Question: What makes or breaks a lesson?

[snoWYmonkey]

I have been teaching full time for 10 or so years and I often wonder about our students and their true experiences and thoughts about the many lessons they take. Most of us are comfortable stating the positive, but less so the negative. This forum seems like the perfect place to learn more about the times we felt let down and what led up to that feeling.

While most of us look for very different things in a lesson (to be pushed beyond our comfort zone, to be taken to easier runs to learn good technique, to have fun, to be safe, to familiarize ourselves with a new mountain, etc...) I think we all have an idea about what made a great lesson, even if it did not always end with a skiing epiphany.

Looking forward to hearing what other Ski Divas have to share for myself and other instructors to learn from.

Averaging 40 plus hours a season of coaching/instruction I have my own ideas...but really want yours!

Thanks

 

[abc]

I think every person has a different idea of what they want out of a lesson. Still, everyone who took a lesson wants to "improve"!

I think a lot of the times, student don't know what to improve, never mind how. At least that how I was when I was taking individual, random lessons. I knew what didn't work, be it not able to make short turn or not able to do moguls. But what basic skill that's needed to "do" the turn or slope, I didn't know. I rely on the instructors to tell me what I need to work on and how to work on it. Some instructors are better than others. But all in all, the better skier I became, I found the more helpful the lessons (up to a point).

 

[bounceswoosh]

A little tipsy here ... but tons of experience on the receiving end of lessons!

Fun. The group must be fun.

Individual feedback. I like it when an instructor gives me specific feedback. I don't like it when an instructor says, "Some of us are ..." Then I have to figure out if that includes me or not, and sometimes I've ended up overcompensating for a "problem" that it turns out I don't actually have. Give me at least one thing that I know is an issue I personally need to address, and give me one drill or visualization I can use to address it.

People of about the same level. Not necessarily the same skill level, but able to get down the mountain at about the same rate without a meltdown. My worst lessons have been when instructors didn't reassign students on the low end of the spectrum who then ended up imploding, or at least holding back the class the whole day. They really would have been better off in a different lesson, and I am sure there are diplomatic ways to do that without alienating the student.

I really appreciate it when an instructor makes a point of going up the lift with a different set of students every time and using that downtime to discuss skiing technique.

Don't talk too much on the mountain! I get cold easily when I'm not moving, and I also start noticing my feet, my hands, etc. A minute or two of discussion, max, and then let's ski! (I realize this isn't universal - and is especially problematic when you have a mix of fitness levels / altitude adjustment).

 

[snow addict]

Feedback and local knowledge. I prefer instructors who are if not originally from the area where I ski then have been teaching there for at least 7-10 years. Because then the instructor together with technique and useful tactical tips also can show me the mountain.

 

[shima]

Definitely agree that it's really important to not have anyone in the lesson who is overly going to slow it down by not being able to keep up (in both senses of the word up here)

Instructor needs to be encouraging but constantly giving me one or two things to improve on each run. I teach martial arts and one thing that works really well is to only critique a few mistakes at a time since if you give the student too many things to work on they end up having troubles remembering half of the corrections. So you do a couple at a time and add to it after they have fixed those consistently

 

[Skise]

I think the most important thing is the instructors ability to communicate what the goal is, why is that important and how the current excercise helps with that. Sometimes it's obvious but other times it's less obvious and at least I feel like I'm doing the same thing over and over again when I would like to be doing something more advanced. Or that I'm just made to do random drills that have no relation to MY skiing at all. I do hope every instructor has a goal when teaching and it is just communication problem :D

Some time ago I took two lessons, first one on wednesday and then the other one on thursday. Both were at the same resort but with different instructors. The first one was what I wanted and the second one was what I needed But without the first lesson I'd probably have been very disappointed with the second one because I wouldn't have understood that I needed it. Like "WTF, this is ridiculous, why is he making me snowplow down this mellow red groomer?" It was a great lesson but if it had been the first one the instructor would have needed to work very hard to make me understand it is a great lesson.

 

[contesstant]

I think the most important thing is the instructors ability to communicate what the goal is, why is that important and how the current excercise helps with that. Sometimes it's obvious but other times it's less obvious and at least I feel like I'm doing the same thing over and over again when I would like to be doing something more advanced. Or that I'm just made to do random drills that have no relation to MY skiing at all. I do hope every instructor has a goal when teaching and it is just communication problem :D

Some time ago I took two lessons, first one on wednesday and then the other one on thursday. Both were at the same resort but with different instructors. The first one was what I wanted and the second one was what I needed But without the first lesson I'd probably have been very disappointed with the second one because I wouldn't have understood that I needed it. Like "WTF, this is ridiculous, why is he making me snowplow down this mellow red groomer?" It was a great lesson but if it had been the first one the instructor would have needed to work very hard to make me understand it is a great lesson.

This is what works for me, too. I want to know what I'm doing wrong, and how we are trying to correct it so I can really focus on that when I am turned loose and left to my own devices.

I also had an entire lesson wasted last winter when I was paired with someone who was way behind me in ability (which I didn't think was possible! :p)

 

[snoWYmonkey]

How and why we can't or should not always switch out mixed ability level students

Thank you ladies for your feedback. Clarity, goals, drills, and especially the individual feedback are all things most of us have been taught to incorporate. Keeping it focused, and perhaps moving on if progress is not being made are key too. Thrilled that one of you mentioned the fun aspect of lessons.

The one recurring theme I read so far that we have a harder time addressing is the ability splits. Please believe me when I say that the instructor is painfully aware of differences in either ability or speed in our group lessons.

Most of the time we can not correct this because of budget considerations that will not allow us to send out two skiers with same skill level albeit differing speeds with their de facto private instructors.

Other times, we simply do not have the staff, such as during school holidays. Typically at my mountain, we will try to rearrange a lesson at lunch time when the groups re-gather. I tend to address the obvious early on, and explain how I will still tailor the lesson so that the faster/better skier can benefit.

Many times I have had fast students, though not necessarily technically proficient ones, fail to pay attention as they think that being much faster than the rest of the group means they are better skiers. By the end of the day or camp, as we up the ante by skiing really steep double blacks, they flail as they did not take the time to practice the very slow and at times tedious drills that make such challenges easier.

As instructors we spend (hopefully most of us do) countless hours training and improving. Very often we are on green runs perfecting the most basic skills. If we can do them well on flats and slowly, we might be doing them well at speed which masks most flaws (to a point of course).

Ultimately, my suggestion for students is to state their disappointment about the ability differences, and ask if there is any chance to be moved up (or down if things are moving too fast for good learning). Unless we know it is bothering the student enough to take away from their learning, we may not take the ten-twenty minutes out of the lesson to see if the switch is possible.

It all goes back to the fun part. Even if the next level up is not ideal for a given student, as long as they leave at the end of the day feeling as though they had fun, it is always worth trying to make that switch happen.

 

[snow addict]

This is what works for me, too. I want to know what I'm doing wrong, and how we are trying to correct it so I can really focus on that when I am turned loose and left to my own devices.

I also had an entire lesson wasted last winter when I was paired with someone who was way behind me in ability (which I didn't think was possible! :p)

This is one of the reasons I am taking private lessons. The other being that usually I don't have a choice - group lessons run Monday-Friday, and I am a weekender.

 

[contesstant]

This is one of the reasons I am taking private lessons. The other being that usually I don't have a choice - group lessons run Monday-Friday, and I am a weekender.

I just honestly cannot afford private lessons. I try to sign up for groups during the week because they often end up being private anyway. I MIGHT spring for a private this year but the cost for lessons at Mammoth is exorbitant even for an hour. I figure I get more out of a few hours/half day "group" than one hour private. One hour is only enough for a couple runs and I need a LOT more than that!!

Anyway, to the OP, yes of course it's fun!! I do love how following an instructor or leading the way makes me forget about my speed and makes me just GO!

 

[bounceswoosh]

The one recurring theme I read so far that we have a harder time addressing is the ability splits. Please believe me when I say that the instructor is painfully aware of differences in either ability or speed in our group lessons.

I know all the reasons ... and I know it's often beyond the instructor's control ... but unfortunately it has a huge impact on the class dynamic. And I have seen situations where it caused much worse fallout. When the student goes from just being slow / tentative to having a total panic attack and the instructor has already skied far ahead ... obviously a lot has gone wrong at that point, but it can happen in advanced lessons and there is no good recovery. Returning to the student is almost impossible (even going back up and down, you wouldn't be able to keep track of them while you were on the lift); standing around waiting kills the rest of the lesson; abandoning them makes everyone feel icky.

This actually comes up sometimes at Breck because of the ski lesson pass. The upper lessons are dominated by people who are familiar with all the runs and ski anywhere from 25-100+ days a season. Every now and then someone from out of town actually pays for a lesson and categorizes themselves as a level 8 or 9, but their fitness and skill levels often don't match the rest of the students. Or they do great for a few runs, and then the altitude and run length gets to them and they start falling apart. They're addressing that this year, in part, by guaranteeing paying students (non-pass holders) a max class size of 4 students.

Honestly, many people who don't ski regularly (and I was one of them) have a totally different picture of what "skiable terrain," "as good as you can get without being a pro," and "lots of vertical" looks like than those who ski regularly.

 

[Liquid Yellow]

For me it's clear explanation of what you want me to do, and what it will help me achieve.

The lesson I had recently was great once it dawned on me what he was trying to get me to do!

He was getting me to do drills aimed at getting me to really drive the downhill ski forward and stop twisting my hips, but it took me a little while to grasp it.

I think the lightbulb moment was when he said 'pretend you're kicking a ball around the corner', and then I began to feel the difference!

So for me, it's being very clear, and telling me WHY. I also agree with what other people have said about the fun factor, and being in a class with people of the same ability. My recent lesson was a one to one, but I've been in many classes in the past and been frustrated by much slower people/waiting around.

 

[shima]

I just honestly cannot afford private lessons. I try to sign up for groups during the week because they often end up being private anyway. I MIGHT spring for a private this year but the cost for lessons at Mammoth is exorbitant even for an hour. I figure I get more out of a few hours/half day "group" than one hour private. One hour is only enough for a couple runs and I need a LOT more than that!!

Anyway, to the OP, yes of course it's fun!! I do love how following an instructor or leading the way makes me forget about my speed and makes me just GO!

I agree, the cost does tend to be pretty steep for privates, so I'm planning to do just one this year at some point, since multiples really isn't affordable. But then again most adult classes are small, so sometimes it's like almost getting a private. I put my fiance in snowboarding school at the Burton Academy the week after Christmas and both of the 2 days he was in class (guaranteed 4 or less students) it was just him and one other student. Practically a private at that point But same complaint as with skiing lessons and ability splits, he was learning faster and the other boarder was learning slower and getting more attention as a result.

I just hope whenever I do take some lessons this season that I don't get stuck with people who overly complain or fall a lot, cuz then we'll waste a lot of time discussing complaints or picking them up and dusting them off, heh. As long as the instructor can keep things fun and give the more advanced student things to work on while they help the slower learner though, ability differences don't have to be a total hindrance.

 

[Skise]

I get privates because I have no other option. The group lessons just don't happen here. Ruka is trying, but they want 4 or 5 students or there is no lesson and last time there was only me and one other student so we didn't get a group lesson. I took some privates and the other one skipped the lessons altogether.

For the "Ladies' ski school" last year they had just one group for all the skiers (because again we were very few). Including the one who actually wanted to ride a snowboard and not ski and hadn't skied since she was 12 yo. I don't know if the experts got anything out of the lessons but the boarder was doing surprisingly well when she joined the group after a morning of private tuition. It certainly helped in keeping the group together that Ruka is small, so everyone was able to ski anything there.

 

[badger]

In the past few years I have had the assortment of group lessons. A 3-day clinic coed, group of women, group that turned private, etc. Most of them were beneficial in one way or another. If I take away one solid piece of information that I can use, then the lesson is good.

I do think however, that it is the student who fails to articulate very clearly what they are seeking. "Improve" is a "DUH!" statement leaving the instructor having to spend the first 30-40 minutes figuring out exactly where to start with an individual, especially in a group setting. People are initially self-conscious in a group and tend to go along with the most vocal student. It's natural to want to please everyone and not become a PITA attention seeker, so the mellower students just acquiesce and leave a little disappointed at the end of their lesson.
In privates or semi-privates the instructors seem to be quite skillful at evaluating where folks are, using their own judgement to work out a lesson based on just one or 2 critical aspects needed to improve a technique...and sticking to those. When a student feels something new and right and easy to accomplish, he leaves a happy camper knowing practice will fine tune the new skill.
The student must remember that input=output. You cannot expect a good lesson without helping your instructor understand your needs. They don't read minds.

 

[Christy]

One thing I'd like is a little attention paid to gear. I skied for 2 years on skis that were too short (so I was unstable) and boots that had too much forward lean (so I couldn't stand up). I took a TON of lessons during this time trying to improve and I didn't get anywhere. I know instructors aren't bootfitters, but I was actually told by one or two instructors that gear doesn't matter. I eventually got new skis and boots and almost cried when I figured out how much my old gear had held me back. It's really disappointing to me that the instructor that I used 6 weeks in a row for private lessons ($$$!!) never said hey, I see you are struggling with this same thing every week, let's talk about whether there could be something about your skis or boots.

I really appreciate it when an instructor makes a point of going up the lift with a different set of students every time and using that downtime to discuss skiing technique.

I like this too.

 

[SkiNana]

Privat lesson and lightbulb moments

I just honestly cannot afford private lessons. I try to sign up for groups during the week because they often end up being private anyway. I MIGHT spring for a private this year but the cost for lessons at Mammoth is exorbitant even for an hour. I figure I get more out of a few hours/half day "group" than one hour private. One hour is only enough for a couple runs and I need a LOT more than that!!

Big Sky privates are horrendously expensive ($360 for three hours AND they get a tip!) but you can have a number of like level skiers in a private and split the cost. This might work for Diva Week after people have skied together a bit, or for those who already know each other. I think they would be also be amenable if people presented for a group lesson with the group already formed. Group lessons are $70 a head, for either all morning or afternoon.

Ditto Bounceswoosh' list of points about what makes a successful lesson! Additional, I believe semantics plays a huge part. I have been variously told, in regard to turning technique, "long leg, short leg", "Don't turn with your spine.", "Lead with your toes." and "It's like a bicycle." (This never made any sense to me!) But it wasn't until an instructor said, "You turn with your feet first (!! I think I thought it all started in the knees.) and "Soften your knee.", that it all clicked! Suddenly I was facing downhill (T over T! ) and feeling the "pendulum" feeling that you get when it's all happening below the waist. Lightbulb! It was a breakthrough moment and DH noticed immediately when we skied together the next day.

 

[abc]

Private vs group is mostly split across the pond!

The first time I was over the pond (in Europe), I was blown away at how affordable privates are. So I promptly signed up for one, which worked out brilliantly!

I knew the price of private this side of the pond. I could never justify it unless it's someone like Weems who could absolutely revolutionalize one's skiing.

The price differential simply favors group lesson here in the US. But if you're in Europe, that's a different story.

 

[tinymoose]

Is it normal to tip your instructor for a private lesson?

 

[Jilly]

YES!!! Instructors don't make a lot of money!!


Interesting is that no one has mentioned much about learning styles. Someone mentioned ski alot and quit talking. But some people learn by describing aka talk and some learn by watching. The end result is the same but the process differs for the instructor.