Center of Mass is NOT a body part nor in a fixed location!

[Skisailor]

Why? It may not be preferred, but if that's the only body movement that a person can make (ankles are rigid, can't flex from the hip) to get weight over the balls of the feet - it will be helpful to them. It only takes moving the shoulders forward a few inches. No need to crouch.

 

[bounceswoosh]

Why? It may not be preferred, but if that's the only body movement that a person can make (ankles are rigid, can't flex from the hip) to get weight over the balls of the feet - it will be helpful to them. It only takes moving the shoulders forward a few inches. No need to crouch.

I'm just trying to picture what would prevent someone from being able to flex at the hip, unless they are simply unable to distinguish the movement pattern. To me that's an issue of education, not adaptation. What am I missing?

I'm not sure why rigid ankles would prevent hip flexion, either. I can't picture the scenario where bending at the waist would work better with rigid ankles than hip flexion would.

When I think of flexing at the waist, the immediate, visceral sensation I get is of doing this in big bumps and "breaking" forward because I didn't have good form, and my already-bent waist allowed my upper body to flop forward like a rag doll. I also worry that bending at the waist has the same risks in skiing that it does in lifting things off the ground - it puts strain on the back, especially if you're in variable terrain when you get thrown around.

I can see bending at the waist having a role in adaptive skiing, and maybe you could argue that all of us are on some spectrum of adaptive skiing because we all have physical limitations .... but I have trouble picturing these being good ideas on anything but mellow groomers.

I could be wrong, but I've only ever heard dire warnings about bending at the waist, and everything I've experienced agrees with that.

 

[Abbi]

Wait, can I change my answer? Now that I think about it, the ahah moment probably came from kettlebell swings, not yoga!

Of course! No quizzes here! I don't care how you get the answer, as long as it works for you. The one thing I'm sure of after teaching movement is not all cues work for all clients.

 

[Abbi]

Why? It may not be preferred, but if that's the only body movement that a person can make (ankles are rigid, can't flex from the hip) to get weight over the balls of the feet - it will be helpful to them. It only takes moving the shoulders forward a few inches. No need to crouch.

I like a hip hinge better. Bending at the waist loses the core connection and support needed. I'm going back to the prep for a kettlebell swing on that. Stand tall, place fingers in hip fold at top of leg (I'm not going to get more anatomical, I'd have to look stuff up!) and push into them and extend the backside out while maintaining a lift/support through the abs and back. The knees bend, the toes remain more or less over but not in front of the toes. Very stable position. Not as easy to maintain when moving on skis, but not a bad basis.

 

[Skisailor]

I'm just trying to picture what would prevent someone from being able to flex at the hip, unless they are simply unable to distinguish the movement pattern. To me that's an issue of education, not adaptation. What am I missing?

I'm not sure why rigid ankles would prevent hip flexion, either. I can't picture the scenario where bending at the waist would work better with rigid ankles than hip flexion would.

When I think of flexing at the waist, the immediate, visceral sensation I get is of doing this in big bumps and "breaking" forward because I didn't have good form, and my already-bent waist allowed my upper body to flop forward like a rag doll. I also worry that bending at the waist has the same risks in skiing that it does in lifting things off the ground - it puts strain on the back, especially if you're in variable terrain when you get thrown around.

I can see bending at the waist having a role in adaptive skiing, and maybe you could argue that all of us are on some spectrum of adaptive skiing because we all have physical limitations .... but I have trouble picturing these being good ideas on anything but mellow groomers.

I could be wrong, but I've only ever heard dire warnings about bending at the waist, and everything I've experienced agrees with that.

I agree. I only included these things in response to Abbi and Little Lightning, who suggested trouble with ankle flexion and past trouble with hip flexion, to make clear that these kinds of possible limitations need not defeat the goal of being "forward".

 

[Little Lightning]

Since I've been a "waist bender" all my life, even with picking things off the floor I'll try to explain what happens. When I bend from the waist my hips push back and my shoulders align around the middle of my thighs. The only way I can get my shoulders over my toes, no matter how much I bend my ankles, is to move my upper body forward and down. But then I'm in an extreme, crunched position with the upper body. My legs can't move freely. If I hinge from the hips I'm free to move my upper and lower body independently. This is what my trainer meant when he said I have to learn to disassociate my legs from my torso.

However, this did not come easily to me. My first attempts at toe touching were very strange. It felt like my head was "very far away from my legs". I had to practice the movement every time I bent over. For awhile I was in a state of confusion with my body. Every movement was confusing. Then I saw the cue, " hips move 1st, then upper body". I use that cue when I ski.

Like Bounceswoosh and Abbi are saying hip hinging is a more stable position, takes the stress off the lower back and allows the legs to move freely. However, it's easy to revert back to bending at the waist while skiing in more difficult conditions.

The hip hinge is a basic human movement. How many kids do you know that don't hip hinge? Watch them on skis. I haven't seen one that doesn't hinge at the hips. That"s why it was the 1st thing my trainer taught me. It's an important move for deadlifting, kettle bell swings, everything he has me do. It's also an import movement for life. Unfortunately, this is often over looked by health professionals. I can't tell you how many times I've asked my PT's why my low back hurts and have been told "I don't know" and yet they didn't check my toe touch.

Now when someone mentions "stack your joints, or athletic stance", I just smile and think to myself, I know what they're talking about.

 

[Gloria]

Me as well. I've tried skiing without heel lifts and I just can't. It's awful. As a corollary, though, I need a 2x6 under my heels when doing squats and dead lifts, also.

Oddly, though, I can fold forward and put palms on the floor with no problem.

The board under the heels is an old school bodybuilding tool to increase quad activation for aesthetic purposes. Alot of knees were fried back in Arnold's day due to the degree of forward knee translation caused by the extreme height. Gray Cook does not advocate the use of heel lifts and would instead say to fix the problem before adding weight. On the converse there are multiple professional lifters and coaches who advocate lifting shoes for anthropometrically challenged lifters and some advocate for all. In regards to squatting. A weightlifting shoe might be a better option for you because it's not as high and you would have full foot contact and better stability. The deadlift is more controversial because many find that the higher the heel the further the shoulder displacement over the bar. A study on this found the breaking point to be when the heel was raised over 1.75 inches, the lifter could no longer maintain appropriate bar position. You can find weightlifting shoes with a variety of heights an Olympic shoe can be up to 1.25" most commonly .75 and down from there. I have short torso, long femur and .8mm heel is perfect for me for squats and dead lifts. My oly shoe is .65. You could try putting plates of different thicknesses under your heels and see which height works best, but unless you are dropping under really heavy snatches and can't keep an upright torso in that position 2" is probably doing more harm than good.

 

[bounceswoosh]

I use lifting shoes for squats, but not for deadlifts. I forget how much lift they have.

 

[Abbi]

Well this all has gotten very interesting, especially since I'm being analyzed on one still shot! No worries, no matters. I'm having much fun following the fitness/lifting/functional movement/Gray Cook points through here.

I also fall back on knowing some things just work for people. I used to ski Cannon Mountain. There were all kinds of stories about how Bode Miller was told he'd never be any good based on his style and position. He did OK!

 

[bounceswoosh]

@Abbi I didn't realize/remember a photo ... ! I was just talking in generalities.

 

[Abbi]

@Abbi I didn't realize/remember a photo ... ! I was just talking in generalities.

Can't remember who, but there was a mention that it didn't look as though I had sufficient ankle flexion WAAAAY back in this thread. Not a problem! With all the years I've been analyzing other people's movement, I can take it. God knows the Pilates teachers I work with and I all need our practice observed and tweaked from time to time.

 

[bounceswoosh]

Can't remember who, but there was a mention that it didn't look as though I had sufficient ankle flexion WAAAAY back in this thread. Not a problem! With all the years I've been analyzing other people's movement, I can take it. God knows the Pilates teachers I work with and I all need our practice observed and tweaked from time to time.

I was texting with one of my fellow students from the Saturday class, and she told me she could in fact see how well my knees are bending now vs before. Apparently it is not subtle. And of course that's not really about the knees, it's about the ankle flexion I'm getting that propagates into the knees. So if you do have overly vertical ankles, it may be a matter of the right cue. (Or it may be anatomy. Hard to tell!)

 

[Skisailor]

Can't remember who, but there was a mention that it didn't look as though I had sufficient ankle flexion WAAAAY back in this thread. Not a problem! With all the years I've been analyzing other people's movement, I can take it. God knows the Pilates teachers I work with and I all need our practice observed and tweaked from time to time.

That was me! I did say it's just a snapshot! And I thought you requested cues for getting forward. So I thought I was just answering your request using the information at hand.

 

[Abbi]

That was me! I did say it's just a snapshot! And I thought you requested cues for getting forward. So I thought I was just answering your request using the information at hand.

I figured I'd switch my avatar to my sailboat and just ski! LOL!! It goes pretty well until I get tired and then the old 'crutches' (aka bad habits) take over! Practice, practice, practice!

 

[newboots]

I figured I'd switch my avatar to my sailboat and just ski! LOL!! It goes pretty well until I get tired and then the old 'crutches' (aka bad habits) take over! Practice, practice, practice!

Beautiful photo of your boat and the bluebird sailing day!

 

[Gloria]

I use lifting shoes for squats, but not for deadlifts. I forget how much lift they have.

Super common. I have a neurotic foot thing and I don't like squatting in my lifting shoes because they are too slick. I have a shoe quiver. I usually squat in my daily driver.