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Question: What makes or breaks a lesson?

SkiBam

Angel Diva
I see instructors skiing down the hill with their student or students behind them sometimes, and they see nothing that way. They don't help anyone, they just ski down the slope. I wouldn't hire an instructor that does that.

I don't agree. Instructors DO see a lot of what's happening behind them (especially high-level ones who I swear have eyes in the back of their head!).

I've so often had students say that they love to follow – the instructor might be taking a line (tighter or wider turns) than they might not otherwise take, plus (hopefully) demoing proper form. Or going faster or slower than the student might go on their own. Or the student might be fearful about tackling terrain outside of their comfort zone; following an instructor, turn for turn, can often minimize the anxiety.

But I would agree you don't want to always have the instructor in the lead. Sometimes the instructor should follow or even ski alongside the student. I think there should be a nice mix.
 

ski diva

Administrator
Staff member
I'm a very visual learner and learn best by imitating, so I love to follow an instructor. Someone can explain something to me over and over ("engage this edge, bring that ski forward"), and it just doesn't do it like following. I think the best is a combination of following an instructor and having them watch you to provide feedback. That works best for me, anyway.
 

Skise

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
When I've taken a lesson, usually first I've been following the instructor, mimicing his movement and then after a while we have changed places so the instructor can properly see what I'm doing. Works for me.

What doesn't work is instructor saying "Follow me!" and then trying to outski me to wait for me at the bottom of the hill to see how I'm skiing. As an instructor you have to say if you want to do that. Otherwise nice obedient students kill themselves matching the speed :loco: No instructor has ever escaped me...:laugh:
 

snoWYmonkey

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
CMCM and Bounces Wooosh

Both of you have great points. I often see a lot from a quick head glance. Most instructors will early in the lesson have a look at the student, and determine a couple of issues they might want to work on with each person. When doing a drill with the students it is super important to see enough that we can give feedback on the drill performance. Other times, that quick glance while skiing in front will tell us how much the student has started to correct their issue. Chances are pretty slim that any other changes will happen every five minutes. Most changes in our skiing take a lesson to understand and a few days at best to truly incorporate in our movements.

That being said, I have skied with many people who are asking me every five minutes "how do I look now?". In those cases I will humour them and keep telling them as this is clearly what they want out of the lesson. The challenge then is that most of the time, nothing has changed, and it can become frustrating for all parties to keep hearing that more of a good thing is needed.

At times I have to lead the way, especially off piste as our particular mountain is huge and one wrong turn, in spite of giving students good directions, may mean mandatory chute skiing. Other times I know exactly where the line between icy snow and soft chalky snow is as I know where the sun never reaches.

When appropriate, I tell people where to ski to. Just as some learn from following the instructor, I learn a lot from skiing behind my student and imitating their turns. At other times it is critical to force the student to lead so they develop more independence.

Finally, and this is mostly for CMCM, I get about 40% of my students who never ski without an instructor and really mostly want a person to ski with and guide them around our mountain. This particular crowd would never rebook me if we stopped mid run to do drills or talk technique. They want to charge really hard all day and be taken to the best snow and avoid lift lines on powder days. Telling them which lines to pick would waste precious minutes of getting to the lift for more fresh lines. I try to teach them more discreetly while we ride the lift and then coach them by reminding them what the focus could be for a given run.

Hope that helps explain why in some cases it is appropriate to have an instructor in the front.

As for individual critique/feedback, even group lessons should have a lot of this assuming. Part of what the student is paying for is a skilled set of eyes. I love doing video with my students when time permits. It is such an eye opener.
 
C

CMCM

Guest
CMCM and Bounces Wooosh

Both of you have great points. I often see a lot from a quick head glance. Most instructors will early in the lesson have a look at the student, and determine a couple of issues they might want to work on with each person. When doing a drill with the students it is super important to see enough that we can give feedback on the drill performance. Other times, that quick glance while skiing in front will tell us how much the student has started to correct their issue. Chances are pretty slim that any other changes will happen every five minutes. Most changes in our skiing take a lesson to understand and a few days at best to truly incorporate in our movements.

That being said, I have skied with many people who are asking me every five minutes "how do I look now?". In those cases I will humour them and keep telling them as this is clearly what they want out of the lesson. The challenge then is that most of the time, nothing has changed, and it can become frustrating for all parties to keep hearing that more of a good thing is needed.

At times I have to lead the way, especially off piste as our particular mountain is huge and one wrong turn, in spite of giving students good directions, may mean mandatory chute skiing. Other times I know exactly where the line between icy snow and soft chalky snow is as I know where the sun never reaches.

When appropriate, I tell people where to ski to. Just as some learn from following the instructor, I learn a lot from skiing behind my student and imitating their turns. At other times it is critical to force the student to lead so they develop more independence.

Finally, and this is mostly for CMCM, I get about 40% of my students who never ski without an instructor and really mostly want a person to ski with and guide them around our mountain. This particular crowd would never rebook me if we stopped mid run to do drills or talk technique. They want to charge really hard all day and be taken to the best snow and avoid lift lines on powder days. Telling them which lines to pick would waste precious minutes of getting to the lift for more fresh lines. I try to teach them more discreetly while we ride the lift and then coach them by reminding them what the focus could be for a given run.

Hope that helps explain why in some cases it is appropriate to have an instructor in the front.

As for individual critique/feedback, even group lessons should have a lot of this assuming. Part of what the student is paying for is a skilled set of eyes. I love doing video with my students when time permits. It is such an eye opener.

I can see that from an instructor's point of view, you have a diverse population of students, all wanting different types of input. Maybe I've had too many disappointing instructors! I've had some who offered relatively little input, but took me to runs I was not good enough to do yet. I remember being taken to one run that nearly made me pass out in fright when I saw how steep and bumpy it was. The positive part of this was that I got myself down, didn't even fall, and thus proved to myself I could do it, but I can't say I learned anything else in terms of HOW to go down such a slope. That was 2 years ago and I haven't tried that run since, although I'm improved enough now that I will attempt it this season....if we ever get snow!

So I'm at a point where I want a certain degree of microanalysis from an instructor as I fine tune my technique. I'm sure some people like following an instructor and I can see a certain logic for that, it's just that I don't see it as much bang for my buck in a lesson. I may as well be skiing alone as it doesn't give me the degree of input I'm looking for at this point in time. :smile:
 

RuthB

Angel Diva
I'm a very visual learner and learn best by imitating, so I love to follow an instructor. Someone can explain something to me over and over ("engage this edge, bring that ski forward"), and it just doesn't do it like following. I think the best is a combination of following an instructor and having them watch you to provide feedback. That works best for me, anyway.

yes, this - I have had some great lessons and learned heaps from following instructors, one area that I have found this particularly useful in is learning to pick lines in bumps.
 

IceHeeler

Angel Diva
I use the same instructor each year, I think of it as a tune-up. The reason I chose him is my friend and I tele ski at extremely different abilities. (I have limited range of motion) This instructor is able to keep us both challenged, give separate advice to each of us, as well as common exercises to work on. Plus, he's a mellow guy and I always feel like a get a lot out of the lesson.

Biggest fail to me is large groups w/ under-qualified instructors. I don't think any beginner group should have 15 people in it. I took two beginner lessons when I started and both times it took people breaking down into tears before the instructor had any clue he wasn't being understood; despite multiple people asking for a better explanation. I've had far more good experiences than bad, but the bad ones remind me how scary skiing can be to someone who has never tried it. Large groups require very experienced instructors.

I always tell people to save the card of the instructor from their group lesson. If they liked him/her, they can book a private/semi-private with them at a later time.
 

snoWYmonkey

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Ice Heeler,

I know what you mean about large groups and newbie instructors...especially beginner lessons. I wish the most experienced instructors would take turns teaching beginners. I think this is where we stand to create new skier or loose them after one failed attempt. Such an important first taste of skiing.
 

apski

Certified Ski Diva
Ice Heeler,

I know what you mean about large groups and newbie instructors...especially beginner lessons. I wish the most experienced instructors would take turns teaching beginners. I think this is where we stand to create new skier or loose them after one failed attempt. Such an important first taste of skiing.

ABSOLUTELY true! If I hadn't had the best experience in my Learn to Ski day with an awesome instructor, I would not have stuck with it. I had an awful group lesson experience a few years after I started skiing and remember thinking to myself how grateful I was that instructor had not been my Learn to Ski guy!

I went on to take several private and semi-private lessons with my first instructor and he's absolutely the reason I continue to learn and love skiing!
 

abc

Banned
I agree with snoWYmonkey on the "not much changed in 5 minutes" part!

For newbies, there's probably some change every 1/2 hr. But at higher level, there's so much ingrained bad habits it takes multiple drills to correct them. I recall on a multi-day clinic, after a couple of "a little bit better" but "not quite there", the instructor simply change what we work on instead of keep on beating the same dead horse!

That's why I actually like group lessons. I get to reflect a bit after a run before asking for feedbacks. And sometimes, after a lot of drills, it's good to free ski a bit just to relax and refresh the brain!

I'd been in that rutt of "getting the most" out of a 90 minute group lesson. But eventually I realize cramming the 90 minuites with "instructions" doesn't really do much for me (and for many)! What I found a lot more useful is a block of few days, typically a clinic , where I have time to practice under supervision of a bunch of related skills. And do it for a few days to really burn it in!

Granted, I need time in between these clinics to just ski and enjoy the improvement. So I don't do them every year.
 

BackCountryGirl

Angel Diva
I wish the most experienced instructors would take turns teaching beginners. I think this is where we stand to create new skier or loose them after one failed attempt. Such an important first taste of skiing.

You are so right. Today on our magic carpet with their own groups of children 3 to 6 were at least 2 level 3s and 1 level 2. Part of our job is to model for new coaches. Part of our job is to make sure the newest skiers get it right from the outset.

I also want to address the "ability" split. No 2 skiers ever ski alike, so in reality, there's always a split in anything other than a private. Teaching the split is challenging, but can be really rewarding. Drills and tasks can be tweaked so that each skier gets something from the experience. And trust me, it ain't always all about skiing the gnarliest terrain. To learn something, anything, the terrain has to be mellow so that success is inevitable. It think it's all in how feedback and individual attention is delivered. When I teach adults, I love to use a circle ski so that I can ski along with each skier for a bit, or jump beside each skier as they wait their turn to ski.
 

Perty

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Though currently in Whistler, my main stomping ground has always been europe and France in particular. I was deeply underwhelmed by the ESF (Ecole du Ski Francais)when I was a beginner and abandoned group lessons after about 3 weeks of holidays.

Things that really made me feel I had wasted my money.

1. No-one told me (until I read it in a book) what makes a ski turn. Even though this was the early 90's, if an instructor had told me the physics that lay behind what we were doing, I would have been more able to picture it in my head. Telling a pupil why they are doing something really helps, otherwise it feels really random.

2. A "one size fits all" approach to teaching. Along the lines of "if this is week 3, I will be teaching this drill". Not every beginner needs to go through the text book one page at a time. I say this, not because it applied to me, but from skiing with friends more recently who immediately "get it", and can , with a few tips and hints, progress though the snow plough (wedge) phase within a couple of hours.

Things that make a lesson:

1. I do think that an instructor who can remember what it is like not to be able to ski can be more sympathetic. He or she can recall the thigh burning terror of standing at the top of a steep blue run, or the things that clicked when taking a lesson when she was struggling. However I am not dismissing people who virtually emerge from the womb on skis as being able to teach and teach well.

2. Understanding people's different learning styles. What works for person a, may not for person b. More experienced instructors get this. I loved the "kick the ball around the corner" metaphor that LY's instructor told her recently. It makes sense to me, and I think I can even guess what part of her technique he was trying to tackle. Here in the UK, I often come across links to a highly successful english instructor (Warren Smith) based in Verbier-he produces videos, runs his own ski school, and features on many websites. I watch them and feel utterly unenlightened at the end. It's important for the pupil not to feel the dummy in this situation-it's the nature of the instruction that isn't working.

3. Understand if someone gets scared!
 

bluebird

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
To much instruction and not enough skiing. I bailed on a lesson early just so I could get some skiing in.
 

apski

Certified Ski Diva
I love doing video with my students when time permits. It is such an eye opener.

I'll say! See the jacket in my profile pic? Turns out that black jacket and black helmet on slightly back-lit videotaped run made me look a LOT like Darth Vader. Our ski camp group was howling/crying with laughter so much that no one could focus on what the video revealed about my skiing until we'd watched a few times. And then someone was humming the Imperial March during the eventual instructor critique!
 

snoWYmonkey

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Apski,

That is brilliant. I know what you mean about the group laughing during video playback. I took a race camp and was in the slowest group with one other woman and a few guys. Our group's video was the last one after watching the really fast racers visiting from MN. She is the first to go and belts out "oh wow, that is so nice of you coaches to play it in slow motion for us!" We all about died laughing, because it was 100% real time. We were just that much slower than previous racers in our slow group.

Do you still wear that same combo? You need voice modification software in your neck gaiter for the full effect...oh and some sort of light saber!
 

altagirl

Moderator
Staff member
I agree with the people who want to know what we are doing and why. If I don't know how a drill actually applies to my skiing, I'm not particularly motivated, to be honest.

And I think that there should be a blend of "follow me so you can see what I'm doing" and "let me follow you to see what you're doing and offer feedback". Sure, some people learn better one way or the other, but I think even verbal learners benefit from a little bit of visual. If nothing else, you want to confirm that what you heard looks the way you thought it would, right?
 

apski

Certified Ski Diva
Apski,

Do you still wear that same combo? You need voice modification software in your neck gaiter for the full effect...oh and some sort of light saber!

hahahaha! Yes, I plan to reprise the costume/role this year as I have the same helmet and I love that Arcteryx jacket! Does flailing my ski poles around and breathing heavily at altitude evoke enough James Earl Jones for you?
 

SkiQT

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I have found my best lessons are when the instructor pushes me slightly out of my comfort zone.

For example, at the end of last year DH and I were only skiing greens; we took a lesson together and the instructor had us go down a blue. This gave me the confidence to try some more blues after the lesson.

The best instructors know how to bring the student to the next level.
 

litterbug

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
1. I do think that an instructor who can remember what it is like not to be able to ski can be more sympathetic. He or she can recall the thigh burning terror of standing at the top of a steep blue run, or the things that clicked when taking a lesson when she was struggling. However I am not dismissing people who virtually emerge from the womb on skis as being able to teach and teach well.

This. It's hard to remember what it was like not to know how to do anything we have done forever; I can't imagine not being able to hear a tune and be able to sing it, or not being able to harmonize. I know many people can't, and I know I learned it from my musical family, but I can't imagine how to teach it.

I can't tell you how many times I've tried to write a concise reply to this thread but can't because I always end up ranting, no matter how I try. Suffice it to say that lessons have been very frustrating, enough so that no matter how much I know I desperately need one and really, really want feedback on my form, I've been putting it off forever. Both the group lesson I took almost 2 years ago and the private I took last December were disappointments and left me feeling deeply discouraged about my skiing. Fortunately I'm stubborn and no one was going to put me off of skiing.

Now I've developed trust issues around boot fitters and ski instructors :loco: (though I wish I could get ahold of some instructors on this forum!). I know I'm generalizing from a tiny number of experiences. Maybe I just have too much time to think about it. :noidea:

There, that wasn't too bad a rant, was it?
 

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