Are our skis too fat?

[heather matthews]

And for some significant percentage of skiers, these skis seem to provide an enjoyable enough experience that they have lost interest in learning the age-old basic skills of their chosen sport. Which would be fine, except that those of us who share the slopes with them feel forced to ski with rabbits feet lucky charms in our pockets whenever we hit the mountain![/QUOTE]

There are sadly,plenty of skiers and boarders who have ok technique but terrible,terrible manners and these people are just as dangerous.It's been said elsewhere on other threads but many of these people are young and male. They grow up in a culture of me first,instant gratification and are surrounded by go pro/you tube segments extolling the virtues of extremeness. At home we refer to them as bogans.I see it all the time-cutting up other skiers/riders,hitting rollovers at speed and blind,treating other mountain users as slalom poles and skiing way too close so that even though they are in control if anything happens then they cant do anything.On the other hand I've stood at the top of middle basin at Craigieburn on a midweek powder day with a couple of lovely polite young men who were just as excited as I was about dropping in to a fresh slope and we all had a blast.Thats the culture there.Guess I'm trying to say that good technique is one thing but it needs to come with a good attitude and a healthy respect for our fellow skiers and for the mountains we are privileged to play in.(and maybe bad technique with a bad attitude is a recipe for disaster)

 

[pinto]

There are sadly,plenty of skiers and boarders who have ok technique but terrible,terrible manners and these people are just as dangerous. .... I'm trying to say that good technique is one thing but it needs to come with a good attitude and a healthy respect for our fellow skiers and for the mountains we are privileged to play in.(and maybe bad technique with a bad attitude is a recipe for disaster)

Yep. I understand the viewpoint that modern skis do make it easier for any and everyone to access terrain, but in the end it doesn't matter. It's all about choices. Modern skis don't force people to ski too fast or out of control. I've been buzzed by race kids with beautiful technique and skinny skis.

It's like saying that modern automobiles are to blame for highway accidents. Sure, the potential is there for unskilled drivers to go way too fast and be too reckless, but don't blame the vehicle. Blame the operator.

 

[Skisailor]

It's true of course that the equipment itself does not force people into bad decisions and bad skiing habits. But I do believe that certain recent aspects of ski design (especially excessive width and/or rocker) seem to be facilitating bad choices for more and more skiers. And that affects my own skiing experience, so it matters enough to me to influence my opinion about it

 

[nopoleskier]

Totally Agree w/Katy.. "I will always stand by technique over technology! Good technique allows skiers to ski on anything in any condition." Absolutely!

 

[KatyPerrey]

@pinto
I don't accept that analogy. In your scenario, it's more like pretending all the new rage is a sports car designed without power steering and with bald tires for doing off road doughnuts and then allowing those cars to be driven on the roads by people who are not required to learn how to drive or to get a license.

AGAIN TECHNIQUE OVER TECHNOLOGY!!

 

[KatyPerrey]

I'll add that I agree that we have choices but IMO most of the general publics choices are not educated choices!!

 

[Fluffy Kitty]

It's like saying that modern automobiles are to blame for highway accidents. Sure, the potential is there for unskilled drivers to go way too fast and be too reckless, but don't blame the vehicle. Blame the operator.

@pinto
I don't accept that analogy. In your scenario, it's more like pretending all the new rage is a sports car designed without power steering and with bald tires for doing off road doughnuts and then allowing those cars to be driven on the roads by people who are not required to learn how to drive or to get a license.

AGAIN TECHNIQUE OVER TECHNOLOGY!!

So, it seems we are talking about a few different scenarios. How about my snow tires analogy? I hope I represented all the positions. I think all are right, and each should be a consideration in all cases.

1) "Technique over technology" scenario: There are techniques for safe driving in the snow that is the same regardless of the tires you have. If you know how to drive in the snow on regular tires, you know how to drive well on snow tires; if you don't know how to drive on regular tires, you don't know how to drive on snow tires. You can't give snow tires to bad drivers and expect them to drive well; if anything, they'll do worse, because they don't understand how traction works, and develop bad habits that will get them into trouble.

2) "Technology is great" scenario: There are certain conditions that just cannot be driven in well without 4x4 and snow tires. Some people have great technique that does make it possible, but what about the rest of us? More people are enjoying snow-driving since snow tires came along, because it's easier to learn how to drive well in the snow. In fact, I would love to have tires that let anyone go anywhere at any speed; those who are better drivers will then have even more fun, too!

3) "Fun is fun" scenario: I just want to be able to get from point A to point B. I'd rather it be a pleasant, easy trip, so I'll get snow tires and take snow-driving lessons, but I don't mind it being a little dicey at times as long as I make it. I won't sweat it if I screw up a little once in a while. Or I'll just drive slowly; that's nice, too. Or I just won't go if it's too gnarly; I have other things I enjoy. Well, I do also enjoy getting better at driving... I'll go take some more lessons and practice more, too. And look into better tires. Driving is fun; technique is fun; and so is shopping!

4) "Stupid is stupid" scenario: Some people will drive irresponsibly regardless of the tires they have and the techniques they know. Better snow tires just allows them to be even more irresponsible, out of false pride and because they can get away with it more. Some of them don't know how to drive on snow, period, and drive even worse on snow tires, and they don't care! Even good technique makes them do things that scare the life out of others and let them be a menace. Did you see the way they drive around student drivers? Yeesh.

5) "Betty Crocker" scenario (the parents in the first article): The thing is, some people will drive at 20mph in the snow regardless of the tires they have, with or without lessons. You give them snow tires, and they'll just do it more in more places. They are getting to where they want to go, and seem to be having a fine time, but they drive me nuts! They are, in fact, creating a new hazard, by making the rest of us get around them on narrow roads. Do they have to slam on the brakes at every curve? That's dangerous, too!

 

[Fluffy Kitty]

One more:

6) "Evil corporation" scenario (I see this argument on EpicSki a lot): I can't believe that tire sales person sold my parents a pair of snow racing tires and told them to sign up for snow racing! Thank goodness they drove at 20mph on the race tracks. In fact, why are all the tire companies aggressively marketing snow racing tires? It's a stupid fad, and they are encouraging bad driving just to make money. I'll be glad when they go back to focusing on sensible snow tires, but, that's just it: they want us to all buy racing tires, and then all buy sensible tires, and then some other fad will come along. We're gonna end up with garages full of tires we don't need. Snow racing tires are great, I love them, but they are for racers who are racing on race tracks!!!

I have to admit, there are days when I abide by all of these principles, but there are many days when I violate more than one of them, driving or skiing.

 

[pinto]

@pinto
I don't accept that analogy. In your scenario, it's more like pretending all the new rage is a sports car designed without power steering and with bald tires for doing off road doughnuts and then allowing those cars to be driven on the roads by people who are not required to learn how to drive or to get a license.

AGAIN TECHNIQUE OVER TECHNOLOGY!!

First, I do agree with technique over technology; I don't dispute that ... just to be clear. So, your analogy brings regulation into things -- are you saying that a license should be required to buy fat skis?

This is not really my argument -- @Fluffy Kitty is right, there are different things going on here. What I see you arguing against is careless skiers who don't know what they are doing and in doing so, endanger others. We all agree on that. There is nothing wrong with fat skis in the hands of (on the feet of) people who use them either skillfully or carefully. I've seen bro-dudes at Alta absolutely laying it over on 125 skis, on hard pack (well, Alta hard pack). The issue isn't the skis, it's a subset of their users. Just like people who choose to use inappropriate vehicles on public roads and endanger others. Or good skiers who have little situational awareness, even if they are on the proper ski for the terrain and their ability. I steer clear of them, too.

The good thing is, skis are trending back narrower. People are realizing that most of their skiing really is more fun on a more appropriate width. Even Armada has come out with some narrower, 80-something piste skis ... and they are a hoot!

 

[Fluffy Kitty]

The good thing is, skis are trending back narrower.

For sure! (Those dastardly evil corporations...)

Another one... Not a gender stereotype, per se, since this goes through my mind all the time, and I know many guys who do essentially the same thing in their shopoholic modes... not necessarily about color, but, still. There is a lot of discussion about this in photography forums, for instance, where men are often accused of choosing equipment for their "professional" look alone, and will say derisive things about cameras that are not solid black. Conversely, I've been accused of dressing like a camera... a professional one, of course! (Although I've switched to an obviously non-professional camera...)

7) "Looks are everything" scenario: OMG, I totally had to get these snow racing tires because they are the most gorgeous shade of teal! I couldn't find anything like that in non-racing tires. They go perfectly with the car, and all my outfits... except that it will clash with my teal coat, so I'll have to get a new one. I was thinking about taking up racing, anyway; I mean, I'm not there, yet, but these will help me get there, right? I'm not being shallow! I did research all the tires, and I couldn't decide between these three models; it's just that these were the prettiest. They are still the right tires for me. Yeah. The racing-tire look is gonna look good on the road, and, if I can learn to properly drive like I'm a snow racer, I'll look so good!

[Edit: The 2017 Rossi Super 7 HD W! They will go with all my outfits!
https://www.powder7.com/ski-blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Rossignol-SIA-16-9.jpg ]

 

[bounceswoosh]

Just had a thought: I wonder if this is kind of (to throw another flamewar topic into the fire) like how I see dog breed bans. Currently pit bulls are doggies non grata. In the past it's been rottweilers, German shepherds, and boxers. The common denominator in all of these are dog owners who want a vicious beast to send a signal about the human's personality. The dogs are just collateral damage.

Anyway, I wonder if we have the cause and effect turned around. I wonder if people who are prone to choosing over their head terrain and being "too good" for ski lessons are also the people who are currently attracted to fat skis, because that's what they see the freestyle and big mountain pros skiing.

I mean, back in the day there were plenty of people on skis too long for them because "expert skiers have long skis." As a teen, I totally bought into this, convinced myself I was better than I was, and was on skis way too long and stiff for my abilities. Fortunately I was too timid to take them onto extreme terrain.

Many, many lessons with truly excellent - and some extreme - skiers have given me a much better perspective of what is possible on skis, and what constitutes good skiing vs. survival skiing. And it's still possible to get in trouble, i.e. what I got myself into that led to the ACL tear. That was on a blue, actually ...

bogans

Is there an etymology for this name?

I've been buzzed by race kids with beautiful technique and skinny skis.

I've seen race coaches tell their kids to go ski across the slope at Loveland early season when two runs were open, kids crossing without looking uphill, JEEBUS. Common denominator there are kids, of course - the most self-involved people of all. But the coach should have given better instructions and been on their asses about it.

 

[Olesya Chornoguz]

Here are my 2 cents. First of all I agree that technique comes first and solid technique allows for safer skiing in any situation, any snow condition. But I also think that there is such a thing like the appropriate ski for the condition, within reason of course. I do very much enjoy having 100+ mm wide ski when I ski on a powder day out West. I would never ski any terrain beyond my ability though, fat ski or no fat skis. I am a L7 out of 9, low advanced (as told by L3 PSIA examiner) skier and I started skiing easy ungroomed blacks out West (UT, CO) last season and generally did ok with an occasional freak-out and having to side slip or do falling leaf very slowly and in control I should add. For those of you who know me know that I am very self-conscious on my skiing and take a lot of lessons and very conscientious about improving my technique.

Powder is difficult to master to ski for someone who lives in mid-Atlantic and gets to ski powder 1x or 2x a season and fat skis make it easier. So I think it's ok for me to have my fat skis and ski ungroomed blues or easy blacks on a powder day out west. I always ski in control and far away from any other skier. If I hear someone close behind me I will stop and let them go first. I would NEVER attempt to ski a chute or double black terrain out West even if the ski conditions were amazing and I had fat skis. I know that terrain is way beyond my ability. I would also be terrified to ski it. I used to think that I am quite a chicken when it comes to skiing, but maybe that fear is good, well maybe mostly good. Sometimes it is irrational for sure, but that is a different topic entirely.

With that said I realize that there are skiers that get a false sense of confidence from fat skis and those are the skiers that are a source of danger on the slopes and I understand that it must be frustrating for expert skiers seeing out of control skier on expert terrain that would have never attempted to ski it if not for fat skis. I don't know what the solution to that, other than maybe encouraging more adults to take lessons and learn the proper technique - it makes skiing a lot less tiring and a lot more fun.

 

[Olesya Chornoguz]

I should add that I only ski fat skis on a powder day. That is it. I have an all mountain 86 mm that I ski in everything else. I have considered getting even skinnier skis to learn some of the finer ski skills, but I probably won't be able to add another ski to the quiver for a while since I need to replace my fat skis.

 

[Fluffy Kitty]

I don't know what the solution to that, other than maybe encouraging more adults to take lessons and learn the proper technique - it makes skiing a lot less tiring and a lot more fun.

How about if the manufacturers held low-cost clinics with free demo skis, or offered free classes for everyone who has purchased them? People will then get a better sense of what they can handle before plunking down hundreds of dollars, or make the best of what they've bought. There will be more sales as a result, so win-win for everyone! This will be great for local-ish manufacturers; more productive than brewfests and such that they keep having. Instructors at a resort can just offer this, too, to promote a better culture and for everyone's safety. And, when ski patrol takes away someone's passes, they could require the free class before they get it back. There could be instructors roaming the mountains, spotting the dangerous hot-shots with bad technique and serious quad burns, and giving them coupons for free workshops, or offering to give them tips on the spot. (They will have to carry waiver forms. ) I've had ski patrollers and ambassadors give me tips, and they were immensely helpful.

They can use this kind of workshop to increase attendance during slow weeks, getting more people to come on unexpected weekday powder days; "Powder is here! Come for free powder demos and clinic!" I'd go for that. I often have just one client on big powder days, and I stare wistfully at the webcams all day long; if there is a free clinic, I'd just cancel and go! (Don't tell my licensing board! Well... I guess I wouldn't really just cancel on a client to go skiing, but I'd still want to do it.)

The possibilities...

 

[bounceswoosh]

There could be instructors roaming the mountains, spotting the dangerous hot-shots with bad technique and serious quad burns, and giving them coupons for free workshops, or offering to give them tips on the spot.

Breck employees get one free lesson a month. It's disheartening how many I've chatted with who've said they've never bothered.

 

[Pequenita]

I think a lot of people get caught up in how manufacturers and retailers have labeled skis (and boots for that matter). Everyone likes having their ego massaged, so you wind up on an expert ski and think that you belong on expert runs.

 

[vanhoskier]

No animosity from me. Sorry you feel that way or if anyone else feels that way. I would just like to be able to post my opinion in any and all threads like everyone else!! That never seems to happen!!

I love hearing your opinions, Katy. You're one of the best instructors (and skiers) I've ever skied with. I always learned a lot from you because you are straightforward in your feedback! And you've also done so in ways that made me laugh, so the experience was also fun! Work hard and learn to laugh at yourself when necessary....perfect combination for ultimate learning. :-)

 

[Fluffy Kitty]

I should add that I only ski fat skis on a powder day.

I'm sticking to a one-ski quiver with my 88mm skis, but when time comes to replace them I might consider something closer to 100mm. I'm following @KatyPerrey's principle, making sure that I can handle anything on the 88s before that time comes, but it does seem that 1) the more days I ski, the more days call for wider skis, and 2) I'm pretty confident I can (learn to) carve with 100s on hardpack or even ice. It will all depend on which option will be easier on my knees and hip joints overall, between aging and climate change, and how well my favorite sales person massages my ego.

 

[surfsnowgirl]

I ski mostly in Western Mass and Vermont and have concluded that with the terrain I ski on that I could sell off all my skis and use my 79 underfoot Volkl Charismas as my every day all day ski. However, I also believe that there is the right tool for the job and certain skis are better in certain conditions. I personally prefer to have different pairs ranging from 72 to 98 underfoot for use depending on the conditions at hand. I do try to make sure that any ski I own has some wiggle room on either end of the spectrum so that if I call it wrong on a particular day that with proper skiing I could make it work anyway. I was very surprised at how well my 98 underfoot ski carves and holds an edge on hard pack so I could certainly see a ski that "wide" be a daily driver for someone.

 

[beckylh84]

Skis too fat? Never. My daily work ski was 110 underfoot. Skied them every day, including the month of February, which yielded only 20" of snow.