'll want your boots to flex. Why? In order to absorb the inconsistencies in the underfoot pressure due to the quirky jerky snow under your feet. The boot flex will serve as you shock absorbers. It will help you to ski more smoothly, rather than feeling like you are skiing on a washboard-like surface. Loosening the top buckle on the cuff, and using a Booster Strap as a replacement for the Power Strap that comes with the boot can aid the skier in setting up the boot to get it to flex in this type of situation.

When any skier is in over their heads and struggling to gain control:
When you are on snow that makes you feel uncertain about how to manage your turns, and you go into trial-and-error mode, doing this and then doing that in order to find what works best, it's good for your boots to absorb your jerky unrhythmic movements. You may want the boot to flex because the flexing serves to smooth out the performance of your skis. When the cuff flexes, it helps you avoid having to deal with a teeth-rattling ride, and if you over-react to something the flex will absorb your jerky movement so the skis don't jerk and throw you. If a skier finds themselves in this trial-and-error mode often, the purchasing a lower-flexing boot is warranted. Otherwise, a higher flexing boot is a better idea, because it delivers more control over the underski pressure distribution from tip to tail.

Anomaly - bruising on the shin at the top of the tongue:
When this happens, the issue is not the flex of the boot. It's the pressure distribution along the vertical length of the tongue. A bruise at the top of the tongue/cuff on the shin is called "shin-bang." It happens because the shin-tongue contact below the top edge of the tongue is insufficient to bear part of the load of pressure delivered to the shin. The fix is to tighten the lower cuff buckle and maybe loosen the top buckle, so that the pressure the shin feels as pressure builds is equal from bottom to top of the shin. The bruising at the top of the tongue should disappear. Another thing many skiers do is replace the inflexible velcro "power strap" at the top of the boot with an elastic "Booster Strap." The Booster is sold in three stiffnesses. Pick the stretchiest if you go slow on low pitch terrain mostly. Pick the stiffest if you are a racer. Everyone else pick the middle stiffness. A bootfitter at the ski shop where you buy the Booster Strap should install it for free on the spot. Wrap the Booster Strap around the liner, not around the shell where the velcro power strap was. Once the Booster is clamped tight, then buckle the two cuff buckles that hold the shell tight around the liner. Shin Bang should disappear.

Thank you for all of this!

So I do have a booster strap installed already. They have 3 elastics (I think will have to double check if 2 or 3). I that on tight. Then the top leg buckle was as loose as I could get it over that. I can’t recall now how I had the buckle on the lower leg, so perhaps I can get this tighter to distribute the contact as you mentioned. Could the tight booster strap and less tight lower buckle cause this lopsided contact and subsequently bruising/soreness? I actually have a little bump on my right shin today, which is quite shocking to me after relatively little skiing since it was short early season days.

I guess I’ve always thought that you need to be able to flex your boot to turn appropriately. Is this thought mixed with what I’m feeling messing with my head? Totally possible. When I’m back on snow I’ll really try and get out of my head on crushing the front of my boot.. and just pay attention to how my turns feel. It could be that I’m using the idea of not feeling like I can get my weight balanced forward enough with not being able to flex enough, and perhaps that sensation is not a direct result of the flex but of something else being off in my balance like forward lean etc. I’ll try not to jump to conclusions without gathering more data. My balance overall actually felt quite good, but I kept having the sensation of wanting to be able to get my hips positioned forward more than I could.

I really wish there were mirrors out there haha. I’m going to try and have someone take video next week of more terrain opens and allows for this to happen safely.

 

[MissySki]

I skied the Mach1 Pro for the 1 year it was a 115, and got it replaced with the 120 after bootfitting accident, and had them swap for the 105. They're definitely stiffer than similarly rated peers, and it's also one of the taller cuff options on the market for women. It's also marketed as a "piste" boot where the top of the flex is rather stiff. (If you happen to be coming from an Atomic, their Hawx line has a more dramatic ramp, where it feels softer at top of the flex and feels much stiffer the more it's flexed. Same for a 3-piece boot if you're coming from one of those). That softness at the top of the flex in an all-mountain boot helps for absorbing vibrations in inconsistent snow, getting leverage on the boot in low density pow, and landings for any drops and airs.

I don't love in store flex tests since plastics are affected by temperature, and some more than others. Alone, it doesn't take into consideration terrain and conditions someone likes to ski.

We rarely get light, low density snow in the PNW, but when it happens, I definitely feel the stiffness of the 105. I can't get enough leverage to shift my body weight or add more or less pressure to the tips of the ski. I'd also consider it feeling "locked in." The shape of the boot is constant and the shell doesn't have any give to respond to my body movement. I feel like it also forces me to shift weight into my heels and heel push to get *some* kind of steering and control. It's better in our usual hot pow conditions and best on groomers.

I'd hold off on any permanent changes at this point. I've noticed that sometimes it takes me a while to fully "make friends" with new boots. The stance is a little different and I hold back until I figure out their limits. I'd also play with heel lifts to adjust your stance. They're a pretty upright and flat boot so getting your weight a little more forward might help it feel right.

So you still find the 105 that stiff? That definitely makes me nervous of the 120 even more haha. Especially because I spend as much time as possible OFF piste. Though I am in the East, so we certainly get more than our fair share of hardpack groomer days.

My previous boots were Lange RS 110s. So also a piste oriented boot. It seems the boots that are low enough volume for my foot tend to fall into that category.. I do actually like the slightly higher cuff of the Technica for some reason.

 

[liquidfeet]

Thank you for all of this!

So I do have a booster strap installed already. They have 3 elastics (I think will have to double check if 2 or 3). I that on tight. Then the top leg buckle was as loose as I could get it over that. I can’t recall now how I had the buckle on the lower leg, so perhaps I can get this tighter to distribute the contact as you mentioned. Could the tight booster strap and less tight lower buckle cause this lopsided contact and subsequently bruising/soreness? I actually have a little bump on my right shin today, which is quite shocking to me after relatively little skiing since it was short early season days.

I guess I’ve always thought that you need to be able to flex your boot to turn appropriately. Is this thought mixed with what I’m feeling messing with my head? Totally possible. When I’m back on snow I’ll really try and get out of my head on crushing the front of my boot.. and just pay attention to how my turns feel. It could be that I’m using the idea of not feeling like I can get my weight balanced forward enough with not being able to flex enough, and perhaps that sensation is not a direct result of the flex but of something else being off in my balance like forward lean etc. I’ll try not to jump to conclusions without gathering more data. My balance overall actually felt quite good, but I kept having the sensation of wanting to be able to get my hips positioned forward more than I could.

I really wish there were mirrors out there haha. I’m going to try and have someone take video next week of more terrain opens and allows for this to happen safely.

Yes, to the bolded red above.

About the bolded blue above... I may repeat myself here, since this is hard to explain.

Maintaining tongue-shin contact is good. Being forward on the boot cuff and trying to flex it isn't what flexes the boot. The skier doesn't flex the boot. The snow flexes the boot. This sounds backwards, and it is if one is not used to thinking of the snow pressing back on an edged ski as it turns.

Having the snow push back on the ski's front half, its shovel, If you are maintaining tongue-shin contact and hovering the body's weight forward enough, then when the edged shovel turns, the snow up against it will be pressing back on it. The show pushes on the ski, and this push will lever the cuff backwards since the boot is firmly attached to the ski. The front half of the ski and the boot attached to the ski function as a lever when the snow pushes back. If the skier resists allowing the lower leg inside the cuff to be levered back (by positioning the mass of the body forward enough), then the boot cuff will flex. Assuming it is flexible enough. Does that make sense?

If the snow presses on the shovel of the ski hard enough, and the skier resists that pressure by hovering the body's weight forward enough, the shovel and the boot will both flex. This process requires that the skier maintain tongue-shin contact, and keep the body hovering forward enough over the ski.

Keep your shin on the tongue and feel the snow pushing back at your ski as you turn. Hover your body up and forward. See what happens.

 

[MissySki]

Yes, to the bolded red above.

About the bolded blue above... I may repeat myself here, since this is hard to explain.

Maintaining tongue-shin contact is good. Being forward on the boot cuff and trying to flex it isn't what flexes the boot. The skier doesn't flex the boot. The snow flexes the boot. This sounds backwards, and it is if one is not used to thinking of the snow pressing back on an edged ski as it turns.

Having the snow push back on the ski's front half, its shovel, If you are maintaining tongue-shin contact and hovering the body's weight forward enough, then when the edged shovel turns, the snow up against it will be pressing back on it. The show pushes on the ski, and this push will lever the cuff backwards since the boot is firmly attached to the ski. The front half of the ski and the boot attached to the ski function as a lever when the snow pushes back. If the skier resists allowing the lower leg inside the cuff to be levered back (by positioning the mass of the body forward enough), then the boot cuff will flex. Assuming it is flexible enough. Does that make sense?

If the snow presses on the shovel of the ski hard enough, and the skier resists that pressure by hovering the body's weight forward enough, the shovel and the boot will both flex. This process requires that the skier maintain tongue-shin contact, and keep the body hovering forward enough over the ski.

Keep your shin on the tongue and feel the snow pushing back at your ski as you turn. Hover your body up and forward. See what happens.

This is all very interesting, and like you guessed the opposite of the way I’ve usually thought about the forces taking place. So something to think on and try to wrap my head around when I’m on snow this weekend.

If I were to be unable to hover as forward as I feel is needed, is that when the idea of forward lean or ramp angle needs to come in? Or should I be able to get there regardless if I’m able to resist the forces from the snow enough?

 

[liquidfeet]

Your bootfitter, who has looked closely at your foot's range of motion, will be able to tell you whether you are able to hover as far forward as needed with the boots you are in - without adjustments to the bootboard's ramp angle and the forward lean of the cuff.