Who Do I Need to See?

[Kano]

A boot guy, or an instructor?

Or someone else entirely?

Second day out today, a beautiful day to ski! It was really fun today -- Sunday was a bit of a struggle as my body remembered, but today, it came back, and maybe more!

I ski on K2 True Luvs, 153 length, and I've got new boots this year, that I think are a pretty near perfect fit -- but there's something I noticed today, that I should figure out how to fix.

The best description I can think of is that there's pressure on the inner edge of my left calf at the top of the boot, kind of like I'm leaning into it. It's not there all the time. I THINK it's just while the left ski is the weighted one, but maybe it's while it's the unweighted one. That's probably important information, and I'll pay extra attention when I ski on Thursday to narrow it down. It's NOT when I'm stationary, or clomping around the house, I know that!

As I told DH on the way home this afternoon, it's something I'd like to fix, but I don't know where to start. It could be as simple as my two legs are shaped differently and the boot just hits differently on the left than the right, but it doesn't feel like that. More like something I'm doing -- but is it me, or is it the "hardware" putting me in an odd position making me do it?

Where do I start with this? I'm guessing it will help to have someone who really knows what to look for to watch me ski? What/who do I ask for?

Kano

 

[Native Vail Gal]

I'd go to a boot guy as a start.

 

[MaineSkiLady]

Agreed. Off the top of my head, sounds like it could be alignment. Find a place where you can get it checked (any good ski shop). I've heard good things about the new ALINE process, though I've yet to try it. What kind of footbeds do you have: custom? Stock? Might be as simple as a cuff/cant adjustment. Good luck, keep us posted.

 

[Kano]

Thank you, ladies!

Custom footbeds, MSL.

So, I think I should ski Thursday yet, and figure out just what I'm asking my boot guys about, yes? There are a couple of other questions I have for them, but they're minor, "what's this feature" type questions that don't merit their own visit to the shop.

Kano

 

[perma-grin]

Hi Kano,
Is it contact, pressure or is it pain? How many hours do you have on the boots? Is it general or one specific point? Did you try adjusting the tongue against your shin? Tongues are aysmetrical to more closely echo the shape of you shin. Also pay attention when tightening your powerstrap that you aren't trapping your tongue to high up and out of position. The tongue should always follow the line of your shin and ankle joint. Try the power strap under trick. On the other hand it could be your ski mechanics. When turning right you should have engagement on the right front-sides of both boot tongues. It should be active contact all the way down the right sides of the fronts of your shin bones ( or left depending on the turn). Is it contact or pain? If you are only getting contact on the right boot you could be collapsing into the turn crushing your right knee down and forward instead of tipping both both knees into the direction of the new turn. This also is usually accompanied by your hips being slightly behind your feet at the entrance of your turn. You need to be stacked to properly enter your turn. Hopefully it's just your tongue and know big deal to correct.

 

[Kano]

Perma-grin,

I've had the boots up on the mountain twice, for a total of about 6.5 hours of skiing.

The sensation is a contact/pressure, not painful and it's on the inside of my calf, not on the shin, so it's not related to the tongue of the boot at all.

I don't think I would ever have even thought to consider this an issue if it were on both legs, but it's only the one - left - leg, which makes me think there's something in my body mechanics perhaps that I should address. Either I'm built funky, or I do something funky!

Possibly related -- a couple of years ago, at the end of the season, I hurt that left calf muscle on that inside part of the leg (if it hadn't been the last day of the season, it would have been the last day of MY season) and it's shaped differently now. Last winter, the first few days of the season it was mighty sensitive to the cuff of the boot (the point of injury was right at the top edge of the boot), but after a while, I never noticed it again, and these boots don't "go there" exactly.

Thanks for taking an interest!

Kano

 

[perma-grin]

OMG!!!! ( I swear the first time I read that post it said shin!!) Lol! First I can't remember anything now I can't read! Plus this is my 3rd attempt at trying to reply to this post I'm having tecnical difficulties. Anyway back to you. What kind boot do you have? Is there a spoiler or partial plate on the rear cuff that you can remove? It is not unusual for one calf to be bigger than the other. Even if you haven't suffered an injury. I have a similar problem that I remedied by breaking the 2nd commandment from the bootfitters bible. Thou shall not put a heel lift inside the liner under the custom footbed.! (#1 being Thou shall always shell fit thy boots, and thy boots of thy customer.) Lol! I put a 1/16 heel lift ( grind on the sanding wheel) under my footbed it took care of my problem. It removed the unpleasant sensation caused by my muscle puhing onto point of injury. About 6 yrs ago I had a horse go over on my leg, my Iron went into the lower part of my leg, right at the boot top. It is truly amazing how much damage 1200lbs of horse can do! Anyway I couldn't stand anything touching that spot ( still cant) not even my sock top squeezing the muscle up into it from below. The top of the boot cuff is intolerable against it. The best solution was to get the cuff away from that spot. Resist the temptation to use a thicker heel lft. It can cause all kinds of problems! Remember less is more when boot fitting. A little change can go along way. As long as you aren't making any way wicked permant altering of the boots it doesn't hurt to experiment on your own. Good luck.

 

[Kano]

We all have days like that Perma-grin!

The boots are Lange Exclusive 100. Sadly, I don't have any idea if they've got those things you mention -- and maybe worse to admit, I don't know what they are????

Your heel lift experiment -- add a skosch inside the liner, which as I understand will lift the heel a little bit to move where the top of the liner hits my leg, yes?

Can you suggest something to use for this experiment if I want to try it out tomorrow?

Kano

 

[perma-grin]

Hi Kano,
sorry that i didn't get back with you until now. I went to bed early. I don't remember that model having a spoiler, so plan B. those boots should have a small heel lift under the heel of the liner stuck to the foot board if memory serves. While that may aid in some forward lean it won't help with the issue of changing the way it hits your calf to boot top. If you take the liner out of your boot use a small flash light to see if your boot fitter stuck the heel lift on the foot board for you. It is usually black or dark grey dense foam, or hard plastic with a sticky side down. (If it's not there it is proably still in the box.) If it is in there see if you can get it peeled of of the bootboard then lift up your footbed and stick it in under it inside of your liner. If it isn't in either place you can cut a heel lift from meat packaging foam ( I wash it first) cut it to the shape of the heel portion of your footbed double it up to the desired height and duct tape it together. You can also use card board wrapped in duct tape in an emergency. These are both only temporary fixes because they break down so fast. If this gives you the relief that you are looking for then you will need to get a real heeel lift from a shop they come in in different sizes / heights( use the smaller thinner ones ). If you tell them that you are going to put it in your liner , I can guarentee that you will get no amount of crap about doing that. Ignore them. DO NOT STACK HEEL LIFTS IN YOUR LINER IF YOU HAVE THEM ATTACHED TO YOUR FOOTBOARD ALREADY! You can see them with the flash light. You don't want heel lifts on top of heel lifts. Womens boots and recreational boots usually have an increased ramp angle already and to much heel lift can cause a lot of balance issues and force you to drop your butt. i hope that helps. PM me if you need any thing else. I've got to be back at the hill by 8:00 A.M. again tomorrow but I'll try to check my email before I head out.

 

[Kano]

Hi Kano,
sorry that i didn't get back with you until now.

And it's taken me until now! It was the snow kept me from this!

I went to bed early. I don't remember that model having a spoiler, so plan B. those boots should have a small heel lift under the heel of the liner stuck to the foot board if memory serves. While that may aid in some forward lean it won't help with the issue of changing the way it hits your calf to boot top. If you take the liner out of your boot use a small flash light to see if your boot fitter stuck the heel lift on the foot board for you. It is usually black or dark grey dense foam, or hard plastic with a sticky side down. (If it's not there it is proably still in the box.) If it is in there see if you can get it peeled of of the bootboard then lift up your footbed and stick it in under it inside of your liner.

When I bought the boots, we determined that it should have a half inch heel lift in it. Without it -- or with the 1/4" lift, my heel kind of floated in the boot. It was in its pocket, but didn't really contact the footbed...

(right leg could have done with the 1/4" lift, but left needed the 1/2". both got 1/2" to keep boots similar as possible to start with)

DO NOT STACK HEEL LIFTS IN YOUR LINER IF YOU HAVE THEM ATTACHED TO YOUR FOOTBOARD ALREADY! You can see them with the flash light. You don't want heel lifts on top of heel lifts.

But I could swap the placement on this one okay for a test?

Womens boots and recreational boots usually have an increased ramp angle already and to much heel lift can cause a lot of balance issues and force you to drop your butt. i hope that helps. PM me if you need any thing else. I've got to be back at the hill by 8:00 A.M. again tomorrow but I'll try to check my email before I head out.

Got a couple of days before I ski again now -- no hurry!

I've always had trouble with my butt -- I've noticed that thinking about where I'm putting it is helping in general. Last year, I concentrated on uncurling my toes, and now that I've got that habit broken, it's nice to have a new thing to work on.

Further observation today leads me to think that it may be the old injury complaining about this early season skiing again. Maybe the cuff of the boot is hitting closer to the "damaged spot" than I thought, but along with that, there's definitely something different going on with my left leg than my right.

Time to make an appointment with my boot folk for an alignment check?

Kano

 

[perma-grin]

Hi Kano, yes you can swap them out for experiment sake. For me personally a 1/2 inch is way to much but everyone is different. Sometimes that pushes your instep up to high and cuts off circultion to your toes. I'm a little curious as to why they would sell you a boot that had to have a 1/2 inch of lift just to get you into it. Are you very short knee to ankle? Had the boot choice been a long process and this was the best option open to you? I do like the Langes though. I think that in general there upper end boots are very edgy and responsive with a nice rebond. Don't you already have a custom foot bed, did they check your cuff cant when they did the foot beds for your boots? Usually they will set you up in your boot with your footbeds and adjust the cuff cant with a plumb bob from the center point of the mass of your knee. A lot of skiers pronate or suppinate, your foot bed should help compensate for this to align you more properly in your boots.
I would also have a friend watch me as I skied (video taping would be awesome) to see if when I enter my new turn that I am staying stacked, hips lined up over my feet. A lot of recreational skiers let their feet slightly lead them down the hill. This is a bad thing. Balance and stance are the two most important things in skiing it is hard to have one without the other. If your feet are ahead of the rest of your body (even slightly) then you will not be balanced in your turns. Try switching your heel lifts and see what happens. You've got nothing to lose. Most of boot fitting is the process of elimination anyway. But definitly have a friend watch you ski, or better yet video you. (from front back and side angles) A picture is worth a thousand words. I hope your having good snow!!! We have a rain snow mix right now, conditions have been character building for students! Let me know what happens.

 

[Kano]

Hi Kano, yes you can swap them out for experiment sake. For me personally a 1/2 inch is way to much but everyone is different. Sometimes that pushes your instep up to high and cuts off circultion to your toes. I'm a little curious as to why they would sell you a boot that had to have a 1/2 inch of lift just to get you into it. Are you very short knee to ankle?

Hmmm, now I'm curious! I wonder, since it was just the left leg that needed that little something to connect the way the right leg was connecting, if maybe it's the calf issue that kept my left heel feeling a tad bit "floaty" in the pocket? Maybe it was missed? I didn't notice the calf until I was in motion for a couple of hours, and not the kind of motion that I was in during the fitting process...

Had the boot choice been a long process and this was the best option open to you?

Can't say that it was a long process. It's possible that this is not the BEST boot choice for me -- I didn't try every boot in Boise, which may have been wrong, but I trust the shop, and trusted the way my feet felt in the boots I tried. I also did not expect the fit or the work we did that day to result in perfection. I anticipated a bit of skiing in them to find what still needed some tweaking.

I do like the Langes though. I think that in general there upper end boots are very edgy and responsive with a nice rebond.

That sounds good! I did want to be sure to get myself a boot that would perform better than the last pair.

Don't you already have a custom foot bed, did they check your cuff cant when they did the foot beds for your boots? Usually they will set you up in your boot with your footbeds and adjust the cuff cant with a plumb bob from the center point of the mass of your knee. A lot of skiers pronate or suppinate, your foot bed should help compensate for this to align you more properly in your boots.

Yes, I do have custom foot beds -- they're from the old boots, but were recently done. We didn't do any canting that day, which didn't surprise me any, since I'm still learning so much about how they fit and should fit! Shouldn't be an issue to go back in and work with them on that, aside from perhaps finding the time!

I would also have a friend watch me as I skied (video taping would be awesome) to see if when I enter my new turn that I am staying stacked, hips lined up over my feet.

Stacked -- not me! I've never been properly stacked!

Video, there's video, not so much for critiquing as for entertaining mom, who's stuck in the house, off her feet for a few weeks. SHE thinks it's awesome, I know better. Now I've started looking at it to critique, and And I thought I was doing some of my "good" skiing at that moment! Like I told Dad, well, most of the time I don't exactly suck -- but, considering what I just deleted about balance that goes with stacking, no WONDER I keep scaring myself!

You know, speaking of butts again -- does this bad stack of mine have anything to do with that my feet seem to keep migrating forward in my boots?

Try switching your heel lifts and see what happens. You've got nothing to lose. Most of boot fitting is the process of elimination anyway.

I will do this! I can pretty much hardly wait for Sunday morning! I'll include the 1/4" pair of lifts in the experimenting -- they are still in the box!

But definitly have a friend watch you ski, or better yet video you. (from front back and side angles) A picture is worth a thousand words.

Oh boy, isn't THAT the truth! I have to say, though, that 30 second clip for mom has been very good for me!

I hope your having good snow!!! We have a rain snow mix right now, conditions have been character building for students! Let me know what happens.

Oh my! Good snow! "officially" they said seven inches today -- and there's been about half an inch since they cleared the marker tonight -- it looked like more than seven to me, but maybe some of that was before midnight last night? And it's cold, so powder -- it's amazing that ten days ago there was almost nothing up there, and five days ago they could open the whole mountain, and now there's almost double that! This has been a GREAT week to have lots of opportunities to ski!

Thanks so much perma-grin!

 

[Kano]

Hmmm, didn't find the 1/4" lifts in the box like I thought -- but -- shifting the left one to in the liner made a huge difference, and I think I'll pick up some 1/4" lifts on my way to work tomorrow -- folded paper (trail map) shows me that the smaller lift may well do the trick, since no lift at all left me with the floaty feeling I had with the 1/4" lift at first, and the folded paper between liner and footbed fixed that floaty thing and it would be interesting to see if that cures the chilly toes as well!

Thanks again for your suggestions, even though they're keeping me up tonight!

Kano

 

[perma-grin]

Kano, definitely try the 1/4 inch first. When lifts are inside the lining they change the way the liner fits your foot and leg a lot more. Particularly your ankles. A 1/2 may put you up to high and cause irritation to your ankles and nevicular bone. Plus I really feel that that to much height limits your abilty to open and close your ankles it can really advesrly effect your fore/aft balance. ( Although some women really do need that much height.) Were you shell fit for these boots? And you should go back to the shop and ask them if they could adjust your cuff cant that could be causing that sensation. I just assumed they did that when they fit the boots to your footbeds. My Bad! Your foot bed aligns what is happenining with the bottom of your foot. The cant ( which really isn't a cant but a cuff alignment tool)should be adjusted acordingly to help facilitate your foot rolling the ski onto a new edge. Sometimes though that migrating feeling is a sock footbed covering issue. I had a footbed once that we had to change the top covering material because it was very slippery with the socks I wore. That is a very unstable feeling. The migration that I had was less than nothing but the sensation was unsettling. I always seek a firm connection with my arch and my footbed.(firm not crushing!) Less movement in your boot gives you more control to aid in in your boot being more responsive to your foot and ankle movements ( tipping and flexing). That is why as you go up the food chain of boots the "last" (width and volume thru the fore foot) become progressively narrower, the shell beds and liners thinner and denser. Hense a boot say in a 25.5 mondo (roughly ladies 8 1/2) in a recreational race boot will feel much smaller and tighter on your foot than in an entry level boot (of the same size) that is built for comfort. Your boot while not being race are still in the upper end of the food chain. Sorry for rambling on again, but I goota get out of here or I'll be late for my people at 11:30! Have fun tomorrow!!

 

[Kano]

1/4" lifts in car waiting patiently for me to head home from work!

Now, before I stick 'em in there, can one be in liner under the footbed and one on footboard under the liner, or should they be the same?

The other question I have is this -- they fit "the Jeannie Thoren way" at the shop I bought these boots from. Now I don't have anything against her ideas -- the presentation she did made a huge amount of sense, and that they use her methods brought me back to their store. BUT, they automatically popped in the 1/4" lift, without having me try the boot/liner without it. After playing last night, I'm not entirely sure I need it at all -- aside from what you've shown me it can do for the left foot/leg in that boot, inside the liner.

So to actually get to the question -- is it a bad idea to put a lift in only one boot without specifically measuring to see that there are length discrepancies to warrant it? The determination that the 1/2" under the liner lift helped the left foot contact the bed was what motivated the increase on the right boot -- to keep things even. Is it better to keep things even until at some point I am told it's not by someone with rulers and whatever who is more experienced than I am?

(does that question even make sense?)

Kano

 

[perma-grin]

I would stick them ( heel lifts) in the same place, and in both boots be consistant that way you're comparing apples with apples. I think Jeanie is more apout finding your own personal balance not just a quick generic fix. An easy way to find the right height for your balance is to enlist the aid of a friend for this. You will need a flat surface to stand on and a magazine. In your bare feet stand and flex your ankles (bend them like you would do in your ski boots.) Have your friend open the magazine and slide (lets say for discussion sake) 35 pages under your heel. Does that thickness give you a more balanced stable feeling or do you need to add more pages? Or do you feel tippy and need to take a few pages away? You want to seek the height you feel the most balanced with. When I get to the height of page thickness that I feel the most balanced with, that becomes the thickness that I grind my heel lift to. So you should measure that thickness of the amount of pages with a ruler so you have the correct height reference. Jeanie use to sell the heel lifts that you could grind on a grinding wheel. Some people interpet the things that Jeanie does as cookie cutter fittting, it's not. She has a basic tried and true fomula that she starts with. Working her way through the program thru the process of elimination. She can eliminate somethings because she has so much experience with boot fitting and ski balancing. She also understands why she is doing it and how it will effect your skiing, and if you ever get to do an on snow clinic you will under stand it even more. I'm not an all or nothing kind of gal but I do know that a lot of things that she has done have helped me in my personal skiing. On the other hand I have some very close female friends that adding heel lifts to their boots really caused some problems and one has went back to flat, the other to lifting from under the toes to increase her ankle flex. I guess what I'm saying is the same thing that works for me may not work for you, but with the exception of trying something dangerous to you or damaging to your boots it never hurts to experiment. For example when I was doing my USSA stuff the toe ramping was hugh so I took out my heel lifts an gave the toe ramping a try. Hated it! :( But it did make me realize that when I got into tough snow I curled my toes under, I was never really aware of this before I mean I would get cramps in the archs of my feet and just assumed it was from my boots being to tight, but if you clench your toes for a period of time ( even without boots on) you get those same cramps. I've since learned to pull my toes to the top of my boots ( when things are freaking me out)to help keep my ankles flexed and my feet underneath me. Without experimentation you never learn anything new. I hope that I didn't just muddy the water for you. Your brain knows how to innately keep your body in balance It does it every single day without us giving it a second thought. Give your body less resistance to doing what it already innately knows how to do. Have fun tomorrow.

 

[Kano]

I would stick them ( heel lifts) in the same place, and in both boots be consistant that way you're comparing apples with apples.

Right boot had to be under the lining, rather than in -- bad pain with it matching what we're doing with the left boot! The "arch" buckle couldn't be loose enough when I had it in the liner. This was not the case in the left boot -- good thing too! I know in the house is a whole different thing than on the mountain, but if it doesn't work in here, I can't see it working out there!

I guess what I'm saying is the same thing that works for me may not work for you, but with the exception of trying something dangerous to you or damaging to your boots it never hurts to experiment.

But it did make me realize that when I got into tough snow I curled my toes under, I was never really aware of this before I mean I would get cramps in the archs of my feet and just assumed it was from my boots being to tight, but if you clench your toes for a period of time ( even without boots on) you get those same cramps. I've since learned to pull my toes to the top of my boots ( when things are freaking me out)to help keep my ankles flexed and my feet underneath me.

:D I know curled toes! "Toes up" has been one of my self-talks for years -- even on the well-groomed bunny hill, first thing in the morning I pretty much just figured it was silly --- didn't know it actually could do some good!

Without experimentation you never learn anything new. I hope that I didn't just muddy the water for you.

Oh heck no -- no muddy water here! I'm delighted with all I'm learning this season already!

Your brain knows how to innately keep your body in balance It does it every single day without us giving it a second thought. Give your body less resistance to doing what it already innately knows how to do. Have fun tomorrow.

Sounds like what I was telling DH the other day -- apparently, I had him convinced I was skiing happily down the hill right after lunch. First run after a break in a warm place has always been a bugger for us -- body seems to decide we had quit for the day, you know?

We laughed about it and wondered how others do it on the way home. Anyway, I explained to him that the only way I got down that hill was to talk myself down it. I lectured myself all the way down! "Come on body, you know how to do this" and "Relax and ski like you know how!"

Fortunately, that worked for me -- I could have kept skiing several runs after lunch, but not DH, he couldn't get past the "sat down" feeling, and it was time to go home, darn it!

Sounds like we're going to have a bunch more freshies in the morning, and some during the day too, so I'm looking forward to lots of fun!

You have a great day too!


(oops, I rambled again -- it's something I'm good at!)

Kano

 

[Kano]

Kudos, Perma-grin!

Your suggestion worked beautifully for me today!

Not only did the lift inside the liner do the trick for the calf pressure, changing to the 1/4" lifts instead of the 1/2" made it easier for my feet to stay back in the boots -- so I wasn't adjusting the buckles tighter through the day.

Toes were still chilly in my "hot chilly's" socks, so next trip I'll try the old reliable Smartwools. I didn't want to use those today, since I wondered if it was the lift height/buclke tightening making them chilly. So next change next trip!

It was a good day, despite clouds and wind. I played with staying a bit more forward on my skis, since I've always tended to be back a bit too far. I can't tell just how well I did with it, but I wasn't "tired" when DH was, and could have skiied several more runs, I think! So, I must have done something different/right!

(silly guy -- I went to the lodge for a five minute break, and he decided I was quitting for the day. I don't know where he got that idea -- when he radioed while I was on my way in, I told him I was going inside "for a few minutes." Yup, HE crapped out again today! He did say on the way home that he was secretly hoping I would sleep really late this morning!)

Kano

 

[perma-grin]

Awesome! Glad it Helped!

 

[sibhusky]

I was just wondering if the boot cuff cant got knocked during the summer? Have you checked that? Normally there is a screw on either side of the ankle that gets loosened, then retightened, once the boot guy aligns the boot to your leg. If the boots get smacked at any point, this could shift. Even though the heel lift helped, I think you should look at this.