Who gets to ski? NYT article

[SallyCat]

I couldn't get past the paywall.

SMH, I just realized you were talking about the original article and not the one I posted.
Sorry; trying to juggle too many plates and some of them are starting to hit the floor!

 

[Jenny]

No worries!

 

[Stay Tuned]

Attributing lower pass prices to inclusion is so incredibly disingenuous when it's clearly a cash grab. If these corporations really cared about making skiing accessible, they could make passes more affordable to those in certain income thresholds just as they are to students and seniors, add back half day passes, and enforce a maximum number of guests per day so that not just the part of buying a season pass is accessible but that the actual skiing part is too.

 

[newboots]

Hi @Stay Tuned - you seem new around here! Did I offer you my hello before? It's late, and I'm too lazy to check. Glad you're here, and thanks for the excellent comment.

 

[2ski2moro]

It was within the last few years that we talked about the high cost for families. That baby boomers were aging out of the sport. How would we attract future generations?

The proposed was solution lowering the barrier to entry and making the sport more affordable.

Here we are.

Affordable season passes have opened the doors and now the complaints begin.

Day-trippers are driving 3 hours to take advantage of their season passes. They save money instead of sleeping in $300 per night accommodations and bring their lunches instead of eating $15 hamburgers.

Overheard on the chair at Okemo on Sunday. “These crowds are crazy. I remember the good old days when the lines were never longer than 2 minutes. Of course my season pass cost $1700, but it kept the Walmart people out.”

I had so much I wanted to say to him, but I kept my mouth shut.

 

[MissySki]

I would be plenty happy with paying more for a pass to keep crowds down. I mean technically I already pay significantly more to ensure I don't have to stand in lift lines on weekends by doing a seasonal program, though it does also have the benefit of instruction added in so I feel it's very worth the added expense. The line cutting privilege is not an insignificant benefit on weekends though. I'm also lucky not to be dealing with the traffic (I've been hearing a lot about this from others on weekends with traffic stopped miles away from the access road on recent Saturdays which we have never had before) or parking issues since I now own a place on the mountain that comes with parking.

I'm not sure what the answer to the current problems would be other than increased prices to lower consumption for those more impacted. That's just economics..

 

[elemmac]

One thing the big resorts could do is support and sustain the small, feeder hills that really make skiing accessible and inclusive. I'm not imagining Vail taking ownership of small hills (NO!), but maybe having a funding arm that can give them an economic boost to repair old lifts and purchase rental gear and maintain their lodges and such. It seems like a win-win-win that wouldn't be terribly burdensome on the big conglomerates, at least if they're willing to break away a bit from the cult of shareholder wealth maximization and try to be a real, sustainable business.

I'll give a shout out to Sunday River and Boyne on this one. Though, I haven't heard anything recent, I know they've done donation matches during fundraisers, and snowmaking equipment donations to Black Mountain of Maine, a small non-profit ski hill about a 1/2 hour away. I would absolutely love to hear more from other places (and more from Boyne) supporting the little guys.

 

[RachelV]

...
The proposed was solution lowering the barrier to entry and making the sport more affordable.

Here we are.
...

The thing is, I'm not sure the barrier to entry is low, still. It's cheaper than ever to ski if you know you want to ski a bit and already own all the gear, but if you have a few kids and want to try the sport once, what are you supposed to do? If you're a casual skier and want to go once or twice a season and don't own your own gear, what are you supposed to do? $50 window tickets and bundled rental packages would do a lot more to make the sport truly accessible than cheap season passes, imho. I'm pretty sure the only ones who are truly benefiting from the current price structure are Vail and Alterra.

 

[Kathy Bennett]

I know it's not the point of the story, but Industry exec keep saying the number of skiers/snowboarders hasn't changed. How can that be true? If that kid is looking at the webcam and seeing lines he didn't see a few years ago, how can they say there aren't more people at the mountain? I can only assume they're looking at an average. And maybe including more days to get that average?

Because the lifts are breaking down or not running due to staff shortages - that makes lift lines longer on the lifts that are operational.

 

[Christy]

The thing is, I'm not sure the barrier to entry is low, still. It's cheaper than ever to ski if you know you want to ski a bit and already own all the gear, but if you have a few kids and want to try the sport once, what are you supposed to do? If you're a casual skier and want to go once or twice a season and don't own your own gear, what are you supposed to do? $50 window tickets and bundled rental packages would do a lot more to make the sport truly accessible than cheap season passes, imho. I'm pretty sure the only ones who are truly benefiting from the current price structure are Vail and Alterra.

100% agree. Daily lift tickets have become unaffordable at these places that are supposedly broadening access via lower pass prices, but if you are lower income or even just a family on a budget, buying one of the supposedly affordable passes is probably out of the question.

When I learned to ski around 2004 I took advantage of one of those cheap beginner deals, then kept at it because lift tickets were around $50/day. It wasn't THAT long ago that I paid almost $60 for the first time and thought, ooh, Crystal has gotten expensive! Daily tickets where I learned to ski are now $110-$189, if you can even get them--you can't get them walking up on weekends anymore, and I see they are sold out for upcoming weekends. And that's because so many people have the $600-$900 passes they have to regular the non-passholders. So not only does a newbie have to shell out $$$$ they have to know 3 weeks in advance they want to ski a particular day, then if that day comes and conditions are bad...this promotes equity how?

 

[2ski2moro]

The thing is, I'm not sure the barrier to entry is low, still. It's cheaper than ever to ski if you know you want to ski a bit and already own all the gear, but if you have a few kids and want to try the sport once, what are you supposed to do? If you're a casual skier and want to go once or twice a season and don't own your own gear, what are you supposed to do? $50 window tickets and bundled rental packages would do a lot more to make the sport truly accessible than cheap season passes, imho. I'm pretty sure the only ones who are truly benefiting from the current price structure are Vail and Alterra.

Are we discussing crowding or inclusion? I was talking crowding and traffic issues.

I’m not implying that the price is affordable to all, just to more people.

Families don’t need to buy Spyder outfits and new equipment to try it out. In CT, a seasonal ski rental is around $100 for a child. Under 6 skis free with paying adult or adult pass. Resale shops and skis and swaps have bargains, too.

I think that any activity for children requires a financial commitment. Dance. Music. Equestrian. Swim team. The classes. The travel. The uniforms. The TIME commitment.

Skiing gives families something to do together.

As far as an occasional skier, i look at my husband. He’s a workaholic. No life balance at all. When I showed him the Epic pass senior pricing, he realized that it was a 3 day break even. He rationalized that he could get back into skiing on Sundays without a $800+ pass. After a 5 year hiatus, we are back to skiing together on Sundays. Yay! Without Epic, he and I wouldn’t be there.

 

[Christy]

As far as an occasional skier, i look at my husband. He’s a workaholic. No life balance at all. When I showed him the Epic pass senior pricing, he realized that it was a 3 day break even. He rationalized that he could get back into skiing on Sundays without a $800+ pass. After a 5 year hiatus, we are back to skiing together on Sundays. Yay! Without Epic, he and I wouldn’t be there.

I think we all agree that the passes have been a wild success, and (theoretically) provide a good value to those that already know how to ski. I think there are tons of people like your husband, who can't resist the value. My husband couldn't either--he had never bought an Epic Pass, but between known vacation days and Whistler and the fact that he could then essentially ski at Stevens for free after counting the Whistler days made it irresistible.

But that's not what it means to reduce "barriers to entry." Neither of our husbands were entering the sport. But, this is what the corporations argue they are doing. People who want to try the sport, especially if they are lower income, are not going to want to spend the $583 (for the limited pass) plus all the other costs to try something they have no idea if they will like. I wouldn't have.

As passes got cheaper, day prices got crazy expensive and often unobtainable (selling out weeks in advance). And that is a huge new barrier to entry.

 

[Stay Tuned]

Hi @Stay Tuned - you seem new around here! Did I offer you my hello before? It's late, and I'm too lazy to check. Glad you're here, and thanks for the excellent comment.

Thank you for the warm welcome! What a wonderful community to be a part of!

 

[floatingyardsale]

I think the season pass prices make it easier for those who already ski to afford skiing or for occasional skiers to get more days in. I'm not sure about the barrier to entry for newbies. E.g., Snowbasin changed its pass structure this past year, and the big difference for us was that only 0-4 are free. I don't mind paying for my kids now - we're certainly getting our money's worth and I'm accepting that somehow I created powderhounds - but if I'd had to pay (as a newish skier myself) for a season pass for a 5yo three years ago, I'm not sure we would have picked up the sport. Because they had the 0-6 free option, it made sense for us to try it out (with secondhand gear, season rentals.)

And the increase in day prices makes it practically impossible for us to bring an 11yo friend up for the day to see if she likes it. We have a line on cheaper rentals and a buddy pass and it's still a decent chunk of change.

 

[NWSkiGirl]

Who Gets to Ski? (Published 2022)

The mountains are too crowded. The sport is too expensive. Several resorts are trying to fix a number of problems. How are they doing?

www.nytimes.com

Interesting and kind of a bummer read.

I'm really upset by Alterra's quote in this article:

Rusty Gregory, the chief executive of Alterra Mountain Company, said, “I think it’s an obligation for us to diversify.” He added that “being good stewards of the land means opening it up to all.”

Yet Alterra, at my home mountain Crystal in WA, has raised ski pass rates to $1700+ this year, up from $695 three years ago when they bought the mountain. I've done some research over the past several days, and Alterra is actually doing a brilliant job in the media. They say all the right things, but their actions do not follow what they say.

I'm also upset with seeing quotes like this in the media: "Skiing and snowboarding continue to grow in popularity in Western Washington and beyond." As if there's not a reason for it. I can tell you the reason visits are up - Alterra and Vail are marketing machines! For instance, Alterra just announced a partnership with Chase Sapphire for all it's acquired mountains.

I do think Stevens Pass skiers, and skiers at other resorts, were able to put some pressure on Vail and effect some changes this season. Am I the only one who thinks we shouldn't stay silent? That our voices need to be heard?

I'm also not aware of what pro skiers and others in the industry think of the corporate buyouts? I feel like we were all waiting to see how it would play out - and now we know it's badly... But is the industry attached to these two companies?

 

[SmuggsSkier]

100% agree with @SallyCat. The best resort partner supporters of Unlikely Riders (group promoting snow sports accessibility for BIPOC Vermonters) have all been independently owned/managed: Bolton Valley, Cochran’s Ski Area, Middlebury Snow Bowl, Jay Peak and Craftsbury Outdoor Center.

I live in Vermont and had never heard of Unlikely Riders. Thanks for posting about this group.

 

[SmuggsSkier]

All the discussions about Vail (I'm an Epic pass holder) make me even more committed to skiing at independent ski areas. I work at one so that's not too hard but I'll be making an effort to ski at others as well (e.g., Mad River Glen, Jay Peak).

 

[NWSkiGirl]

All the discussions about Vail (I'm an Epic pass holder) make me even more committed to skiing at independent ski areas. I work at one so that's not too hard but I'll be making an effort to ski at others as well (e.g., Mad River Glen, Jay Peak).

I think that's the way to go!

 

[marzNC]

All the discussions about Vail (I'm an Epic pass holder) make me even more committed to skiing at independent ski areas. I work at one so that's not too hard but I'll be making an effort to ski at others as well (e.g., Mad River Glen, Jay Peak).

Note that MRG, Jay Peak are on the Indy Pass. Have you looked at the list of locations for Indy?

 

[ilovepugs]

Note that MRG, Jay Peak are on the Indy Pass. Have you looked at the list of locations for Indy?

MRG is not on the Indy Pass. I doubt they ever will be. MRG is very restrictive of the number of tickets it sells.