Question: What makes or breaks a lesson?

[tinymoose]

YES!!! Instructors don't make a lot of money!!

Good to know before I take my first private. What's a good %?

 

[Jilly]

See here for some ideas:

https://www.theskidiva.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10656&highlight=tipping

 

[abc]

I think the tipping is acceptable for both group and private.

 

[snow addict]

I just honestly cannot afford private lessons. I try to sign up for groups during the week because they often end up being private anyway. I MIGHT spring for a private this year but the cost for lessons at Mammoth is exorbitant even for an hour. I figure I get more out of a few hours/half day "group" than one hour private. One hour is only enough for a couple runs and I need a LOT more than that!!

Anyway, to the OP, yes of course it's fun!! I do love how following an instructor or leading the way makes me forget about my speed and makes me just GO!

Group lessons run Monday - Friday meaning it's 5 half-days in a row if you sign up for this, or one school does 2 half-days Wednesday-Thursday for what they call here a "black league". Not entirely convenient. Private is either half-day or full day. No lessons by hours. I guess schools here are taylored to tourists who book week-long holidays. They usually arrive on Saturday, ski one or one and a half day (if they arrive sufficiently early) by themselves then join the school.

 

[SkiNana]

Good to know before I take my first private. What's a good %?

Because lessons are so high here, about 10% (maybe $40 for that $360 lesson) The high end visitors who always take a private, and always with their instructor tip more, I think, but then, they can afford it.
Big Sky has a program for locals here that runs about $428 for eight lessons (three hours each, in the same group, same instructor, all four weeks), more if you take six weeks. It boils down to about $50 a lesson (there's a resort tax of 3% in there) We generally give the instructor $100 for the two of us, or about 10% on ~$1000. DH vetoed doing it this year: now I realize why!

 

[snow addict]

One thing I'd like is a little attention paid to gear. I skied for 2 years on skis that were too short (so I was unstable) and boots that had too much forward lean (so I couldn't stand up). I took a TON of lessons during this time trying to improve and I didn't get anywhere. I know instructors aren't bootfitters, but I was actually told by one or two instructors that gear doesn't matter. I eventually got new skis and boots and almost cried when I figured out how much my old gear had held me back. It's really disappointing to me that the instructor that I used 6 weeks in a row for private lessons ($$$!!) never said hey, I see you are struggling with this same thing every week, let's talk about whether there could be something about your skis or boots.



I like this too.

Very often instructor have been skiing since they began to walk so for them gear 'doesn't matter'. I know skiers like that and they really don't care what they ski on. My friend skies anything on whichever ski she can rent cheaper and she uses her old rear-entry boots. These skiers just don't understand the importance of gear to peope who learned to ski much later in their lives. I checked out of curiousity programs of a few schools that prepare instructors for their exams and despite being very extensive they have nothing on gear whatsoever.

 

[Lilywhite]

Hi, I have had group lessons many times and either been the weakest (more usually) or the strongest, neither is much fun but I understand how hard this is to address having previously taught martial arts to children.

The best lesson I had where the instructor managed to keep us all interested and learning was when we were paired up practising mirror turning opposite our partner who was either signifigantly faster/slower/better/worse on gradually steeper slopes, we didnt realise how steep the slopes were as we were so busy matching tight turns and speed, I'm not sure my technique neccessarily improved leaps and bounds but my fear of steeps certainly did, possibly the most liberating lessons I have had.

Later that week I paid for a private lesson with the same instructor who really listened to what I wanted out of the lesson, then said right lead the way until the first hut and I'll see what your upto. He followed me down then picked apart my bad arm habits and shoulder leading, took me to an almost flat green run and did a few drills with and without poles then headed back to the red we had begun on and I could feel the difference.

I guess what I'm saying is we have 2 ears and 1 mouth for good reason and that BOTH instructor and pupil need to watch and listen and want to help/progress.

 

[PNWSkier]

Worst lesson that I ever had was when one skier was far below the rest of us in level (which in itself is ok, b/c I have been there) but the instructor spent most of his time working with that student. It got to the point where the rest of us sat around chatting while watching the other person's lesson. I think that it is important that the instructor at least attempt to spend equal time with every person.

Conversely, the best lesson I had was when I got really personal feedback even though we were in a group.

 

[snoWYmonkey]

Christy,

Yikes I am so sorry an instructor told you that about your gear or gear in general. I am sometimes surprised by the differences even novice skiers can feel when changing models of skis and/or boots. You are right, it is hard for us to know what is going on inside a boot. That being said, I can easily spot a ski that is not tracking right because of an oversized boot, and I cringe when I see some of my students come out on a powder day with their 15 year old narrow straight boards and wonder why the rest of us are not working so hard...while angrily refusing to try the fatter boards.

Trust your instincts. We are only guides, and the true master can only be the student herself who is the one standing in her boots doing the actual skiing. Question your guide. Maybe your answers will differ, maybe not, either way you will have learned something. Glad you are on appropriate gear now.

Poor boot fit is truly a cause for sorrow on the slopes.

 

[snoWYmonkey]

Snow addict,

I am surprised that gear was not covered in the programs you looked at. I know that PSIA the national certification agency seems to have at least one article each time its magazine is published that addresses gear needs and helps keep us current on changes in the industry.

I wish you could have listened in on our boot discussion in the locker room today. We were bemoaning our boot fits, lack of experienced cant specialists and debating which CO expert to travel to (two states away for us!).

I know very few instructors at my home mountain who are not obsessive about the ramp angles, forward lean, lateral stiffness, cant and cuff alignments of their boots...and then some.

 

[Lilywhite]

Snowymonkey, I have either sent you 2 p.m's or none! Not sure if I figured it out !Let me know x

 

[abc]

Back to the original question...

What makes the lesson is probably the same: fun, individual attention and ultimately, improvements.

But there maybe more than one way to BREAK a lesson, like a huge ability gap or too much talking etc.

To me, the main problem with ability gap is actually just a poor management of the group. I was once in a "group" lesson where the instructor focus on ONE skier within a group, of just THREE! I mean, how can you be in a group of 3 and still not get much attention???

Sure, there's probably an ability gap. But that's for the instructor to manage. He instead just work with the best one in the group, totally ignore the rest of the group 1/2 hr into a 2 hr group lesson! And only occasionally, when pressed, said something like "do the same". No individual feed back except for one.

This was at Taos. They had a big reputation for being a good ski schools. Needless to say, I had not gone back the rest of the week I was there. And as a small part of the reason, I hadn't been back to Taos again...

No, the instructor didn't get a tip from me.

 

[RuthB]

To me, the main problem with ability gap is actually just a poor management of the group.

This is a key facet of a good lesson for me - realistically people in groups are likely to have different strengths and weaknesses in their skiing. One of the best series of lessons I have had as an adult was a ski week in Canada. I gifted a ski week to my husband for christmas, but knew he would only do the ski week if I did it too. We were very different levels and I didn't expect us to be in the same group, but because of low numbers we were. There were four of us in the ski week, but the particular instructor was very skilled at giving each of us things to work on and think about with each drill in each terrain type and all four of us ended up better skiers at the end of the week and we all enjoyed it. So it can be done, but it takes skill and management on behalf of the instructor.

Interesting is that no one has mentioned much about learning styles. Someone mentioned ski alot and quit talking. But some people learn by describing aka talk and some learn by watching. The end result is the same but the process differs for the instructor.

This is another thing that has separated the great from the ordinary for me. The great instructors for me have been ones that have been able to covey their point in multiple ways and have recognised when what they are trying to convey isn't going in and changed the delivery (might be rephrasing, might be using a different drill, demonstration etc). My son's school teacher told him in a parent teacher interview, that if he, or others in the class, weren't grasping what she was teaching them, then it was because she needed to change how she taught something to him, others, the class. This is true for ski instructors as well.

 

[TheSnowBunny]

I've only taken one group lesson in the last 30 years of skiing. I ski about 15 days a year (though I did just move 500 miles closer to the mountains largely so I could ski more - and also to be closer to family). So I'm probably not your target audience, so big disclaimer on my comments... Besides price (which is a big factor) my adverse nature to lessons is because I haven't been too impressed with what I've seen of students / instructors when I'm on the hill. Poor group management, mis-matched skill levels of the students which seem to set some students up for not getting much out of there time/money, lack of actual ski time (lots of talking) and a few other grips listed above.

That being said, what I did like the one time I took a lesson was the instructors ability to point out to each individual points to improve (both at the beginning and end of the lesson) and also their skills at communicating. Communicating in a way that the person understands you can be very hard - some people are visual, other by feel, others just a good description that they relate to will work. My instructor specifically used multiple descriptions and demonstrations for each drill to insure we understood what we were suppose to be working on. He was also very clear about the goal of the drills which was very helpful. I like the idea above of having the instructor go up the lift with you and talk about technique.

I did like the one lesson I took, but I'm not in any hurry to take another one. I didn't have any 'ah-ha!' moment which made it so I could ski new parts of the mountain or have any substaintial change to my skiing style so I appreciated skiing more. I love skiing, and my lesson didn't really add to the enjoyment of skiing since I don't rate my ski days by my technique used on the hill. Contrasting to that, I'm extremely competitive and analytical, so I do pay a lot of attention to my technique - but it isn't the reason why I'm on the hill; I'm there to have fun. My skiing improved during my lesson about as much as it does when watch some ski instruction videos online or talk to people on the lift about their technique and then watch them go do the hill. The cost of a group lesson at the places I go is about the same as the cost of a lift ticket, so I rather ski an extra day than take a lesson. Also, my ski days are limited by my vacation days - so a half/full day spent in a lesson and not actually skiing that much is close to a day wasted.

 

[SkiNana]

This is another thing that has separated the great from the ordinary for me. The great instructors for me have been ones that have been able to covey their point in multiple ways and have recognised when what they are trying to convey isn't going in and changed the delivery (might be rephrasing, might be using a different drill, demonstration etc). My son's school teacher told him in a parent teacher interview, that if he, or others in the class, weren't grasping what she was teaching them, then it was because she needed to change how she taught something to him, others, the class. This is true for ski instructors as well.

Amen to this! (It's also true for medical providers: if the patient doesn't get it, I'm not doing it right!)

 

[apski]

One thing I'd like is a little attention paid to gear. I skied for 2 years on skis that were too short (so I was unstable) and boots that had too much forward lean (so I couldn't stand up). I took a TON of lessons during this time trying to improve and I didn't get anywhere. I know instructors aren't bootfitters, but I was actually told by one or two instructors that gear doesn't matter. I eventually got new skis and boots and almost cried when I figured out how much my old gear had held me back. It's really disappointing to me that the instructor that I used 6 weeks in a row for private lessons ($$$!!) never said hey, I see you are struggling with this same thing every week, let's talk about whether there could be something about your skis or boots.

I like this too.

My instructor at Breck last year for camp told us "when in doubt, blame the boots"! Sort of kidding but also making the point that gear can definitely help or hinder. Got myself to the bootfitter for the first time last month to be ready for this year and am hopeful that wearing the CORRECT SIZE boot will be a bonus!

 

[geargrrl]

One lesson in thirty years? That's not much to go on, but you acknowledged that.


Anyway here's my thoughts. I would agree that the ability to present a concept in multiple learning formats is critical, especially with groups. (kenetic, auditory, etc) Also, presenting multiple drills that explore a concept in various physical ways is important. While I've never been in group lessons that had a big spread, I could see how that would be a problem.


I did group lessons every year for quite a few years. It's been a while now, but the above is what I really remember. We all knew each other, and were all together for six weeks every year. It was a great series our mountain had for ski patrollers and their spouses.

Now that I do privates once or twice a year, the thing that makes a lesson for me is to come away from the lesson with one or two concepts that I can really grasp really firmly.

 

[Celestron2000]

To me, the main problem with ability gap is actually just a poor management of the group. I was once in a "group" lesson where the instructor focus on ONE skier within a group, of just THREE! I mean, how can you be in a group of 3 and still not get much attention???

Sure, there's probably an ability gap. But that's for the instructor to manage. He instead just work with the best one in the group, totally ignore the rest of the group 1/2 hr into a 2 hr group lesson!

Hmm... was she cute?

 

[CMCM]

This wouldn't necessarily work in a group lesson, but for sure in a private lesson I want to be watched by the instructor and critiqued for form, etc. I want feedback on everything!

I see instructors skiing down the hill with their student or students behind them sometimes, and they see nothing that way. They don't help anyone, they just ski down the slope. I wouldn't hire an instructor that does that. I like to know what I'm doing that is right, and what is wrong, and I love to learn new little techniques and exercises to improve various things.

Another pet peeve: an instructor who is focused on taking you down slopes that are too challenging for your level.

 

[bounceswoosh]

I see instructors skiing down the hill with their student or students behind them sometimes, and they see nothing that way. They don't help anyone, they just ski down the slope. I wouldn't hire an instructor that does that. I like to know what I'm doing that is right, and what is wrong, and I love to learn new little techniques and exercises to improve various things.

You might be surprised at what the instructor notices when skiing ahead of the group. I sure have been.

Also, at certain stages of my skiing, having to follow the instructor has been a huge help. The obvious one is following in the instructor's tracks, but there's also a lot to be said, at a certain point where skill is higher than confidence, for an instructor who skis ahead and forces the group to rush to catch up. The day I improved the most from start to finish was the day I first had a lesson like that. I ended up skiing trees and bumps much faster than I ever would have on my own, just to catch up with the instructor I was constantly on the verge of losing. No time for anxiety to catch up with me. This might not work for everyone at every stage, but it sure did wonders for me. Also, just skiing behind someone who is extremely skilled will make you a better skier, if you're at all trying to ski like them.