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Question: What would boots with too much forward lean cause?

litterbug

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I asked an instructor who told me that this boot is putting me in a "better position".
My take from all the forum posts about boots is that they throw off your stance, and if your stance was great you shouldn't be in constant agony unless your technique is way off. If the instructor said your stance was great, there's something wrong with the boot. If she said your stance or technique was the problem, more lessons for you!

Changes in my boots have strongly affected my quad and calf burn; one required so much effort to stay out of the back seat that I had to stop constantly to rest, and standing still in them was agony (heel lifts, completely inappropriate for me but he didn't even tell me he'd added them!). Anyhow, if you have access to the fitter who sold you the boots go to them; if not, you'll need to get someone really skilled to figure out what's up.
 

stilllearning

Diva in Training
Thank you so much for the reply. Yes, I do have access to the fitter and will go back and see what can be done. Other than the burning quads they are very comfortable but I am pitched quite far forward so that I cannot stand up straight in them. My old boots are quite upright and too large for me. If I had had that quad pain when I originally started skiing, I doubt I would have continued!! I also do not think it is a physical fitness issue. Hopefully I can get it figured out one way or another!
 

Terri Gorder

Diva in Training
So my question is if my boots have too much forward lean in them what is this likely to do to my skiing?

I'm asking as I think my boots have a lot of forward lean (they are Lange Comp 100 from 2006ish). There is no way I can straighten my legs out with my boots on without falling forward, which I have read is a sign of too much forward lean.

When skiing I feel like I am having a hard time keeping my weight forward on the balls of my feet and therefore hindering my ability to really try and carve the skis :(. Is it the boots or is it just me :noidea:

Of course I could just be making up excuses for my bad skiing :redface:. I won't be offended if that is the case :D
 

Obrules15

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
So my question is if my boots have too much forward lean in them what is this likely to do to my skiing?
This is from another thread I posted on but I thought it apt given @Terri Gorder just bumped this thread.

Being too far back on your heels after heel lifts can be a symptom of too much heel lift, too much boot forward lean, too much binding ramp delta, or too much boot ramp angle, or some combination of the four. It's not what those things do, it just means it's too much. Fixing any one can fix the problem expecially if you understand the setup.

Ramp angle leans you forward and moves your center of mass forward with out changing your boot geometry. It works well for people who's femur/lower leg proportions are high and have short torsos and relatively long femurs. Too much and you will reactively lean back. Can cause increased quad burn.

Bindings are all different and there is no standard and no standard reporting. Tyrollia PRX bindings have 8mm of Ramp Delta, PRD have 5mm. The bindings (from another thread) that one of our members was struggling with had 7mm. The old volkl bio-logic setup gave negative ramp delta. Knee bindings give you the option of 3mm or 6mm of Ramp Delta. New women's Atomic Vantage skis have + ramp delta of unknown quantity.

Heel lifts lean you forward but bend your foot at the ball and open up your ankle joint and cause you to be relatively more upright in whatever boot you are in so they work well in people with limited dorsiflexion. Too much you will reactively lean back. If you have a high arch they can cause increased pain because they decrease the available space for your arch.

Reverse binding ramp delta or toe shims can help center people who need heel lifts for the increased dorsiflexion or are in boots with too much forward lean and are therefore sitting back or are in some of these bindings with too much + RA.

Lange Boots have 12 degrees of forward lean and they advertise a natural stance, Head Boots have 16 degrees of forward lean. They both have 4 degrees of ramp angle in the boot. Dodge boots have variable forward lean. I don't know about other brands. Spoilers can be added to increase forward lean.

Too much for your particular anatomy or geometry can push you too far forward, cause you to reactively lean back, and decrease the available dorsiflexion you can access in your ankle. Too little can keep you centered behind too far back and require too much boot flex to move forward.

Solid sole boots can usually be modified to adjust ramp delta by about +/- 8mm. Comfort soles can usually be adjusted +/- 3mm. Higher the forward lean more the quad burn.

Boots that are too big will decrease the amount your leg is leaning forward, no matter what the actual cuff angle is. A tightly buckled cuff will make the angle more upright as well, as compared to a loose cuff. As liners pack out and the cuffs are tightened down it will pull your lower leg straighter relative to where it was before the packout.

It would be nice if we could also keep track of what the different skis/binding manufacturers were doing so if someone change a setup and had a problem we had a database here where they could look up their skis, bindings, or boots. Every bit of information I provided above was acquired the hard way. It would be nice if we could pool data for future use.

What I wrote was acquired over my years of trying to fix me, so is specific to things I've used. What other data do members have that might be helpful?
 
Last edited:

Obrules15

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Ramp Delta (Delta = Difference) is the difference between the height of the toe and heel pieces on a binding or the difference between toe and heel height of a boot.

+Ramp Delta is where the heel is higher than the toe

-Ramp Delta is where the toe is higher than the heel

Ramp Angle is the angle of your foot in comparison to the base of a boot (when talking about boots) or the angle of the boot in comparison to the ski when talking about bindings.

For a given BSL (Boot Sole Length) different deltas will cause different RA's
For a given delta, different BSL's will have different RA's
The shorter a BSL the higher the ramp angle for any given delta.
 

snoWYmonkey

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
The posts right before mine definitely explain the techy side of boot angles. No, a heel lift and a toe plate do not accomplish the same thing at all. I have had both at the same time.

I think that you may be on to something with the notion that the cuff is not snug enough. Tall and small feet definitely would be an issue that could lead to your knee projecting way out in front of your toes before you even flex the boot.

Which makes me wonder: how much are you able to flex, make the cuff of the boot move, when buckled tight? Maybe, though doubtful, the boot is too soft. Make sure you get a tall cuff the next time. Some boots have adjustable lean angles too.

Just doing the toe plate lift, will not necessarily solve the problem as you will still be equally flexed relative to the foot angle, just all of it tilted backwards.

May I ask if the cover photo of you is old or newer? I wonder, though it is hard to tell from one static picture alone, because you appear quite a back aft, or back, with no visible forward lean into the front of the boot. This would definitely lead to massive quad burn.

It would be great for you to maybe go and rent a quality women's boot, know for a more upright stance for a day. Less expensive than buying new ones, and may help you get to the root of the issue.

Bonne chance.
 

SquidWeaselYay

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
This is from another thread I posted on but I thought it apt given @Terri Gorder just bumped this thread.

Being too far back on your heels after heel lifts can be a symptom of too much heel lift, too much boot forward lean, too much binding ramp delta, or too much boot ramp angle, or some combination of the four. It's not what those things do, it just means it's too much. Fixing any one can fix the problem expecially if you understand the setup.

Ramp angle leans you forward and moves your center of mass forward with out changing your boot geometry. It works well for people who's femur/lower leg proportions are high and have short torsos and relatively long femurs. Too much and you will reactively lean back. Can cause increased quad burn.

Bindings are all different and there is no standard and no standard reporting. Tyrollia PRX bindings have 8mm of Ramp Delta, PRD have 5mm. The bindings (from another thread) that one of our members was struggling with had 7mm. The old volkl bio-logic setup gave negative ramp delta. Knee bindings give you the option of 3mm or 6mm of Ramp Delta. New women's Atomic Vantage skis have + ramp delta of unknown quantity.

Heel lifts lean you forward but bend your foot at the ball and open up your ankle joint and cause you to be relatively more upright in whatever boot you are in so they work well in people with limited dorsiflexion. Too much you will reactively lean back. If you have a high arch they can cause increased pain because they decrease the available space for your arch.

Reverse binding ramp delta or toe shims can help center people who need heel lifts for the increased dorsiflexion or are in boots with too much forward lean and are therefore sitting back or are in some of these bindings with too much + RA.

Lange Boots have 12 degrees of forward lean and they advertise a natural stance, Head Boots have 16 degrees of forward lean. They both have 4 degrees of ramp angle in the boot. Dodge boots have variable forward lean. I don't know about other brands. Spoilers can be added to increase forward lean.

Too much for your particular anatomy or geometry can push you too far forward, cause you to reactively lean back, and decrease the available dorsiflexion you can access in your ankle. Too little can keep you centered behind too far back and require too much boot flex to move forward.

Solid sole boots can usually be modified to adjust ramp delta by about +/- 8mm. Comfort soles can usually be adjusted +/- 3mm. Higher the forward lean more the quad burn.

Boots that are too big will decrease the amount your leg is leaning forward, no matter what the actual cuff angle is. A tightly buckled cuff will make the angle more upright as well, as compared to a loose cuff. As liners pack out and the cuffs are tightened down it will pull your lower leg straighter relative to where it was before the packout.

It would be nice if we could also keep track of what the different skis/binding manufacturers were doing so if someone change a setup and had a problem we had a database here where they could look up their skis, bindings, or boots. Every bit of information I provided above was acquired the hard way. It would be nice if we could pool data for future use.

What I wrote was acquired over my years of trying to fix me, so is specific to things I've used. What other data do members have that might be helpful?
I just found this and it has been a revelation. Thanks for the post!
 

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