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Help Needed: What Kinds of Women's Programs Would You Like To See?

WaterGirl

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
#23
Hahaha. Well said ski instructor of 10 weeks took copious video. I've seen one. It was texted to me w/ voice as to what I was doing and what needed to be fixed. Was helpful. On the other hand, I have the most awesome video of me skiing deep powder one of our ski tour days thanks to another male member of our group. go figure. somewhere is a lot of video on instructors iPhone.... I will say it was helpful to have video/ w/ instructor voice over. texted or email would be helpful without being embarrassing I guess....


LOL, my (female) manager and I were rolling our eyes about this same phenomenon today. We swore our women's programs would NOT involve wine or yoga. Or a "She Shed" :rolleyes:
I agree, don't dumb it down. Your real @SallyCat.
Maybe I'm an outlier -- surfing in the 2% of women who charge hard, and have been in other sports on a professional level, I've been in competitive sports with a lot of men, having to prove myself.
I think its good to be in a group that is at your level, and yes it can be all women, but don't give me some lame experience charge me $500 for the weekend. BWT last year they did "hole in the wall" back side of mt, b/c of so much snow. I'm not sure what happened w/ marketing between we are going to rock a tour back side on a double black to well, lets just ski for 5 hours out of 2 days and suck some wine......
 

marymack

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
#25
First off, congrats SallyCat! That's awesome!
+1 on WaterGirl's baby backcountry class. Either true backcountry or exploring the trees within the resort. If backcountry, learning how to skin, what to pack etc.


I really like when women only classes include a discussion about the mental side of skiing/sports and how women approach situations differently from Men. Maybe this could happen over lunch or during Apres ski during a 2 day clinic. In general, I havent found that the technique of skiing is all that different for men and women (with the exception of working harder to stay out of the backseat...but I think that also has a lot to do with fear and defensive skiing rather than differences in body shape)...its often the mental aspect that is the most different: learning to deal with fear, coming back from injury, dealing with setbacks or having an off day, learning that prefering a leasurly run rather than arcing turns down the mountain is fine.

For me, being in a womens only clinic isn't about learning some subtlety to skiing that is significantly different than how men ski (although I did have a lesson with a female instructor when I was getting ready for my level 2 that told me I needed to ski with my legs wider and less knock kneed because that is how men ski and the male PSIA examiners prefer to see that... Sheesh) but anyway its about being in an environment when a man (either the instructor or other skier) isnt going to mansplain to you, isnt going to jump in before you have a chance to ask or answer a question and isnt going to turn it into a competition when it doesnt need to be. So fostering the female comraderie and support is really important too.
 
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SallyCat

Moderator
Staff member
#26
but don't give me some lame experience charge me $500 for the weekend. BWT last year they did "hole in the wall" back side of mt, b/c of so much snow. I'm not sure what happened w/ marketing between we are going to rock a tour back side on a double black to well, lets just ski for 5 hours out of 2 days and suck some wine......
SO agree. I'm new-ish to skiing and have been really frustrated with much of the instruction I've paid for so far, which has felt to me to be short on substance. I'm not new to athletics and to being coached, and I hate it when an instructor is short on useful feedback but is sort of vaguely encouraging because I'm a middle-aged-lady-intermediate skier and they assume that I'm just looking to ski blue groomers better and can't handle criticism.
 

Tvan

Angel Diva
#27
I’ve had video analysis in both a ski seminar and a running program. In the running program, the instructor (Danny Dreyer, Chi Running) videoed each person individually from the front and from the side. He used an app made for coaches. We reviewed each video and he was able to stop the video, draw on the screen, and make notes about form and technique. He shared the annotated videos with us, and I still refer to mine. As a highly visual learner, I found this immensely useful.

The second time was at the Okemo WAA Program. My instructor just did a few quick videos... nothing formal like at the running class... and we watched them while she commented verbally. It was helpful.
 

SallyCat

Moderator
Staff member
#28
@marymack thank you for articulating so well why women's clinics are enjoyable and useful. Your post is a great explanation as to why we want women-only programming, but without the wine-and-yoga add-ons, which make it feel as though somehow women's programs need to be about more than the skiing.
 

Tvan

Angel Diva
#29
SO agree. I'm new-ish to skiing and have been really frustrated with much of the instruction I've paid for so far, which has felt to me to be short on substance. I'm not new to athletics and to being coached, and I hate it when an instructor is short on useful feedback but is sort of vaguely encouraging because I'm a middle-aged-lady-intermediate skier and they assume that I'm just looking to ski blue groomers better and can't handle criticism.
This. I’ve taken so many lessons where it was clear that the (always male) instructor saw me as a middle-aged intermediate housewife and delivered instruction as though I was headed back to housework right after the lesson. As though delivering substantive instruction to me was a waste of time. So discouraging.

That said, my experience at the Okemo WAA Program was somewhere in the middle of the scale, with wine-and-yoga on one end, and Olympic-training-camp at the other end. There was substance in the instruction (although not as much as at my running seminar), and also plenty of social opportunities. Personally, I’d like a little more focus on the instruction.
 
#30
I hosted Ladies Learn to Ski Clinics when I ran an XC center. It was so much fun, ladies when not w/men will share their concerns, fears and 'how they feel'. everyone learns differently and I found that women shared so much more without men around. We had them sporadically thru out the season they always sold out.

Video. I haven't seen myself ski very much so I don't mind it, but do think the 'pressure' of knowing one is on video makes it stressful this is not what is needed in a lesson. I would not want to be dissected in front of the group. I like the idea @WaterGirl mentions "private" analysis.

At Taos we were photographed in the beginning of ski week, we skied by the photo guy and then again at the end. It was great to see improvement but there was no analyzing in front of everyone. (we were asked if we wanted video but the timing was off so we didn't have any)
During the ski week, Our instructor would ride the lift and give pointers privately, then have you follow him turn for turn. Was interesting to see how much better some skied following the leader vs finding their own path which lead to more instruction on picking the path thru the bumps.

Good instructors have a large bag of tricks/tips to share w/students and that is what really makes a good lesson a good instructor.

Wine: well at Taos they have a martini tree as a fun ending w/some history about the 'tree'. I think it is nice in a multi-week clinic to end with a 'farewell' party that could include wine/hot chocolate so all can share emails etc. to stay excited, make plans to ski more together and be excited about what was learned.

Having 'make-up' days for multi-week clinics is essential, life does get in the way of skiing and if shelling out $$$ knowing you will be able to get all the days in is nice. Of course there has to be limits on make up time allowed.

I Can't wait to hear what type of ladies program you create @SallyCat
 

marzNC

Angel Diva
#31
SO agree. I'm new-ish to skiing and have been really frustrated with much of the instruction I've paid for so far, which has felt to me to be short on substance. I'm not new to athletics and to being coached, and I hate it when an instructor is short on useful feedback but is sort of vaguely encouraging because I'm a middle-aged-lady-intermediate skier and they assume that I'm just looking to ski blue groomers better and can't handle criticism.
That said, my experience at the Okemo WAA Program was somewhere in the middle of the scale, with wine-and-yoga on one end, and Olympic-training-camp at the other end. There was substance in the instruction (although not as much as at my running seminar), and also plenty of social opportunities. Personally, I’d like a little more focus on the instruction.
These comments reminded me about what happened at a 1-day clinic at Elk a few years ago. There were four women in the most advanced group, which I was in. However, I was the only one who had any interest in bumps so we worked on fundamentals on groomers in the morning. A couple of the women had done Elk Ladies' clinics before. The other was the wife of a ski partroller and a mom who hadn't taken lessons before as an adult. We saw her young daughter (6 or 7?) enjoying the bumps with her father from the chair at one point. During the first couple of teaching runs, the L3 instructor would give general criticisms but it wasn't that clear which comments were directed at which skier. Finally one of the locals spoke up and said she wanted direct feedback for her skiing, not general comments that applied to the group. The range of abilities was enough to make it a little hard to interpret what an individual should do differently. All of the students agreed. After that, the instructor was much more direct and the lesson became far more useful. The latter part of the morning was more like semi-private lessons I've had with L3 instructors with a friend or two when the skiing ability was somewhat different. More like parallel private lessons than a group lesson with the same information for everyone in the group. She was an experienced instructor, teacher by profession, older, but probably not too much experience teaching advanced skiers simply because not that many advanced adults take lessons at Elk.

I could only stay through lunch that day because I was on my way to VT for a Diva Week, so was more curious than looking to get a lot out of the clinic. The instructor made a point to do a last run with me on the bump run before lunch so she could give me a few tips. I'd let her know from the beginning that I had to leave right after lunch. She wrote down tips for each student on an index card for future reference. My understanding is that the afternoon session includes more 1-1 time and a little free skiing before the apres ski refreshments.
 

marzNC

Angel Diva
#32
Wine: well at Taos they have a martini tree as a fun ending w/some history about the 'tree'. I think it is nice in a multi-week clinic to end with a 'farewell' party that could include wine/hot chocolate so all can share emails etc. to stay excited, make plans to ski more together and be excited about what was learned.
One of the side benefits of a Taos Ski Week is the opportunity to make friends with someone in your group at the beginning of the week. Which opens up the possibility for eating lunch together and/or free skiing together in the afternoon.

For a local program, any sort of ice breaker time near the beginning or even at the first break to help attendees to connect with each other would be nice. Not everyone has the personality to reach out to find a new ski buddy after just an hour or two. Took me quite a few years to be willing to strike up a conversation with a stranger on the lift or in the lodge that could lead to doing a few runs together when I'm skiing solo.
 

Jilly

Moderator
Staff member
#33
Mammoth is missing out is the parents of the kids on the ski teams. Why would you not offer some type of program for them? They are there every weekend the kids are.
Why not do SOMETHING for the parents who are shelling out the $$ and the time to be on the hill?

Oh and you will need a baby back country class -- since its the fastest growing segment of skiing and you have that availability would be nice to do some intro to back country clinics.
This is what started the Ladies Night. The Mom's were there because they drove the race kids out for practice. Also the idea came from a similar program they were running at Edelweiss in Ottawa. Largest class group they had next to Saturday morning.

Like the idea of back country or at least bumps. When I did the WB clinic I think the first run and last run were on a groomer. We spent most of the time in the trees and bumps.

Video - it's done as part of the CSIA courses. I think it's a great tool. I've had an instructor use his cell phone to take one even. You remember what you felt, and the video shows it!!
 

socalgal

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
#34
I'm also wondering how appealing a women-only "introduction to the park" would be. (Learning to do small jumps properly, small box slides, etc.) I think a lot of skiers ignore park features, but it seems to me that some of the skills would translate well to skiing in trees and bumps and are just a fun extension of what you can do with good form and technique.
I'd love something like this!
 

Jilly

Moderator
Staff member
#35
Oakley puts those on at different areas. But it's usually teenagers. They get a pair of googles and lesson. Usually it's snowboarders, but it was open to 2 plankers.
 
#36
Has anyone done a clinic or lesson that involved video analysis? Curious about how appealing that would be. I know I would find it extremely helpful, but also would want to be careful about how the analysis was delivered; I imagine that not everyone would want to have their form dissected in front of a group.
I've had video analysis twice.... once in a group called "Ski Espirit" at Whistler in the 90's. We all sat together and watched.... why did I look like I was sitting in a chair while skiing? Second time was last season at Taos. Once again the whole group watched, but I didn't feel intimidated at all by the instructor or the group watching. Watching my skiing was like "oh shoot there I go again" getting a little back!!!

For me, the only way to really evaluate my own skiing is for me to view my skiing...... Will I do it again? Yes maybe.... For sure if I did a Taos Ladies Ski Week again. One thing I could have done without was the apres fashion show in the evening with wine. And I am interested in fashion but thought a bit silly..... also I had altitude issues from skiing above 9k ft.
 

2ski2moro

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
#37
I was in the Gore Ladies program a few years ago. I would like to mention the things I didn't like so you can avoid them when creating your program.

1. Small classes are required. One, or even two, instructors are insufficient for a group of 12-15 women. Try to keep it at 5 women per group to allow for instruction. Just watching us ski without personal input wastes my time.

2. Constructive criticism and effective teaching is required. One instructor in the Ladies program at Gore told me that they tried to keep it positive for the women. Women see criticism as hurtful? There has to be a happy medium. If I'm not told that I am in the backseat, how will I know if I am doing it wrong? I paid for the lesson, teach me. Teach me in a positive way. I'm not a snowflake whose feelings get hurt.

3. Don't be afraid to move women around if they are holding the group back. I paid for the lesson, as did the other women in the group.

4. Don't be afraid to advance someone, either. If someone is not challenged/not learning in the level she started in, bring her into the advanced group where she gets value for her money.

I wish I could remember the name of the Diva who impressed me so much last season with her group class. I remember how she felt so uncomfortable in the steep and deep and thought she was holding the group back. The instructor told her that she was in the right class. I was so impressed with her courage to try and the success she found. Do you remember her story? She needs to be linked into this topic.
 

marzNC

Angel Diva
#38
3. Don't be afraid to move women around if they are holding the group back. I paid for the lesson, as did the other women in the group.

4. Don't be afraid to advance someone, either. If someone is not challenged/not learning in the level she started in, bring her into the advanced group where she gets value for her money.
Good points about making sure a woman is in the correct group. Has been more than one story of a Diva who didn't end up in the correct ability level to start with. Usually because of being too shy to talk about her goals and/or background with lessons, or worrying about getting in too good a group for whatever reason. If someone is doing a group lesson, or a lesson with a very experienced instructor, for the first time, they may not know what's possible. Meaning they would be in the "do not know what they do not know" stage of learning. Then it's more up to the organizer and/or instructor to help guide them into the correct group, even if that means changing groups after the first lesson.

The Taos Ladies Ski Week did not have a ski off. Women were asked questions. Some had done Ski Weeks before so they knew there level. Others were put in a starting group based on the answers to questions or their own request. One of the advanced skiers put herself in Level 8 (of 10) because she'd been in a Level 10 group during a previous season that had a small group of friends who were . . . not her type . . .. But she moved herself up the next day because she was bored in Level 8. She was a retired firefighter, so used to being assertive when necessary.
 

Jenny

Angel Diva
#39
I was in the Gore Ladies program a few years ago. I would like to mention the things I didn't like so you can avoid them when creating your program.

1. Small classes are required. One, or even two, instructors are insufficient for a group of 12-15 women. Try to keep it at 5 women per group to allow for instruction. Just watching us ski without personal input wastes my time.

2. Constructive criticism and effective teaching is required. One instructor in the Ladies program at Gore told me that they tried to keep it positive for the women. Women see criticism as hurtful? There has to be a happy medium. If I'm not told that I am in the backseat, how will I know if I am doing it wrong? I paid for the lesson, teach me. Teach me in a positive way. I'm not a snowflake whose feelings get hurt.

3. Don't be afraid to move women around if they are holding the group back. I paid for the lesson, as did the other women in the group.

4. Don't be afraid to advance someone, either. If someone is not challenged/not learning in the level she started in, bring her into the advanced group where she gets value for her money.

I wish I could remember the name of the Diva who impressed me so much last season with her group class. I remember how she felt so uncomfortable in the steep and deep and thought she was holding the group back. The instructor told her that she was in the right class. I was so impressed with her courage to try and the success she found. Do you remember her story? She needs to be linked into this topic.
That was @Albertan ski girl.
 

Jilly

Moderator
Staff member
#40
2ski2morrow has some valid points that should pertain to any group lesson. When I was teaching a never-ever group, the group split as some got the concept and some didn't. I split the group and worked with both as I could. Got a reprimand from the supervisor..."that's not how we do things here". My only question to him was..."did the customer complain". "No another supervisor saw you and that's not done here". So the customer didn't complain, in fact asked for me the next day. Up yours buddy!!

I do like the idea of an actual ski off for a multi day event. Both times I've done the WB clinic we did a ski off. The last time out, they asked me if I would like to move up a group. Being there before, I knew that it was a tough 2 days. So no, I don't want to go up a level. Plus I was watching how she was teaching, so I could work on my next CSIA level. In fact the last run of Sunday, we were in the trees and the instructor said to me...."you're not comfortable in here, are you?" You got that right sista...I'm tired and just want to get out of here!! But my brain said, she wouldn't take us in here if she didn't think we could do it! That means she had my trust. And that is big thing in teaching. If you don't connect, learning is not going to happen.
 

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