Help Needed: Help Understanding Correct Stance/Posture

[Gloria]

One more attempt to see if we're talking about the same thing regarding tuck: Jenn had me try to go for the same feeling by bracing for a punch to the gut. Your abdominals tense. Your pelvis tilts slightly, not a lot. It's subtle. It shouldn't be coming from glutes, but from the core.

I think that is more of a yoga type exercise. When the body is moving the pelvis is going to move to some degree fore and aft not necessarily held into one specific position or by isolating specific groups of muscles. So the abdominals etc should be firing in synchronized order with the glutes and other posterior muscles to keep things balanced out.

 

[volklgirl]

It seems like "tucking the pelvis" is using muscles for movements not directly associated with the forward motion of the skis, much like "pulling the inside foot back". If you're stacked beginning from the bottom of the foot, through the ankles and knees, it seems to be just extra, unneeded tension in the body.

Even using the word "stance" kind of bothers me as it's a very static term with no suggestion of forward motion, and skiing, is after all, a sport of movement, not poses or
"stances". I prefer words that denote movement and motion like stacking, flexing, shifting, driving, directing......

 

[Pequenita]

fwiw, there is a movement away from the phrase "tuck the tailbone" in yoga because, among other things, it's resulted in a bunch of people walking around with flat backs (see the first issue listed: https://yogainternational.com/article/view/ten-alignment-cues-yoga-teachers-need-to-stop-giving). The overall point and translation into skiing is that you want the core to be engaged and knees soft enough that if you hit inconsistent terrain underfoot, you are able to absorb in the legs and keep the upper body from collapsing/hinging.

 

[Gloria]

It seems like "tucking the pelvis" is using muscles for movements not directly associated with the forward motion of the skis, much like "pulling the inside foot back". If you're stacked beginning from the bottom of the foot, through the ankles and knees, it seems to be just extra, unneeded tension in the body.

Even using the word "stance" kind of bothers me as it's a very static term with no suggestion of forward motion, and skiing, is after all, a sport of movement, not poses or
"stances". I prefer words that denote movement and motion like stacking, flexing, shifting, driving, directing......

This is what I think too, if you start a movement in a good position you will finish in a good position but if you start in a bad one it's nearly impossible to change midway through.

 

[Gloria]

fwiw, there is a movement away from the phrase "tuck the tailbone" in yoga because, among other things, it's resulted in a bunch of people walking around with flat backs (see the first issue listed: https://yogainternational.com/article/view/ten-alignment-cues-yoga-teachers-need-to-stop-giving). The overall point and translation into skiing is that you want the core to be engaged and knees soft enough that if you hit inconsistent terrain underfoot, you are able to absorb in the legs and keep the upper body from collapsing/hinging.

Cool article. This is actually what spurs my interest in this thread. There was actually a fairly large survey done of gym goers where a staggering number of people either reported applying either flattened backs and or holding the pelvis in one position during both loaded and dynamic movements as well as confusion between hollowing and contracting the core for resistance training. There are a couple different studies going on trying to determine injury rates and effects of this.

 

[Abbi]

One more then I quit. According to my Pilates book proper alignment is a straight line from the front of the shoulders, down through the hips and the back of the knee. I tested my alignment by kneeling so I could see myself sideways in a full length mirror. Kneeling takes the legs out of the equation. I thought I looked pretty good but I thought I'd check. I took a yardstick and aligned it with the front of my shoulder (rolled back and down) and the back of my knee. The first thing I noticed was the yardstick wasn't vertical. I moved my torso back, no pelvic tilt in the back, until the yardstick was vertical. The movement caused my abs and glutes to engage without thinking about them. Right now this is the goal of my training, to get muscles to engage at the proper time, and it's exciting for me to see my body responding. I can see there is a lot of work to do with this.

I shoot for that alignment with my Pilates clients. That said, many don't have access to it initially, and some will never make it. I'm finding a lot more forward head (gee, wonder if looking down at the cell phone has something to do with it? I was leaving the parking lot today and just stopped dead so I could wait and see if the man reading his phone, in the middle of the driveway MIGHT notice there was a car in front of him!). There was a post today on a Pilates instructors forum that we are ending up with reverse curvatures from looking down at clients all the time. AUUUUGH).

The FMS screen is a great place to start. Gray Cook has been one of my favorite lecturers for some time. Keep up the good work, it's a process and a journey.

 

[VickiK]

This might be of interest, too, on back bends and swayed backs: https://gokhalemethod.com/blog/62807

 

[Skisailor]

Hm, perhaps we are miscommunicating. When I say that I 'tuck the pelvis' it is a super micro movement, more akin to an activation of the abdominals which helps bring the pelvis into a more neutral position, which results in the greatest ROM for me when doing the latest drill.

When my pelvis is neutral: I am able to create 'matching angles' because my hips are stacked over my ankles. I can create greater angles (skiing on steeper terrain) and still be balanced easily.

When my pelvis is anteriorly tilted: spine is extended (my boobs are sticking out), my weight actually shifts back of my heels as I get into a more 'aggressive' stance/increased angle because if I keep my hips over my ankles in this position I am overbalanced and it feels like I will fall on my face. As I increase my angles, my weight has to shift further and further back to compensate.

When my pelvis is posteriorly titled: spine is flexed (rounded shoulders), my weight also shifts back of my heels and my shoulders follow, I am unable to create increased angles/I am in a more upright stance.

I have full ROM in all of these positions, but thats because I am extremely flexible in the hips, but I would imagine that most people would have reduced femoral rom in the AT and PT positions.

So, despite these results, are you saying that I still shouldn't tuck my pelvis into a neutral position (or maybe I should say 'reposition my pelvis' because tuck seems like too strong of a word)? I'm not challenging any of this- you guys are the instructors, I'm just trying to get what you're saying to make sense in my body.

Hi Kimmy. Sorry it has taken so long to respond. Ursula just got back home from her trip and we discussed your post. I think we are both a bit confused about what you're saying.

When you say it's really a micro movement and just activation of the abdominals, do you mean you are just tensioning your core? Or do you actually shift the angle of your pelvis?
Do you then have to hold tension in your muscles to hold this position?

The angle of your pelvis - whatever it is - should not prevent you from achieving matching angles. It just changes how you need to flex your joints to match the angles to maintain weight over the balls of your feet.

I don't think we could follow or picture what you are describing in paragraphs 3 and 4 of your post. Wish you could posts pics - or your own video so we can get a visual.

Re: having full range of motion - I think the issue is not hip flexibility, but has to do with the sartorious muscle - longest muscle in the body. It cannot stretch to its full length when your back is vertical - which Ursula believes is the most typical outcome for anyone who tries to muscle the pelvis in a posterior direction from wherever it is when you're relaxed. So it's a relative thing for each person. Even if you have better femoral leg rotation ROM than most with a vertical back, you should have even MORE ROM than that, if you bend forward in your hip socket (because that allows the sartorious muscle to lengthen).

 

[Ursula]

Let me be a little more precise about that sartorius muscle. It is attached on one end at the anterior superior iliac spine (at the upper part of the pelvis) and on the other end is at the upper shaft of the tibia, or shinbone. It is the longest muscle in our body and we use it (contract the muscle) when we for instance sit with crossed legs. (that is also the reason the muscle is sometimes called the "tailor's muscle" because the tailors supposedly sat like that on their tables.
When we now stand up straight with an upright torso and we turn our leg in the hip socket inward (right leg with toes to the left) and our pelvis is vertical, your sartorius muscle gets stretched. When we are at about 30 degrees of turning, the muscles is stretched to the max. So that stretched muscles keeps us from turning our leg more. (This is when we use hip or body rotation to finish the turn.....) When we now flex forward in our hip socket, we are giving that muscle a little more "slack", now we can turn the same leg further inward.
In the video you can see it at about 11:19 minutes.
Hope this explanation helps.

 

[Skisailor]

Thanks Ursula!

 

[Kimmyt]

When you say it's really a micro movement and just activation of the abdominals, do you mean you are just tensioning your core? Or do you actually shift the angle of your pelvis?
Do you then have to hold tension in your muscles to hold this position?

No, I don't hold tension in my abdominals. As others have mentioned, skiing is not a static sport. When I find myself with too much lumbar curve and an anteriorly tilted pelvis I simply activate my abdominals slightly to get my pelvis in a better position and continue with my skiing. Because I struggle with this, I may have to do this a few times but it's really just a cue for my body to get in better skiing position.

The angle of your pelvis - whatever it is - should not prevent you from achieving matching angles. It just changes how you need to flex your joints to match the angles to maintain weight over the balls of your feet.

I'm not sure I actually agree with this. Perhaps this would be true if the pelvis and hips moved independantly of the rest of the body, but that is not what happens. When the hips are out of neutral, the rest of the skeleton/body adjusts. This is why we have certain postural patterns that go along with anteriorly tilted pelvis (forward head position, rounded shoulders etc). So, if someone has an anteriorly tilted pelvis while skiing, because of the compensations one has to make in other parts of the body due to the tilted pelvis, it can be much harder to balance while achieving matching angles.

I don't think we could follow or picture what you are describing in paragraphs 3 and 4 of your post. Wish you could posts pics - or your own video so we can get a visual.

I will try but I can't do it right now because I'm potty training my toddler and literally can only take my eyes off of him for moments at a time. For now, here is a basic image of the various tilts of the pelvis in standing position. Obviously, in an athletic stance these will look different however you will see the same muscular patterns.

Notice how when anteriorly tilted, the abdominal area is thrown forward and the head thrust forward. Because of the compensations in the upper back, when one is in an athletic stance like skiing, the weight will shift backwards (backseat) to counterbalance the position of the rest of the spine.

Re: having full range of motion - I think the issue is not hip flexibility, but has to do with the sartorious muscle - longest muscle in the body. It cannot stretch to its full length when your back is vertical - which Ursula believes is the most typical outcome for anyone who tries to muscle the pelvis in a posterior direction from wherever it is when you're relaxed. So it's a relative thing for each person. Even if you have better femoral leg rotation ROM than most with a vertical back, you should have even MORE ROM than that, if you bend forward in your hip socket (because that allows the sartorious muscle to lengthen).

One thing- when you say 'back is vertical' I am going to assume you are meaning posterior tilt to the pelvis (a severe tucking of the pelvis under). In this position, hip flexors including sartorius are stretched/lengthened- because sartorius attaches to the ASIS (what we think of as our 'hip bones) which moves posteriorly and pulls the sartorius into a stretch. If the pelvis is anteriorly tilted, ASIS moves forward and then sartorius and friends (because sartorius is not the only hip flexor and while it is the longest it is by no means the biggest if we are considering diameter) become shortened/tight. In both of these positions, the hip flexors have reduced ability to stretch and activate. Over time with these postural patterns, the muscles actually lose the ability to stretch and activate effectively. It is only when the pelvis is in a neutral position that the muscles can function as they are intended.

Basically, my main point is that you can't ignore pelvic tilt when considering stance because when the pelvis is shifted out of neutral (anterior or posterior), 1) the muscles do not work to full efficiency and 2) the skeleton is positioned in such a way that full rom (which is a function of the muscles ability to move as they are intended) is impossible or at the very least hard to achieve. Of course, it's very true that if a person struggles with these issues that corrective exercise out of skiing lessons is probably more beneficial, but it's worth bringing their attention to it because many people are unaware of pelvic tilt.

 

[Powgirl]

Ursula (and Laura)...

Just wanted you know that I spent some time last week looking at and practicing my angles and finding that 'spot' where my thighs are in a relaxed state.

I skied my bum off yesterday and worked on everything you covered, including the weight vs pressuring. I was dialed into the relaxed thigh position, adjusting, etc.

I had so, so much fun and tackled some steep, ungroomed blues with my new knowledge. I was also on my new K2s, which I love...it was one of the best days I've ever had! My SO really noticed the difference in my skiing, too.

Thank you again for your video...Its incredibly helpful!

 

[bounceswoosh]

I don't have the anatomical background that Kim does, but these two quotes resonate for me:

When I find myself with too much lumbar curve and an anteriorly tilted pelvis I simply activate my abdominals slightly to get my pelvis in a better position and continue with my skiing. Because I struggle with this, I may have to do this a few times but it's really just a cue for my body to get in better skiing position.

Perhaps this would be true if the pelvis and hips moved independantly of the rest of the body, but that is not what happens.

 

[Gloria]

[QUOTE="Kimmyt, post: 332822, member: 89"



I'm not sure I actually agree with this. Perhaps this would be true if the pelvis and hips moved independantly of the rest of the body, but that is not what happens. When the hips are out of neutral, the rest of the skeleton/body adjusts. This is why we have certain postural patterns that go along with anteriorly tilted pelvis (forward head position, rounded shoulders etc). So, if someone has an anteriorly tilted pelvis while skiing, because of the compensations one has to make in other parts of the body due to the tilted pelvis, it can be much harder to balance while achieving matching angles.

Basically, my main point is that you can't ignore pelvic tilt when considering stance because when the pelvis is shifted out of neutral (anterior or posterior), 1) the muscles do not work to full efficiency and 2) the skeleton is positioned in such a way that full rom (which is a function of the muscles ability to move as they are intended) is impossible or at the very least hard to achieve. Of course, it's very true that if a person struggles with these issues that corrective exercise out of skiing lessons is probably more beneficial, but it's worth bringing their attention to it because many people are unaware of pelvic tilt.[/QUOTE]

"Reactive Lumbo-Pelvic Control Program
One of the most common postural dysfunctions seen is the anterior tilted pelvis associated with an increased lordosis. A list of compensations and adaptations such as thoracic kyphosis, hyper-extending knees, hamstring over activity, abdominal insufficiency, mechanical low back pain, etc. are often then attributed to the central postural dysfunction of the pelvic tilt.

However, it is probably quite unfair to blame the pelvis for this “chain” of dysfunction as its position is generally dictated by the length, tension and activity of the structures that surround it. It is merely being pulled into this shape, and its position can be a structural “symptom” of the muscle imbalances, fascial shortening and adaptations that are present.

" Common techniques used in reactive motor training are to position the body or use resistance forces that, if overcome automatically, recruit our target muscle groups and facilitate postural positional change... in this case, a stable pelvis with a more neutral/level tilt"
"Lower Extremity Injury Prevention"
References:

1. Clark, Mike. Essentials of Integrated Training Series. 2001-2003
2. Cook, Gray. Functional Movement Screening Exercise Progressions. 2005
3. Cook, Gray. Athletic Body in Balance. Human Kinetics, 2003
4. Norris, C. Back Stability. Human Kinetics, 2000
5. Page, Phil. The Janda Approach to Musculoskeletal Pain.

The matching angles is also called figure-4 position in corrective exercise or functional movement training in which the verbatim objective is: " To promote optimal alignment between the trunk and tibia, as well as optimal position of the spine". This position helps to neutralize the spine by optimizing gluteal activity and inhibiting quad dominance. The problem with moving into the backseat from this position is more than likely : using the knees instead of hips to achieve the position which reverts back to quad dominance, lack of dorsi -flexion or locking the ankle into a fixed position as indicated in the video. The importance of this being, the ankle and glutes are bed partners - when the ankle is locked the glute rolls over and goes to sleep - when the ankle moves back and forth the glutes are turned on. Sleeping glute = quad dominance, back seat, anterior pelvic tilt. Turned on glute = neutral spine, stable position. This guy is doing a front squat so his shift is somewhat different but the point remains the same.

 

[Kimmyt]

@Gloria are you saying that the stance needs to originate from the ankles? I'm not sure I'm understanding the point you are trying to make...

 

[heather matthews]

I was taught that it all starts at the ball of your foot and then works its way up from there in a fluid rather relaxed way.

 

[Gloria]

@Gloria are you saying that the stance needs to originate from the ankles? I'm not sure I'm understanding the point you are trying to make...

First the initial movement should be in the hips and knees should flex passively - this activates the glute over the quad. If you bend first at the knees and then try to arrange the ankle and upper body - the quad fires and the glute is lax. So when it comes to anterior pelvic tilt - quad dominance is generally a condition you see in combination with APT active movement. So if you can iniate correctly and start using the glute in any movement you will be strengthening the muscles that are underactive and will see some natural correction. And probably the safest form of correction in an activity like this.
Secondly the ankles have been shown to have a direct impact on glute firing. When someone sprains an ankle for instance, the corresponding glute will show lowered activity as well. People with dorsiflexion issues have corresponding glute issues and so forth. Along with that pattern the body in connected by "anatomy trains" or mysofascial slings. These slings hold our bodies together and send messages to the central nervous system based on lengths and tensions throughout that cause the right muscles to fire at the right time, as much as we like to think we are in control, this is much more powerful than we are. So in a ground force sport like skiing, there is a sling that starts underneath the foot which sets the patterns. So if you lock your ankles, there is no change in length or tension, if you are active in the ankle these changes in tension optimize the cores ability to fire correspondingly. When there is no change the body must do what some call tension hunting - which can cause misalignment to occur. So it's important to stay active in the ankle, we have talked alot about pelvic alignment in one plane, but the pelvis is going to move in all planes while skiing, weight changes, terrain, turning are all going to require different firing patterns in the core so the more information you can provide by keeping the ankles moving the better the core will respond and you shouldn't have to think about it. We are hard wired for this and it's very very cool to think, and talk about.

Does that help? I could write a book, but trying to not put anyone to sleep.

 

[Little Lightning]

First the initial movement should be in the hips and knees should flex passively - this activates the glute over the quad. If you bend first at the knees and then try to arrange the ankle and upper body - the quad fires and the glute is lax. So when it comes to anterior pelvic tilt - quad dominance is generally a condition you see in combination with APT active movement. So if you can iniate correctly and start using the glute in any movement you will be strengthening the muscles that are underactive and will see some natural correction. And probably the safest form of correction in an activity like this.
Secondly the ankles have been shown to have a direct impact on glute firing. When someone sprains an ankle for instance, the corresponding glute will show lowered activity as well. People with dorsiflexion issues have corresponding glute issues and so forth. Along with that pattern the body in connected by "anatomy trains" or mysofascial slings. These slings hold our bodies together and send messages to the central nervous system based on lengths and tensions throughout that cause the right muscles to fire at the right time, as much as we like to think we are in control, this is much more powerful than we are. So in a ground force sport like skiing, there is a sling that starts underneath the foot which sets the patterns. So if you lock your ankles, there is no change in length or tension, if you are active in the ankle these changes in tension optimize the cores ability to fire correspondingly. When there is no change the body must do what some call tension hunting - which can cause misalignment to occur. So it's important to stay active in the ankle, we have talked alot about pelvic alignment in one plane, but the pelvis is going to move in all planes while skiing, weight changes, terrain, turning are all going to require different firing patterns in the core so the more information you can provide by keeping the ankles moving the better the core will respond and you shouldn't have to think about it. We are hard wired for this and it's very very cool to think, and talk about.

Does that help? I could write a book, but trying to not put anyone to sleep.

Thank you for this explanation. When I skied a couple of weeks ago I was confused with what I should do with my hips. Move hips 1st or knees 1st? I alternated between hip hinging and bending at the waist and squatting. Today when I started a run I thought of moving my hips 1st. I could feel my core muscles engaging. At times the tendon on the outside of my ankle moved. I take that as a reminder I've lost my alignment. Tonight my left side is talking to me from the side of my hip, glutes down to the ankle. Looks like I'll be doing some stretching tonight.

 

[Ursula]

For me personally it is relatively easy. I flex in my hips so my shoulders are over my toes (not the "nose over the toes"). From then on the flexion and extension comes from my ankles. I NEVER think about using my knees to make the moves. They just "react" to what needs to happen to keep my weight forward.

 

[heather matthews]

I could never be nose over toes.My nose is so big that if I did do that then I'd be so far in the back seat that I would be in the boot!