Angulation

[litterbug]

Hmm this should all be fresh in my head since I just took my level 1. I believe angulation will just occur naturally if you have proper upper and lower body separation. We did a few drills to work on lateral balance, and as angulation is part of lateral balance, I'm assuming they would help. A good one was dragging your pole baskets on the snow, but you have to make sure they always have contact with the snow. Hold your poles below the handles so they're shorter. It really gives you the feeling of upper and lower body separation. Someone posted a picture in which they were doing the "tin man", leaning up the hill and balancing on the uphill ski. A good excercise for that is reaching your uphill hand down and touching your downhill boot (did I say that right? lol) it really encourages mobility and balancing on the downhill ski. Do a few runs with that drill and stiff tinman will go away!
The trouble with angulation is if you focus on just that, you will end up skiing...funny. I don't know how to explain it but I've seen people do it. It's like they're leaning their upper body from side to side. It's really strange to see. Anyway in a nutshell, angulation will fall into place if everything else is in place i.e. separation of upper and lower body, balance on downhill ski, oh and a nice pole plant, FARTHER down the hill than you think it should be. OH and don't let either hand/pole drop down into your pocket. Think athletic stance! Ready to fight! One other good one to try is carving or turning with your hands on your hips.

Good explanations, Jeepmum. I simply can’t angulate if my hips are akilter, if my arms are stiff, if my shoulders are turning up the hill, or if am simply stiffening up from fear or habit to keep my center mass from moving downhill. The angle is between the hips, which stay aligned with the shoulders, and the legs, which lean away from the center of the turn and keep the ski edges biting into the snow.

Jeepmum mentioned the two things which never fail to force me to angulate, so I’ll list them here: 1) at the end of the turn, just before the transition, reaching the downhill pole downhill; and (2) at the beginning of the next turn, reaching the new downhill hand down towards my boot. Both of these result in sticking my opposite hip towards the hill and thrust a little forward into the turn. The pole plant in particular makes it easy to end the old turn and start a new one when I’m at a standstill or a little off balance on uneven snow; this is because the downhill pole plant automatically pulls my body downhill into the next turn. I love my pole plant!!

I’ve got to say, talking about angulation itself seems baffling to me. Angulation is a result of separating the upper and lower body, letting the legs follow the skis and keeping the torso upright and facing where you’re going—usually towards the middle of the next turn. If you're not moving your weight out, angulating your body would make you fall uphill!! It makes a lot more sense to me to think of this separation and how to shift the weight into the next turn than to try to force angulation to happen all on its own (and probably fall down!!)

I was also trying geargrrls suggestion of pole planting much further down the hill and I like that I have been told to do that on really steep terrain but I tried it where I was skiing today and it it was good at getting me really forward on any terrain so a big for that.

I use a downhill poleplant with virtually every turn. On mellow terrain my pole barely touches the snow and is only a teensy bit downhill before my turn transition. On choppy or steeper snow I reach downhill and then drag my pole to keep myself oriented and balanced. As the terrain gets steeper the pole plant becomes definite and further downhill because steeps require a lot of angulation.

Let’s try this: ignoring the red line in SkiSailor’s photo, draw a straight line through her body from the toes of her left foot through her knees to her right shoulder. This is the gravitational force on her body for this particular turn shape on this particular slope. From her perspective this puts about half her mass on each side of the line. The skis are perpendicular to that line in order to support her weight against the snow. Her uphill hip is pulled towards the hill, and her upper body is more or less vertical and at an angle to her hips in order to balance her mass across the line of gravitational force. Note that her right hip is a little bit forward, which helps drive her through the turn.

I saw a great explanation and diagram somewhere on epicski; if I can find it I’ll post the link here.

 

[Robyn]

I think some are loosing sight of what angulation really is and why a skier wants it.

I'm going to copy a post by Bob Barnes on epicski.com that is a very good description of angulation and how it relates to banking and inclination. You can read the entire thread here https://www.epicski.com/forum/thread/54381/angulation-vs-banking

"It's important to understand that all these words--inclination, angulation, and banking--describe movements that simply happen in skiing. Some would make this into an argument about fundamental philosophy or suggest that they represent distinctly different techniques, or that one is inherently preferable while another is to be avoided.

But such is not the case, and this argument is really almost as silly as debating whether your right foot or your left foot should be ahead when walking. Any answer to that question, other than "it depends," is nonsense, isn't it? What's right in one case may be very wrong in another.

For those interested in understanding these concepts, let's take a closer look. For starters, here are some time-honored definitions of the terms:
Angulation. Suggesting the formation of angles, "angulation" refers to more-or-less sideways bending at various joints, particularly feet/ankles, knees, hips, and spine. When we angulate in any of these joints while maintaining balance, it changes the edge angle of the skis on the snow. In general, the more angulation, the higher the edge angle (again, assuming the skier remains in balance).

The feet, hips, and spine can bend sideways by design. The ankles and knees are not meant to bend sideways (much), so what we call "knee angulation" and "ankle angulation" are more complex then they may seem. "Knee angulation" involves normal fore-aft flexing of the knee, combined with internal rotation (turning "in") of the leg in the hip socket. "Ankle angulation" refers more to movements of the complex collection of bones in the foot, below the true ankle joint (which is strictly a fore-aft hinge joint).
Inclination. Meaning simply "lean," inclination in skiing refers to tipping your body into a turn for balance, something we do in many activities of motion--riding a bicycle, skating, even walking and running. More specifically, it refers to a movement of the center of mass toward the inside of a turn, with no implication as to the relative positions or movements of any parts of the body. In other words, you can incline while tall or short, and while angulated or not. Yes, we can talk about inclining specific parts of the body--shins, for example--but unless otherwise specified, "inclination" in general refers to the lean of the whole body (center of mass).
Banking. Banking is the special case of inclination without angulation, when the entire body leans into the turn while remaining more-or-less straight. Often considered an error, in fact banking can be the best move at times, especially in high level, high performance skiing where leaning into the turn (inclination) alone often produces sufficient edge angle.
Clearly, angulation and inclination both affect both edge angle and balance. I prefer to think of inclination as primarily a balancing move and angulation primarily as an edge control move, for several reasons. First, we incline in many things where edge angle is not an issue--riding a bicycle, for example, where we obviously lean into turns for balance. Second, while inclination on skis certainly affects edge angle, it is not something we can control or modify directly to adjust edge angle. For a given moment in any turn, there is only one degree of inclination that results in balance. I am compelled to lean that certain amount into each turn if I want to keep my balance, and I have no choice in the matter! So to me, "inclination" is best thought of as a balancing move.

I think of angulation, on the other hand, as primarily an edge control movement. I can adjust my degree of angulation at will, at any time, without losing my balance. For example, if you are simply standing upright and still, and you decide (for some reason) that you need to tip your feet and skis on edge, you will need to angulate. You can use any combination of feet/ankles, knees, hips, and spine, but the key is that as one part moves one way, another moves the other way to maintain balance.

Some knowledgeable skiers prefer to think of inclining the feet and lower legs as the edge control movement, and angulation as the movements of the upper body in the other direction to balance or counterbalance--an equally accurate way to look at the concepts. No conflict, as long as we understand the different effects of creating angles and moving the center of mass and remain consistent in our use of the terms. Beyond that, it's semantics and personal preference.

So what? What really matters, of course, is to know "so what the heck should I do?" Simple question, but the answer, naturally, is . . . "it depends!"

Need more edge angle? Angulate. Need less? "De-angulate" (bank). Out of balance? Hmm. . . could be could be either one. The key is to develop the skills and natural instincts to move as needed, to control both edge angle and balance continuously throughout turns.

Not long ago, when skis were long and straight, things may have been simpler. More edge angle was (almost always) more better, so banking usually was a fault. Today's skis respond much more sensitively to edge angle, and more edge angle is definitely not always better, even when simply trying to get the skis to hold. Today's skis change their behavior dramatically with even subtle changes of edge angle.

[Technical diversion for those interested; skip to the next paragraph if you're not!] A modern slalom ski with a 12-meter radius sidecut, tipped 30 degrees to the snow, will "want" to carve a turn slightly more than 10 meters in radius. Tip it to 45 degrees, and it will carve a turn of about 8.5 meters. At 60 degrees, it will "try" to carve a turn half its sidecut radius--6 meters. At 75 degrees to the snow surface--easily possible for strong skiers--that same ski will bend to an arc just over 3 meters! (Yes, for those curious or just argumentative, these numbers are somewhat simplified, and they assume very hard snow and sufficient and accurately distributed pressure to bend the ski into full "reverse camber" in each case. They are based on Tom "PhysicsMan's" simplified formula that carving radius = sidecut radius x cosine of edge angle on the snow. In real skiing, there are more variables that affect ski performance--snow conditions, sidecut shape, flex pattern, torsional and lateral stiffness, and so on.)

In any case, today's skis are hypersensitive to edge angle, and great skiing involves precise communication between skier and ski, with constant, fine control of edge angle for optimal ski performance. Tip a ski too far, and it will "try" to carve a turn tighter than you want, resulting in a less clean carve at best, sometimes skidding completely out of the turn. Many advanced skiers blow out at the bottoms of their turns due to too much edge angle--not too little--especially on steeps, where the hill angle adds to the edge angle, and where forces at the bottom of the turn become especially intense.

So arbitrary tips like "angulate more," or "keep the shoulders level with the hill," or "reach down the hill with your downhill arm," or "lift your uphill hip," all intended to create more angulation, may be good ideas to practice as exercises. But they do not necessarily describe good skiing! Sometimes you want the minimum edge angle that still allows your skis to hold--meaning banking with just enough ankle tension to keep your skis on line.

Think about this: Edge angle on the snow is the sum of the degrees of inclination and angulation (and also affected by the slope angle). The higher the speed in a given turn, the greater the inclination required for balance, so the less the need for angulation. That's why downhill racers going 80 mph often bank a lot. It's good skiing--not a fault. Nevertheless, a recreational skier on the same line at a third the speed will incline less and need more angulation. Banking for the recreational skier, in this case, would be a fault.

Like I said, it is much more complicated than simply saying "don't bank." Arbitrary advice like that is simply wrong! Imitating the positions and movements of World Cup racers at insane speed rarely leads to good skiing at 20 mph!

As I often do, I urge caution about accepting dogmatic advice about how you "should" look or move on skis. Great ski technique is situational, fluid, and responsive to the ever-changing forces that arise from varying speeds, conditions, terrain, turn shapes, ski performance, and skier intent. Great ski technique starts in the feet and moves up--"my feet tell me what to do," says Keystone instructor Peter Krainz (Austrian and PSIA certified). I like that! It does not start in the head as conscious directions that we try to enforce on our bodies regardless of the situation.

Sometimes you gotta bank. Sometimes you gotta not bank. Practice both, as exercises and drills, to develop skill and feel. But let your body--not your head--choose how to do it when skiing!

Best regards,
Bob Barnes"

I really like Bob's last sentence there and I think it speaks to a number of discussions going on here on Ski Diva of late. Instruction is invaluable, whether it be formal paid lessons or discussion on forums that get you thinking or skiing with people who can help us. However, we will never be able to apply that instruction instinctively without practicing and doing. Allowing concepts to become more instinctive. I have my own issues skiing that I work on (stupid inside leg needs more weighting as I finish turns!) but many things that I've worked through simply by practicing, reminding myself of what I'm working toward as I go out and ski and have fun.

 

[Robyn]

(Continue from above post)

Unfortunately, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree that SkiSailor's posted picture shows good angulation. The line as drawn goes from her left toe to right hip to left ear which of course is going to show angles. If one draws the line from the center of the feet, up to the center of the body then up the zipper line of the jacket there is actually more banking than angulation going on. Shoulders should be nearly horizontal to the surface of the snow (also shown well in this photo by the horizon) and here the right shoulder is significantly lower while the left hand is way high (although that could perhaps be an illusion created by the angle of the photo).

Here are 2 photos (one of Katy Perrey and one of myself) that show better angulation. Again, when drawing lines (I don't have the software or knowledge of how to actually do it on these photos) think centered.

Katy is one of the prettiest skiers I've ever had the pleasure of watching (and emulating) who has made her lifetime living teaching skiing.

The one of me has less angulation (didn't want as much edge angle in the condition I was skiing) But again shows the upper and lower body separation and shows horizontal shoulders and level hand placement.

I challenge those of you working with instructors to work to understand why something is being suggested to you. How will it help your skiing? What is really meant by angulation or upper and lower body separation or light on your feet or whatever else you're being told. Don't hesitate to ask for clarification. A good instructor will be able to either answer your question directly or describe the technique in a different manner. And they'll appreciate that you truly want to understand what you're doing.

 

[litterbug]

Jeepmum's explanation is great. Here's an attempt at a different kind of explanation of how it might work (PLEASE correct me if I'm off the mark!)

Look at Skisailor's picture again:

This time, draw a straight line from the toes of her left foot through her knees to her right shoulder. This represents the gravitational force on her body in this particular turn shape on this particular slope. Her uphill hip is pulled towards the hill over her legs, and her upper body is upright. As a result, from her perspective, roughly half her mass is on either side of the line of G-force, and she is perfectly in balance over her skis, which are perpendicular to this line in order to support her body. If she leans in without tilting her upper body at an angle to her legs, too much of her mass is uphill, her skis are pulled off their edges and slip out from under her, and she falls down. If she leans her upper body in instead of angling it out, her skis will shoot out from under her. If she starts to lean out without angling her hips inward, she tumbles downhill as I sometimes do.

Skisailor's photo shows her at the bottom of a turn, before she comes upright and starts the new turn, where she will come upright in order to start her new turn (probably with a pole plant of some kind). She is holding her downhill pole up, probably to keep it from catching on the apparently firm snow, but notice that if she were to reach her downhill arm toward her left boot, her upper body would move further out from the hill, so her hip would be pushed even further into the hill resulting in more angulation between upper and lower body (and a shorter turn shape, too).

As for pole plants, I use them on virtually every turn. On gentle hills my pole just brushes the ground a few inches downhill from my mass, and as things get steeper the pole plant is more definite and much further downhill to pull my upper body down the hill toward the center of my new turn, at which point my hips move uphill to keep me over my skis and my skis begin to turn. On uneven snow I tend to drag my pole just for balance. A good pole plant right before the transition doesn't just time my turn, it times the movement of my mass into the middle of my new turn.

I think this is pretty elegant because the line of gravity tips as the turns go from right to left and steep slopes to gentle ones. If I watch a good skier coming downhill I can visualize the tilting line of gravitational pull swooping smoothly back and forth across the hill. And when my movement becomes balanced along the line of gravitational pull, my skiing smooths out. Those are the times when everything is right with the world.

 

[litterbug]

Robyn sneaked in with Bob Barnes' wonderful explanation. Mine comes from the Deslauriers brothers' "Ski The Whole Mountain" combined with some stuff from Rick Scharffman from his contributions at epic. Their explanation of technique is wonderfully simple, but the whole idea of stacking toes, knees and shoulders proves up in almost every example of good skiing. And the book's ski porn, which is the greatest I've found so far in an instructional book, gives a ton of examples of all these principles in every imaginable condition, frequently against stunning scenery.

And I agree that Skisailor's form isn't perfect, but it does a good job of illustrating the general principle. I do prefer Katy's arm position, though, having just discovered that what I'm calling "chicken wings" completely changes how I stay balanced over my skis. Or something. It works, anyways.

 

[Jilly]

Gawd I love Bob...

Angulation is the angles created by the body in a turn. When angulated you can apply more edge angle. You can't if you only bank. Ankles, knees then hips is the order I was taught.

 

[litterbug]

Gawd I love Bob...

Angulation is the angles created by the body in a turn. When angulated you can apply more edge angle. You can't if you only bank. Ankles, knees then hips is the order I was taught.

The Deslauriers' are talking about where the line of gravity is no matter whether you're turning on a perfectly smooth blue groomer or sharply angulated with your upper body as far out as possible to be able to see down a 50 degree slope in a chute. Note that I say "you"; I'm certainly not doing anything like that anytime in the foreseeable future!!

I love Bob too. Rick is the one who explained the inside leg extension transition technique as well as the smeared turn; these were the first things I that started teaching me to pay attention to my transitions and control my speed while skiing parallel, which in turn allowed me to ski down much steeper terrain (yes, I know, you probably think the 'smeared' turn is a stemmed or skidded turn, but it's not; it's just a low-edge-angle parallel turn where the ski edges make a nice even C shaped turn with no stemming or skidding tails or whatever), so I'm forever in his debt. But Bob writes beautifully about technical stuff without being dogmatic or blinding us with science. He's so practical, too--it's whatever works, only he knows pretty much everything that does.

 

[Stowski]

I have been reading this with interest although I confess that I can't learn this way and the descriptions are baffling to me. I can't imagine trying to think about all of this while I'm skiing! I don't think I'd enjoy it. I know that I feel like sometimes heading towards the bumps is "work" for me and I suppose this is the same thing. I guess I feel like I'm skiing well when I feel like I'm swinging (gliding? Floating?) from side to side down the hill. When I hit my rhythm I feel it and my tracks show it (so does my smile). I've been Ok with the video that I've seen of myself although I know that I can fall apart on icy steeps. I will keep reading and trying to learn, but I need VIDEO (and practice)!

 

[mountainxtc]

Some good thinking going on in this thread I've spent a bit of time working on my response and have come to the realization that explaining this without being able to demonstrate is extremely difficult. I'm going to post it anyway, with the disclaimer that I haven't been able to articulate exactly what I want to through written words alone..... Here's my take.

Symptom: losing altitude through sliding. You start the turn on an arc but you continue to move outside the initial arc as the turn progresses instead of the tails following the line of the tips.

Reason: Lack of edge grip.

Solution (amongst others): Angulation.

To sum it up, angulation will help you to control exactly where the turn happens/finishes once it's been started. Have you ever tried to follow in an instructors tracks and been unable to? This is a large part of the solution.

Edge grip. You get this by tipping the skis. You can tip the skis in one of 2 ways:

1. Inclination. Also known as banking. Basically tipping your body into the hill. Effective, obviously, in tipping the skis. But. How much the ski is tipped on the snow has nothing whatsoever to do with how well it holds. In fact, the more we incline the less likely the edge is to hold unless we can somehow recover our lateral balance. Inclination alone results in imbalance in the lateral plane because we move our entire mass inside the turn. Hence, our feet start sliding out from underneath us down the hill.

2. Angulation. Tipping the ski by progressively moving our ankles, knees and hips into the hill whilst using our upper body to maintain lateral balance over the outside ski. All most people need to think about is to keep the torso vertical and shoulders level as the legs edge. If you are doing this well you will see a C shape gets formed by your body on your downhill side. Many people feel a pinch at the waist on the downhill side. I tell people that they should feel their feet underneath their mass and not pushed away to the side. How much angulation you need is entirely dependent on the situation. Speed, pitch, conditions, etc. Use the minimum amount necessary for the edge to hold.

Angulation has nothing to do with upper/lower body separation. For those instructors among us, it is related to the Stance and balance (lateral plane) and edging skills. Upper/lower body separation is the stance and balance (rotational plane) and pivoting skills.

Good drills for developing good angulation are outriggers, Schlopy turns, statue of liberty turns, pole dragging, etc. Always start by thinking about the smaller joints (ankles and knees) before the hip. Make sure you are aligned on the rotational plane (it's common for women to twist their hip into the hill (see skisailor's first pic above) as opposed to moving it in laterally. Outriggers are my favorite drill for this because they help to keep you aligned without you having to think about it.

I'm going to leave it at that for now. I'm sure there will be questions. Fire away

 

[mountainxtc]

So I also just realized that I posted without reading any of page 2 of this thread!

There's been a lot of talk about skisailor's pic. IMO it's actually not a good photo to demonstrate angulation at all. Good or bad. Which is probably why there are so many different opinions about it. I would want to get her aligned rotationally by working on her pivoting skills before commenting on edging.

If you look at the photo of Katy you can see that she is very well aligned, rotationally, and so it's easy to look at the angles she is creating. Which, incidentally, are very nice

 

[ski diva]

Outriggers are my favorite drill for this because they help to keep you aligned without you having to think about it.

What are outriggers? And schlopy turns?

 

[litterbug]

I have been reading this with interest although I confess that I can't learn this way and the descriptions are baffling to me. I can't imagine trying to think about all of this while I'm skiing! I don't think I'd enjoy it. I know that I feel like sometimes heading towards the bumps is "work" for me and I suppose this is the same thing. I guess I feel like I'm skiing well when I feel like I'm swinging (gliding? Floating?) from side to side down the hill. When I hit my rhythm I feel it and my tracks show it (so does my smile). I've been Ok with the video that I've seen of myself although I know that I can fall apart on icy steeps. I will keep reading and trying to learn, but I need VIDEO (and practice)!

I know what you mean about the swinging/floating back and forth; to me it feels kind of like the pendulum on a big grandfather clock, and it makes me feel so graceful.

I have to drive everything out of my head while I'm skiing except when I need to focus on something. I usually have something I start with to get me on my skis and turning and feeling comfortable. Thinking about when and where I plant my poles is really helping my balance and confidence, so that's all I thought about yesterday when balance was a challenge. It seems that in different conditions or moods or on different skis I need to focus on different things, but it's a disaster if I try to think too much.

The whole gravity/physics thing is interesting in an intellectual way, and maybe a great but intellectual skier could think about all the details. The thing I love is that it's helpful in understanding why we do things, which is an important thing for me to understand when I'm trying to get it into my body, but after that it's a matter of feeling when I'm on and when I'm off.

 

[Stowski]

I know what you mean about the swinging/floating back and forth; to me it feels kind of like the pendulum on a big grandfather clock, and it makes me feel so graceful. .

Yes! Exactly like a pendulum! I love that feeling!

 

[Stowski]

So I found this video on epci ski while googling outrigger drills. Is this what you are all talking about?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlzIkIQa3e0

 

[mountainxtc]

Outriggers - I know I have typed out an explanation of this one somewhere - I will try to find it and post the link.

Schlopy turns - named after Eric, naturally - are essentially bringing your outside hand to your outside boot whilst bringing your inside hand up to make a right angle between your arm and torso. Here's a vid. I don't know this lady, I just found it on youtube.

[YOUTUBE]PB5H94tEexk[/YOUTUBE]

She's not doing it great, but you get the picture....

 

[litterbug]

Outriggers - I know I have typed out an explanation of this one somewhere - I will try to find it and post the link.

Schlopy turns - named after Eric, naturally - are essentially bringing your outside hand to your outside boot whilst bringing your inside hand up to make a right angle between your arm and torso. Here's a vid. I don't know this lady, I just found it on youtube.

[YOUTUBE]PB5H94tEexk[/YOUTUBE]

She's not doing it great, but you get the picture....

Her body is turning to face her ski tips through the entire turn; she tips her hips toward the hill but otherwise turns her entire body as a unit. Is it the step just before separating the upper and lower body completely? I guess I could see separating the two motions--separating the body side to side, and then allowing the upper and lower body to turn separately.

 

[mountainxtc]

So I found this video on epci ski while googling outrigger drills. Is this what you are all talking about?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlzIkIQa3e0

There's no outriggers in that video. That's Klaus Mair - I worked with him at the beginning of my career. Great skier. He does do a single great Schlopy turn at 4:10 in that video!

 

[Stowski]

There's no outriggers in that video. That's Klaus Mair - I worked with him at the beginning of my career. Great skier. He does do a single great Schlopy turn at 4:10 in that video!

Yes, I edited to say, "is this what you mean by angulation?"

 

[mountainxtc]

Her body is turning to face her ski tips through the entire turn; she tips her hips toward the hill but otherwise turns her entire body as a unit. Is it the step just before separating the upper and lower body completely? I guess I could see separating the two motions--separating the body side to side, and then allowing the upper and lower body to turn separately.

No, she has great separation. She does not turn her entire body as a unit, the turn is initiated with the lower body. This may not be obvious because she is doing a GS type carved turn. She's probably a masters racer in training or something. It's actually a more refined step than the more pivoted turn.

 

[Skisailor]

Make sure you are aligned on the rotational plane (it's common for women to twist their hip into the hill (see skisailor's first pic above) as opposed to moving it in laterally.

oooh . . oooh . . . me next!

This has me a bit confused. Can you explain what you mean when you say . . . it's common for women to twist their hip "into the hill" as opposed to moving it in laterally.

I'm having trouble visualizing what you mean by that.

Also, if you are making turns with proper upper/lower body separation, isn't your rotational alignment constantly changing? Or am I not understanding what you mean by rotational alignment . . . .