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DIVA DOGS!

mustski

Angel Diva
If you've had GSDs and never had any problem dogs, you must be doing something right!
Shepherds are actually really compliant! They live to please their people! I love smart dogs, but I am a bit worried about the super high intelligence of the poodles. I've heard that they can outsmart you. They learn to open doors and defeat childproof cupboards!
 

bounceswoosh

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
We just had the Boulder Bark Busters trainer come work with our dogs - mostly Loki - for the first time. Wow. What an eye opener. Loki quickly went from "the difficult dog" to the "I just want to please you" dog. We saw how Cooper is actually sometimes not the better behaved dog. I started to get the picture that the way we have been living doesn't have to be how we continue to live with the dogs - I am seeing the possibility of taking a walk without cowering in fear of another dog or a bunny rabbit in our path. I love training in our home and yard.

I paid for the full year of unlimited training, which wasn't actually terribly expensive. This means she can come out with us on walks and generally help wherever it's needed.

I kind of knew it would be like this, but still. It's so good to see that Loki is capable of being a very good boy with the right cues. I'm excited for a path forward.
 

va_deb

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
That's fabulous, @bounceswoosh! I'd love to hear more about Loki's transformation and change in attitude and how you'll reinforce it, and the general BB philosophy.

We're still having challenges with our pack, periodically.
 

bounceswoosh

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
That's fabulous, @bounceswoosh! I'd love to hear more about Loki's transformation and change in attitude and how you'll reinforce it, and the general BB philosophy.

We're still having challenges with our pack, periodically.

I told the trainer the techniques sound very similar to what Cesar Milan espouses, and she agreed, saying the big difference is that they do no physical discipline - in fact the only touch is with praise. But it's definitely about asserting dominance and "I'm in charge," which she says makes the dogs less anxious, because they'd actually prefer not to be in charge - but they don't think we are, so they try to take things into their own hands (paws).

I'm not 100% sold on the alpha leader / pack structure thing, as later studies have shown that the wolf pack as we've understood it has a lot to do with what wolves do in captivity, not so much in the wild. That being said, obviously we DO need the dogs to understand we're in charge - not just for our sanity, but also for their (and our) safety.

There are a few basics that we need to work on consistently for the next five weeks (tricky since I'll be recovering from surgery for 2-3 of them). Lots of common stuff - don't let the dogs walk ahead of us (we have never enforced that, so that's a big change). We enforce not walking ahead by changing directions. Not letting the dogs walk ahead kind of addresses loose leash, too. Lavish praise when they're doing what we want. Always be standing upright and projecting confidence when giving commands - don't get in their faces or down to their level. But do crouch when calling them, and that's kind of a judgment call whether to be stern or be soft and cajoling.

For corrections, basically four levels. First is to make a growl sound they taught us, which they spell BAH but sounds truly like a dog growl. It is intended to be not just "stop what you're doing" but "look to me for direction" and is claimed to imitate what a dog leader would do. I personally witnessed Loki running up the front door and woofing while we were sitting on the couch. Without moving a muscle, the trainer made the growl sound - and Loki instantly stopped and came running. That's when I was sold. No physical interaction, no big commotion, no stress, and he stopped doing something I'd never had success with.

Anyway, after growl, a loud clap. After loud clap, there's a sturdy nylon baggie with chain sewn in. The idea is you toss the baggie near the dog to get their attention. This has been very effective, but also freaks Loki out, so I want to use it very sparingly. Finally a spray bottle to the face. We used the spray bottle when teaching the dogs not to crowd the door when we answer it. Pretty effective. I do not consider any of these techniques to be abusive or harsh (as long as you don't throw the chain bag thing AT the dog, but near it). Some of the people online do seem to think it's borderline cruel. But this training method absolutely rejects pinch collars, choke collars, etc. They do include a collar that's similar to a martingale, which is fit so that the tightest point is *just* tight, not in any way constricting. I'd say about the fit of a men's tie. The crucial point is that pulling it just right (I'm working on that part) makes a "zip" sound of the chain going through the metal loop that gets their attention.

Today, I was able to use the growl sound once to get both dogs to stop barking at the door, and twice to get Loki to come in. Last night I had to use the throw things to get Loki in. And so far I haven't had the scenario where Loki gets into what I call his "frantic barking" mode, where he's escalating and freaking out. It'll be interesting to see if the techniques work there. ALSO if I'm going to be throwing these things in the back yard, and practicing lots of walking in the back yard, we're going to need to be cleaning up a lot better back there ...

I suspect a lot of the effectiveness has to do with the individual trainer (aside of course from the owner actually working on these techniques with the dogs). Our trainer has a lot of experience and is clearly very loving with dogs. We were 100% comfortable with her recommendations and techniques, and she repeatedly reminded us to praise lavishly, not just correct. Oh, right - for the next five weeks, we are not to give attention to the dogs when they try to get it - paw on lap, head on lap, that kind of thing. Attention is on our terms, even if that means waiting until they give up, then immediately calling them and petting them.

A major part of this session was realizing when I was giving conflicting messages. I'd cluck (similar to what you'd do around horses, maybe, at least I think that's where I got it) to get them to follow me, but also to get them to stop. I'd start out tall to give a command like "sit," then crouch in front of them and speak softly and maybe pet them. CONFUSING.

When we encounter other dogs on walks, I tend to be hauling on their leashes or straddling Loki and physically restraining him. The trainer said the idea is to get them thinking, rather than controlling them. Get them paying attention to my cues. This sounds like crazy talk, but after the Thursday session, I think it could actually work. This is where the repeat visits will come in - I want to actually go on walks with the trainer and have some of those situations happen.
 
@mustski how are the puppies doing?

This isn't my dog but he belongs to a good friend of mine and he's my doggie boyfriend. We have many moments of staring into each others eyes and he showers me with kisses. Today I got a hug for the first time. I love Nelson and I'm pretty sure the feeling is mutual

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Christy

Angel Diva
I'm not 100% sold on the alpha leader / pack structure thing, as later studies have shown that the wolf pack as we've understood it has a lot to do with what wolves do in captivity, not so much in the wild.

Totally. That stuff was debunked years ago (it's why the popularity of Cesar Milan drives modern trainers crazy, among other reasons). Dog behavior didn't used to be a field of serious study, but now it is, and there are a lot of animal behaviorists doing really interesting work on dogs, and we know so much more than we used to about humane, science based training (and we already knew that positive reinforcement just works better than punishment based training espoused by Cesar and other old school types).
 

bounceswoosh

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Totally. That stuff was debunked years ago (it's why the popularity of Cesar Milan drives modern trainers crazy, among other reasons). Dog behavior didn't used to be a field of serious study, but now it is, and there are a lot of animal behaviorists doing really interesting work on dogs, and we know so much more than we used to about humane, science based training (and we already knew that positive reinforcement just works better than punishment based training espoused by Cesar and other old school types).

See, I have watched lots of Cesar Milan shows, and for the most part I don't see punishment. I've done tons of positive behavior training with both dogs - Cooper responded brilliantly; Loki didn't care. With this new trainer I wouldn't call it punishment, either, but beyond getting their attention with a gruff "growl" sound - which works WONDERS with Loki - and clapping, there are two escalations - throwing a loud pillow with chains *near* the dog to get their attention, and in extreme situations, spraying *water* (nothing added) into their faces. Good behavior is praised lavishly and immediately. No treats. We used all of the above a couple of times with crowding at the door and coming when called, and haven't had to use the escalating techniques since. Loki in particular seems to respond to the combo of a "corrective" growl and lavish praise when he's doing the right thing. It's clear that he lacked confidence and didn't really know what I wanted from him before, and now he's clear and happier. The trainer pointed out that I was confusing Loki with some of my behaviors; making it really clear what is approval and what is disapproval, with different tones and body language, has made a huge difference. Trainer made it clear you *never* touch for discipline; only for affection.

So I get what you're saying, but I wouldn't call any of the above inhumane, and it has resulted in Loki paying a lot closer attention to me and what I need from him. He comes when called, only barks once or twice when the doorbell rings (DH didn't want them to stop barking entirely), and if he's barking in the back yard, he stops when I tell him to. He's a better canine citizen, and we have a better relationship.
 

Christy

Angel Diva
See, I have watched lots of Cesar Milan shows, and for the most part I don't see punishment.

Punishment is when something unpleasant happens to the animal when they do something unwanted. Probably most people equate punishment with something really abusive, but from an animal learning standpoint, it's not necessarily inhumane--even just one of those Cesar "tsst" pokes or kicks is punishment. (Cesar also uses shock collars, choking, flooding, leash jerks, alpha rolls, and other harsher techniques, which fall more in line with what people might think of as punishments, and that's what so often gets people really upset with him). This is why Cesar's techniques are considered punishment-based. The problem with punishments even when they seem innocuous is that it may interrupt the behavior, but it doesn't give the dog a replacement behavior. It tells them what not to do, but not what to do instead (this goes back to B.F. Skinner), and so it's just not the most effective way to train an animal.

So I get what you're saying, but I wouldn't call any of the above inhumane,

I didn't call any of your actions inhumane--I don't see where you've described doing anything inhumane. And I imagine a trainer that still believes in dominance theory could have useful things to teach. Someone coming over to watch you and point out confusing behaviors is certainly a good thing. The only thing that made me make a face was the no treats thing. That's one thing scientists know--it's possible to train animals without that kind of reward, but it's a lot harder than it needs to be.

And this...

The trainer said the idea is to get them thinking, rather than controlling them. Get them paying attention to my cues. This sounds like crazy talk,

That's not crazy at all. IMO that's the best way to do it and that's a HUGE difference from how Cesar would do it--he'd kick the dog to get it's attention, but that's only going to work for so long--it's not going to teach them an appropriate alternative response they way you are, by teaching your dogs to pay attention to you. Reggie has made enormous progress with his fear of strangers by learning to pay attention to us, and to self soothe by sniffing the ground.
 

bounceswoosh

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
The only thing that made me make a face was the no treats thing. That's one thing scientists know--it's possible to train animals without that kind of reward, but it's a lot harder than it needs to be.

My two data points suggest that's extremely dog dependent. It makes sense if dogs are food motivated. Cooper will do anything for a treat. Typical labrador. Loki has never shown any interest in modifying behavior for treats, favorite toys, anything like that. They only work in the absence of whatever is more interesting - that dog across the street, a particularly fascinating leaf, the enjoyment of the cool night air. We never had any luck with him in any of the training situations in which Cooper thrived. Even the best, most smelly treats only got Loki's attention for a couple of sits or downs, and never worked for coming when called.

I agree it's very hard =)
 

mustski

Angel Diva
Our puppies are a study in opposites. Sadie will work for food - anytime, all the time! That dog is food crazy. Hawkins on the other hand will work for food but with much less fervor. It's been a little over a week. The potty training was going fantastic and then, for no reason that I can see, they reverted to peeing on the floor instead of asking to go out. They were asking quite clearly for a couple of days. Either way, they are super smart and totally cute. I can't upload photos because "the file size" is too large. I'll figure it out tomorrow when I have more time.
 

Christy

Angel Diva
I agree it's tough when a dog isn't treat motivated. A lot of times upping the ante works, which usually means pretty gross organ meats or the like, but there are those outliers that just aren't buying it.

I can't upload photos because "the file size" is too large.

Recently this site starting requiring that photos be pretty small. You can use any one of a number of free online photo resizers to make them smaller. It's a bummer because it reduces the quality of course. But at least then we get to see your pups. :smile:
 
I am really hoping that my doggie when I get him/her is treat motivated because it just makes life so much easier. Most of our doggies at work are treat motivated and it sure makes life easier.

What I do to make photos smaller is I'll email them to myself via my phone but before I hit send I use the option to reduce the photo size to small. This seems to do the trick.
 

bounceswoosh

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I agree it's tough when a dog isn't treat motivated. A lot of times upping the ante works, which usually means pretty gross organ meats or the like, but there are those outliers that just aren't buying it.

We tried some pretty stinky gross treats with Loki. They might work once or twice in an isolated training scenario, but not in the real world with distractions. Ultimately he's more interested in his own pursuits than in the treat.

BUT with the new training system (and/or with the less ambiguous body language and commands), he has come every time when called, and after the first few times it's without really any effort aside from calling him. If I had to guess at what's going on in that furry little head, it's that he does care about making me happy, and my training attempts were just confusing him or leading him to believe that what he was doing was effective.

Dog is weird. When I make them sit and wait for their food, he will drool like crazy and shoulder check Cooper out of the way on the stampede to the bowls once released. But on a hike, even if he does eventually come back when called, he just spits the treats out. I guess food just isn't compelling compared to the sights and smells and sounds of the outdoors. I wish I were like that!

Recently this site starting requiring that photos be pretty small. You can use any one of a number of free online photo resizers to make them smaller. It's a bummer because it reduces the quality of course. But at least then we get to see your pups. :smile:

I put pics up on a free sharing site like imgur, then link to them here using the image button next to the smiley face button. That way you can get high quality. It's an extra step, but it works. If you're concerned about some level of privacy, Imgur lets you set it so people can only see the image if you provide the URL, so no one will accidentally find it in an image search.

I am really hoping that my doggie when I get him/her is treat motivated because it just makes life so much easier. Most of our doggies at work are treat motivated and it sure makes life easier.

I'm sure you can test that when doing a meet and greet. Bring some yummy treats and work on an "eyes on me" type drill maybe? Christy could surely suggest a first drill. The point wouldn't be to get the training to take, but just to see if the treats work as motivation. It might be misleading, true - Cooper was so underweight when we got him that he would have eaten shoe leather, I think, if presented with the option. The first thing he did when he got in our back yard was to eat a rose blossom!
 
I'm sure you can test that when doing a meet and greet. Bring some yummy treats and work on an "eyes on me" type drill maybe? Christy could surely suggest a first drill. The point wouldn't be to get the training to take, but just to see if the treats work as motivation. It might be misleading, true - Cooper was so underweight when we got him that he would have eaten shoe leather, I think, if presented with the option. The first thing he did when he got in our back yard was to eat a rose blossom!

I think I have doggie power in my eyes. We were leaving this restaurant last night when this woman was walking her 2 doggies. The pittie and I just made eye contact and I must have done a little "shining" to him and next thing he's gently pulling his human over to me so he can say hello. I let him sniff me, kept eye contact and then proceeded to bend down and we had our little sweet moment. My one coworker has his little dog Teddy that likes to grab the tennis ball and run with it and isn't so good about dropping it to have you throw it again. He comes to me with the ball and drops it for me when I look him in the eye and make this motion with my hands. Jack says wow, I'm the only one he does this for and his wife must never find out that he does this for me because he won't even do it for her. All the dogs love me at work. I think its cause the word on the street is they all know I give out treats but I only give out one treat per day per dog and they all still visit me all day long for some lovin. My boss will walk by and smile probably thinking there goes Kim on the floor again with a dog. They call me the dog whisperer. I would love to be a dog trainer one day. Maybe I'll get certified and do this to supplement my income one day after I give corporate life the finger and move to the mountains.

I will definitely try the treats thing when we go to the pound/rescue place to get the doggie. I will sit in the middle of the floor with some good treats with the come to mama look in my eyes and see who's interested ha ha.
 

bounceswoosh

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I think I have doggie power in my eyes. We were leaving this restaurant last night when this woman was walking her 2 doggies. The pittie and I just made eye contact and I must have done a little "shining" to him and next thing he's gently pulling his human over to me so he can say hello. I let him sniff me, kept eye contact and then proceeded to bend down and we had our little sweet moment. My one coworker has his little dog Teddy that likes to grab the tennis ball and run with it and isn't so good about dropping it to have you throw it again. He comes to me with the ball and drops it for me when I look him in the eye and make this motion with my hands. Jack says wow, I'm the only one he does this for and his wife must never find out that he does this for me because he won't even do it for her. All the dogs love me at work. I think its cause the word on the street is they all know I give out treats but I only give out one treat per day per dog and they all still visit me all day long for some lovin. My boss will walk by and smile probably thinking there goes Kim on the floor again with a dog. They call me the dog whisperer. I would love to be a dog trainer one day. Maybe I'll get certified and do this to supplement my income one day after I give corporate life the finger and move to the mountains.

I will definitely try the treats thing when we go to the pound/rescue place to get the doggie. I will sit in the middle of the floor with some good treats with the come to mama look in my eyes and see who's interested ha ha.

Nice!

Just ... be aware some dogs will be a challenge. I thought I was pretty great with dogs until Loki. But you may have a good no-nonsense demeanor when it comes to communicating with dogs.

Also, dogs change when they get home. Our vet warned me of that - she said, once your dog knows he's really home for good, he may get up to more mischief. I don't know if dogs really feel that way, seems like anthropomorphizing, but anyway, we did see their personalities develop after they were with us a few months.
 
Nice!

Just ... be aware some dogs will be a challenge. I thought I was pretty great with dogs until Loki. But you may have a good no-nonsense demeanor when it comes to communicating with dogs.

Also, dogs change when they get home. Our vet warned me of that - she said, once your dog knows he's really home for good, he may get up to more mischief. I don't know if dogs really feel that way, seems like anthropomorphizing, but anyway, we did see their personalities develop after they were with us a few months.

I am the disciplinarian of the house. I even have the cats to the point where when they start to do something bad i go uh uh in a stern tone and they stop in their tracks.

I would like to take a dog trainer course cause i have lots to learn plus my luck we will get that dog that isn't treat motivated and/or has behavior changes when they get home so i want extra tools to deal with that.
 

bounceswoosh

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I am the disciplinarian of the house. I even have the cats to the point where when they start to do something bad i go uh uh in a stern tone and they stop in their tracks.

I had that with Oscar =) If DH tried that, she'd just look at him scornfully and keep doing whatever it was. I think she just knew I would grab her claws and all; he was intimidated.
 

mustski

Angel Diva
Here are a couple of shots from last weekend. Right now they are filthy and aren't getting a bath until tomorrow so no new pics until post bath.
close up - 1.jpg
They are both scaliwags!
 

bounceswoosh

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Here are a couple of shots from last weekend. Right now they are filthy and aren't getting a bath until tomorrow so no new pics until post bath.
View attachment 5583
They are both scaliwags!

Cuties! I think with a white dog, you're going to be fighting (visible) filth all their lives. My brown and black dogs hide it pretty well till you realize their fur is crunchy from chewing on each other ...
 

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