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Help Needed: What Kinds of Women's Programs Would You Like To See?

WaterGirl

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
#81
Video analysis used in other sports for me has proven extremely helpful to work on technical points/specific maneuvers or to record competition.

Skiing I've only had short clips from instructor with voice over explaining what to work on texted to me after lesson. That was easy, helpful and private. Not every instructor can be that that good with their iPhone. (btw I haven't taken many lessons). DH will randomly video me, for that I am grateful as I can use it for self analysis.

Some people really don't have a true idea of what they are doing as noted with the "pink pants" person @Skier31 described as denying it was her. Nothing like reality check of sharing video of an ass wiggling surfer on a waist high wave who said they were hitting the lip on a overhead set.

I will mention again that we all have different learning styles. For the visual learner, video can be huge.

Male or Female instructor? Ive had more male instructors in my athletic endeavors, thats just the nature of the sports I've been in. But how about the "BEST" instructor for the group and area --whether it be male or female? Rather have the instructor that was the best fit for all regardless of gender.
 

liquidfeet

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
#82
People signing up for a "women's clinic" will do so because they assume that the clinic will be all-women, and that because of that it will somehow be different, and better, than normal clinics with both men and women in them.

If I were to register for a women's clinic and upon showing up to discover that our group's leader was a man, and that the explanation was that he was the "BEST" instructor, that would signal to me that the mountain ski school offering the clinic did not think any of their women instructors were good enough to teach the clinic. That might be correct, in some sense, if one of their male instructors regularly got accolades for years and years from every kind of student, and if none of the women instructors seemed to be beloved by their students.

But I would still ask for my money back and post on this forum that this ski school is insensitive to women's issues. If you don't have on staff a decent female instructor that you trust to lead the group, don't offer a women's clinic.
 

WaterGirl

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
#83
People signing up for a "women's clinic" will do so because they assume that the clinic will be all-women, and that because of that it will somehow be different, and better, than normal clinics with both men and women in them.

If you don't have on staff a decent female instructor that you trust to lead the group, don't offer a women's clinic.
@liquidfeet tou·ché

And this is why I have never taken a women's specific clinic. I know there are several top notch womens instructors, but they are not available for the clinics. (you see there is this little side business of being hired as a "private" instructor. All the "good" male and female instructors are booked on weekends b/c well they can make bank working for one 'special' client rather than being paid by the mountain to run a clinic).

Perhaps the "womens" clinics I have seen on the mountain in the past were not truly representative of the mountains female staff. But I would't be paying $$$$ to be in the groups I've seen. As I've previously posted, the mountain has dumbed down its woman's offerings.
 
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WaterGirl

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
#84
Which I should clarify my statement about top women instructors not being available - there are no womens clinics on weekends anymore. Only weekdays. Unless Alterra changes that. Oh and and only one female instructor, a snowboarder, for the 10 day series last year.
 

liquidfeet

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
#85
You make a good point, WaterGirl. What you say might apply to some mountains, but not necessarily at all of them. Where I've taught in New England, most instructors are not booked up totally ahead of time, even the ones that have 20 years of experience and Level III certification.

Do you teach at a large Alterra mountain?
 

WaterGirl

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
#86
I agree that my statements are no way representative of what should or would occur at a woman's clinic! I don't teach, and I don't consider skiing to be my primary sport. However, based upon time spent w/ DD's coaches (I love the freestyle coaches) and being privy to some insider info I've learned how the mountain has worked in the past. There are 'particular' clients to book out certain instructors on a regular basis.... we have a "black pass" that costs thousands of dollars.... those pass holders get those instructors.
 

mustski

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
#87
I will be an oddball here, but something I loved years ago at Heavenly in Tahoe was the opportunity to book a one hour intensive private lesson. Privates are expensive and one hour was enough for me to walk away with drills and specific skills to work on. It probably worked out well for instructors tip wise also!
 
#88
So, one more question: How important is it that a women's clinic have female instructors?
I think women who opt for a women's-only clinic would expect a female instructor to be in charge. However, if program at a small ski area also included very experienced male instructors that would probably be okay. Definitely better than the alternative of a group that's too big because there aren't enough women fully qualified to teach levels beyond advanced beginner. Of course, the possibility should be mentioned up front on marketing materials.

For the 8-session Gold Clinic at Massanutten, which was co-ed, sometimes the resident Examiner or another L3 would help out. The L3 instructor who ran the program was clearly the primary instructor. But he would sometimes ask for comments from the other instructor after explaining something to the group. The other instructor would help with 1-1 coaching at times. I know the primary instructor would discuss ideas for future lessons with whoever helped out.
 
#89
Agree that a women's clinic should be taught by a female instructor.

RE video - I have had success using it to film various, smaller, broken down parts of skiing. Not drills per se, but trying to feel or do one thing. Then see how it looks vs. how it feels. It seems less intimidating to students because, well, that's not how they actually ski. So we can dissect things without any judgment about their normal ski turns.
 

Skier31

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
#90
LOL, my (female) manager and I were rolling our eyes about this same phenomenon today. We swore our women's programs would NOT involve wine or yoga. Or a "She Shed" :rolleyes:

Has anyone done a clinic or lesson that involved video analysis? Curious about how appealing that would be. I know I would find it extremely helpful, but also would want to be careful about how the analysis was delivered; I imagine that not everyone would want to have their form dissected in front of a group.
People signing up for a "women's clinic" will do so because they assume that the clinic will be all-women, and that because of that it will somehow be different, and better, than normal clinics with both men and women in them.

If I were to register for a women's clinic and upon showing up to discover that our group's leader was a man, and that the explanation was that he was the "BEST" instructor, that would signal to me that the mountain ski school offering the clinic did not think any of their women instructors were good enough to teach the clinic. That might be correct, in some sense, if one of their male instructors regularly got accolades for years and years from every kind of student, and if none of the women instructors seemed to be beloved by their students.

But I would still ask for my money back and post on this forum that this ski school is insensitive to women's issues. If you don't have on staff a decent female instructor that you trust to lead the group, don't offer a women's clinic.
I disagree. As a student, I want the best instructor. There are many men -Bob Barnes and others who understand women’s issues.
Many ski schools do not have a large percentage of women instructors or a large percentage of Level 3 or examiner level instructors. I do not think this means the school is insensitive to women’s issues. This is changing, but changing slowly.

I think that if there may be male instructors teaching, this should be disclosed in the materials or advertisement so that people know in advance.
 

liquidfeet

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
#91
Of course male teachers can teach women just as well as a female teachers can. And vice versa. And where I teach, most ski instructors are men.

These facts do not mean a specified "Women's Clinic" for which only women sign up should be taught by a male. There are expectations that cling to the label "women's clinic," and those expectations should be met, shouldn't they? Women who sign up for these courses are choosing a single-gender learning environment on purpose. They are taking a gamble that something different from the norm will happen, and that it will be interesting or good in some way. I think their choice should be affirmed and the leader should be a woman.

If a ski school chooses to advertise a women's clinic as being taught by a male, and if they do this as an experiment, I'd like to see that offer paired with a second identical course offered with a woman teaching it... with the price the same for both, please. This might be a great experiment. I wonder how many women would choose to sign up for the male-lead clinic over the other. Dunno. I'd feel sad if more signed up for the male-led course. We haven't had a female president yet; maybe that's what would happen. Why would a bunch of women interested in a "women's clinic" want to sign up for the male-led version? The only reason would be thinking that a male would be the better teacher based on preconceptions associated with gender.

I THINK experiencing a course with only women is part of the reason to take a woman's clinic in the first place. Signing up for a women's clinic is not just about learning to ski better, is it? Something extra must be going on there.
 

WaterGirl

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
#92
I THINK experiencing a course with only women is part of the reason to take a woman's clinic in the first place. Signing up for a women's clinic is not just about learning to ski better, is it? Something extra must be going on there.
I think @liquidfeet you bring up a valid point -- that there may be different "classes" of women who want different things from an "all" women's clinic

How about:
1. Woman's clinic led by women for women only
2. Woman's clinic for women only but because of its unique nature, may have a male instructor who is the best for that specific clinic-- park, back country etc.

Maybe you want to be in an all female group led by a woman.
Maybe you want to be in an all female group led by "the best person" -who ever that may be

I think I'm an outlier. But thats b/c of prior sports experience - I just want a cohesive group of individuals who are being taught by the best person :wink:
 
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#93
I think @liquidfeet you bring up a valid point -- that there may be different "classes" of women who want different things from an "all" women's clinic

How about:
1. Woman's clinic led by women for women only
2. Woman's clinic for women only but because of its unique nature, may have a male instructor who is the best for that specific clinic-- park, back country etc.

Maybe you want to be in an all female group led by a woman.
Maybe you want to be in an all female group led by "the best person" -who ever that may be

I think I'm an outlier. But thats b/c of prior sports experience - I just want a cohesive group of individuals who are being taught by the best person :wink:
Fair to say that a woman who is an intermediate who would like to start skiing off the groomers will have a different viewpoint and expectation of a Women's Clinic than a woman who is advanced enough want to learn about back country technique and terrain. In the Mid-Atlantic, there aren't any back country clinics because there is so little back country terrain.

May be a bit of a generational aspect too. A woman who didn't play sports in high school or college because Title IX was not even a glimmer might be more comfortable with a female instructor. Probably preferably a woman who is over 40.

I'm an outlier for women over 60 because I played on a co-ed soccer team in middle school in the 1960s. Coach was a man. I was a tomboy, and still am. Played other sports in high school, which was a girl's school so all the coaches were women. Played in a co-ed rec soccer league in college. Most of my private ski lessons have been with men based on recommendations by name, and that works well for me. Had a very good L3 instructor at Alta who was recommended by my usual instructor the season he was injured. But certainly didn't feel any need to switch to her just because she was a woman.

The Taos Ladies Ski Week is advertised as for women only, with all female instructors. Taos has more than enough very experienced L3 instructors who regularly teach co-ed Ski Weeks who can be pulled out for 1-2 Ladies Ski Weeks during the season. Most of the intermediates doing the Ladies Ski Week were with a ski club from Michigan. I bet they were happy a ski off was not required.
 

Jilly

Moderator
Staff member
#94
I've been through 3 women's only clinics. 2 were at WB, called Roxy at that time. We had L3 and L4 instructors for the 2 days. In fact the first year, Mountain xtc was my instructor. The second year I got a L3 aussie who is friends with my boot fitter. I suspect this works well at WB as they have a large snow school and only the best get the clinic gig.

The CSIA is running the "ladies edge camp". The thought behind this is that there are not enough L3 and L4 women instructors. Especially here in the east. The clinic I took, we had the instructor who is running this program for 2 days. She also brought in a L3 lady that was working on her L4. She needed the practice of teaching higher level skiing and she also benefited from the instructor's help. Even though this clinic was specifically for ski instructors, it wasn't that much different than the Roxy camp at WB. Well except for terrain, the video (which we got) and the free apres (which we didn't get).

I really like the premise of the ladies only. The Ladies edge camp came out of a session at the fall members convention. A group of ladies were standing in a group, we were all going to the same session. Kathy Prophet came over and turn to myself and another lady, and said "stick together". I got the gist right away, and said..You can make this happen? We had a great session. From that and another lady's ideas....the Edge Camp was born.

I can ask about the Elle ski at Tremblant. My friend used to teach it. It's a Saturday morning class with women instructors. I know my friend is L3 and she taught the higher level group. I don't know if video is involved or not. So I'll be seeing her next weekend.
 

Jenny

Angel Diva
#95
Most of the intermediates doing the Ladies Ski Week were with a ski club from Michigan. I bet they were happy a ski off was not required.
Out of curiosity, why do you say this? Because they were intermediates? Because they were from Michigan? Because an intermediate couldn’t possibly want to be placed in the best group for her and even if a ski off was the way to get there then she still wouldn’t want to do it?
 
#96
Out of curiosity, why do you say this? Because they were intermediates? Because they were from Michigan? Because an intermediate couldn’t possibly want to be placed in the best group for her and even if a ski off was the way to get there then she still wouldn’t want to do it?
Just an impression about that particular group of women, not about intermediates in general. Certainly not meant as a general statement about intermediate women from Michigan. Sorry if it came across that way.

That week there was a ski club from Michigan at Taos. Almost all of the women who were in the intermediate group were with the ski club. I talked to a few of them as we gathered the first morning. Some made comments about being nervous about doing a Ski Week. It was pretty easy to tell which women knew each other before that week. I think it was a first trip out west for some of them. It was very clear after the first morning lesson that they were having a great time.

My advanced group also included women from the midwest. They were part of a group of friends who have been staying at the St. Bernard the same week every year for a decade or two. Husbands and wives do Ski Weeks in different groups.

For what it's worth, I was relieved that no ski off was required. Definitely another reason that I decided to do the Ladies Ski Week instead of a regular Ski Week. Given that no black terrain was open, I probably could have been in the group with my ski buddy Bill, even though I'm not quite at his level yet. His instructor retired after last season and I'd heard a lot about Dan. But the free demos for 5 days that made the decision even easier. As I mentioned in the thread about Ladies Ski Week, the price was the same, but the Ladies Ski Week had perks.
 

marymack

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
#98
Thinking about the whole yoga+ skiing concept. I agree that a full on yoga class before or after the ski day (or the assumption that "that's what women want") is maybe not appropriate. However, I do think there should be more of an emphasis on stretching before and after the ski day. Skiing is an athletic sport and hoping on the lift and charging down the first run is asking for an injury; taking off your boots and immediately sitting down for a beer or getting in your car to drive home is also likely to lead to stiffness and soreness. I actually think leading the group in 10-15 minutes of stretching before and after the day is a great idea.
 

Skier31

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Of course male teachers can teach women just as well as a female teachers can. And vice versa. And where I teach, most ski instructors are men.

These facts do not mean a specified "Women's Clinic" for which only women sign up should be taught by a male. There are expectations that cling to the label "women's clinic," and those expectations should be met, shouldn't they? Women who sign up for these courses are choosing a single-gender learning environment on purpose. They are taking a gamble that something different from the norm will happen, and that it will be interesting or good in some way. I think their choice should be affirmed and the leader should be a woman.

If a ski school chooses to advertise a women's clinic as being taught by a male, and if they do this as an experiment, I'd like to see that offer paired with a second identical course offered with a woman teaching it... with the price the same for both, please. This might be a great experiment. I wonder how many women would choose to sign up for the male-lead clinic over the other. Dunno. I'd feel sad if more signed up for the male-led course. We haven't had a female president yet; maybe that's what would happen. Why would a bunch of women interested in a "women's clinic" want to sign up for the male-led version? The only reason would be thinking that a male would be the better teacher based on preconceptions associated with gender.

I THINK experiencing a course with only women is part of the reason to take a woman's clinic in the first place. Signing up for a women's clinic is not just about learning to ski better, is it? Something extra must be going on there.
I participated in a program called “Babes in the Bumps”. It was a women only multi week clinic. There were social events outside of weekly all day lessons. Many groups skied together for years. They would ask certain instructors to teach their groups. Most of them selected male instructors.

I think that you can have a group of women students with a male instructor. I believe that many women want the dynamic of all women students and do not have a strong preference for the instructor. Some do. I get it.
 

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