What is good or bad in a ski lesson?

[tahoeaussie]

Was this comment based on experiences in group lessons or private lessons where you picked an instructor based on a personal recommendation? Most of my lessons with Level 3 instructors in the past 15 years have been with male instructors with 20+ years of experience. They have all been very good at asking questions and explaining stuff in assorted ways to people who learned differently during the same lesson. No different than the L3 female instructors. It took a while to learn how to get recommendations.


Agree that solo private or semi-private lessons are best for advanced skiers.

Although one exception would be Taos Ski Weeks. Spending a week doing 6 consecutive morning lessons are worthwhile for 95% of skiers really interested in improving their technique over the long run, regardless of age or ability level. People are usually pretty surprised the cost is under $500.

Another exception I know about first-hand is Winter Park, which has group lessons for all ability levels. I know one of the L3 instructors who teaches the black or double-black lessons. He rarely has more than 1 or 2 students.

I'll take an assumption that the reason you mostly hav male instructors in the top levels is that there are more that have the certification than there are women. And there are some absolutely amazing male ones as well.

Ski weeks are so great as there's time and flexibility to move groups and then there's consistency of focus as well too.
Thanks

 

[marzNC]

I'll take an assumption that the reason you mostly hav male instructors in the top levels is that there are more that have the certification than there are women. And there are some absolutely amazing male ones as well.

Ski weeks are so great as there's time and flexibility to move groups and then there's consistency of focus as well too.
Thanks

While it's certainly true there are fewer L3 female instructors at any given resort, in my situation I could stick with female L3 instructors with 20+ years of experience most of the places where I opt to do semi-private lessons. My analytical nature and strong self-confidence is probably a factor as to why I do well with men or women teaching me a sport. I have male and female ski/travel buddies who join me in semi-private lessons.

If you are talking about a Taos Ski Week, it's not a multi-week program. A Taos Ski Week is six consecutive morning lessons in the same week, Sunday through Friday for a set price. While the price has gone up in recent years, it's still under $500, depending on the amount a student tips the instructor. Taos Ski Weeks were created by Jean Mayer decades ago.

 

[tahoeaussie]

While it's certainly true there are fewer L3 female instructors at any given resort, in my situation I could stick with female L3 instructors with 20+ years of experience most of the places where I opt to do semi-private lessons. My analytical nature and strong self-confidence is probably a factor as to why I do well with men or women teaching me a sport. I have male and female ski/travel buddies who join me in semi-private lessons.

If you are talking about a Taos Ski Week, it's not a multi-week program. A Taos Ski Week is six consecutive morning lessons in the same week, Sunday through Friday for a set price. While the price has gone up in recent years, it's still under $500, depending on the amount a student tips the instructor. Taos Ski Weeks were created by Jean Mayer decades ago.

She weeks used to be common

 

[Jerez]

Taos also has a locals multiweek program. Once a week for 6 weeks. Santa Fe also. It's a great option because you are with the same person and students and it gives the instructor plenty of time to give personal feedback and instruction to each student. Also time to adjust and move folks to more appropriate groups as needed.

 

[Jerez]

I haven't done many privates. But a really great deal is the "Pro Tips" program at Winter Park. It is a private lesson with upper level instructors that lasts one hour and is done before opening... from 8 to 9 am. You have the hill mostly to yourself and it is one on one for $99. The focus is on technique though. Not useful if you are looking for off piste instruction...

 

[marzNC]

She weeks used to be common

The difference may be that Taos started out by providing free lessons before Jean Mayer developed his version of a ski week to help move TSV to the next level as a resort people wanted to travel to from places like Chicago. It was based on a lesson program in the European Alps.

Was there a Tahoe resort that had a ski week offering?

 

[santacruz skier]

The difference may be that Taos started out by providing free lessons before Jean Mayer developed his version of a ski week to help move TSV to the next level as a resort people wanted to travel to from places like Chicago. It was based on a lesson program in the European Alps.

Was there a Tahoe resort that had a ski week offering?

Sugar Bowl used to.

 

[snoWYmonkey]

Sugar Bowl used to.

Jackson Hole as well back in the euro method days

 

[tahoeaussie]

The difference may be that Taos started out by providing free lessons before Jean Mayer developed his version of a ski week to help move TSV to the next level as a resort people wanted to travel to from places like Chicago. It was based on a lesson program in the European Alps.

Was there a Tahoe resort that had a ski week offering?

I'm in Tahoe. I will work at Palisades.
We have women of winter programs on Sunday and Wednesday am's. We get a lot of regulars and some pretty expert level skiers too.
We have 2 3 day women's groups that sell out in minutes. I wish they offered more as the demand is there.
We also have a season program at Alpine meadows that's unlimited lessons all winter, I think they are afternoons only and also they tend to get regulars.

One hack I know is to get a group of friends usually max 5 and do a private and you end up with group rates and you pick your group.
Can also pick your instructor too

 

[Bookworm]

Don't know if anyone else has said this, but I'm a visual learner and I like to see how to do something as well as how NOT to do it. For example: Laura, here's what you are doing and it's wrong. Here's the right way.

 

[BackCountryGirl]

I haven't been active on the site for a long time, but I have found this to be the most interesting thread in ages. I'm a Level 3 who hasn't taught in a snow sports school in 12 years (although I've done snowsport school instructor training), having moved to a racing program where I have worked with kids of every age under 13. I also rarely taught adults when I was in schools. Many Level 3's shy away from kids, but I think I gravitated to them because I realized how hard it was to meet the needs of every adult in a group lesson. Kids are just so much more flexible, literally and figuratively.

But I am enjoying being reminded how much People Skills matter; how important it is in group lessons to vary delivery, your position when demoing, the method of giving feedback; how too much talking is the death of a good lesson; and how tough it is to make changes in guest performance in a one-off 2 or 4 hour lesson (unless the guest is a never-ever). Thanks to those non-pros who weighed in. Your comments need to be catalogued and shared throughout PSIA!

One us needs to turn this into an article for our regional newsletter or 32°!

 

[snoWYmonkey]

@BackCountryGirl As you are keeping somewhat current with training, you'll be happy to note that PSIA has recently and formally included people skills into the teaching model and the examination process. Having grown up as a kid in the French system, I always felt that PSIA was a step ahead in really focusing on what the guest wants, rather than a pure mechanical skills approach. It keeps the teaching fun, trying to figure it out and infuse the lesson with the want or wants while not I ignoring the needs, especially safety ones.
I did finish up my USSA 200 coaching and while complementary the focus is understandably different.

 

[tahoeaussie]

I haven't been active on the site for a long time, but I have found this to be the most interesting thread in ages. I'm a Level 3 who hasn't taught in a snow sports school in 12 years (although I've done snowsport school instructor training), having moved to a racing program where I have worked with kids of every age under 13. I also rarely taught adults when I was in schools. Many Level 3's shy away from kids, but I think I gravitated to them because I realized how hard it was to meet the needs of every adult in a group lesson. Kids are just so much more flexible, literally and figuratively.

But I am enjoying being reminded how much People Skills matter; how important it is in group lessons to vary delivery, your position when demoing, the method of giving feedback; how too much talking is the death of a good lesson; and how tough it is to make changes in guest performance in a one-off 2 or 4 hour lesson (unless the guest is a never-ever). Thanks to those non-pros who weighed in. Your comments need to be catalogued and shared throughout PSIA!

One us needs to turn this into an article for our regional newsletter or 32°!

I have loved hearing everyone's stories, keep them coming.

And yes, so much gold here that needs to be shared (anonymously) so that training is guided toward the guest who is the one forking over the cash and wants to be heard and validated.

I have never had the patience for the kids much, so I always value people like you who love the kid lessons.

I love adults for all the reasons stated here. So many ways to achieve a goal. You need to know the technical for sure and then how to ask good questions and be flexible for all the learning styles.

 

[santacruz skier]

Don't know if anyone else has said this, but I'm a visual learner and I like to see how to do something as well as how NOT to do it. For example: Laura, here's what you are doing and it's wrong. Here's the right way.

Totally agree even though it's humbling when told "your skis are too close together, you're squatting your first turn when you get in steep terrain, you still ski old school...... Okay demonstrate what you want me to do and don't get all technical like "your hip flexors la di da"..... I'm a visual person and want to see it, that's why I like videos. Then I think, oh yeah, I see what she means...
I've been skiing since 1976 btw..... only Taos lessons the last few years.....

 

[-nat-]

Second (or third or fourth) on video. It says so much! My brother took some fun videos of me skiing and it was so instructive to see!

 

[santacruz skier]

I recently saw a video of me skiing a pretty steep area (ungroomed) in Breckenridge last February... First thing I thought was "What is all this up/down motion in my turns?" Okay, I need to work on that as it's no longer considered an efficient way to ski.

 

[SnowHot]

I've had the good fortune of getting into some really good lessons. @Skier31 and I have similar experiences and in fact, I'd take a lesson from her in a heartbeat.

I don't get too annoyed by an instructor as long as he/she can communicate like I like to learn.
One of my first lessons ever, I recall spending some time with the instructor talking to us at the beginning which I didn't understand at the time but he was simply getting an idea how we all learn. Someone may learn by feel, some need a demonstration and some (me) need to learn in layers, creating buidling blocks to get the end result.

The only times I got really annoyed in a lesson was when a clinic leader kept telling me to do something over and over and I wasn't getting it. Other students were, but not me.
He eventually said, "Trek! I keep telling you what to do and you're not doing it."
I replied, "Right? I'm not getting it and you keep telling me the same thing. Find a different way to tell me!"
Two days later I took a lesson from someone else and explained the situation. This new instructor had me doing it within two runs, mainly because he gave me the building blocks to make the move and then I felt it. After that I could go off feeling but I needed the mechanics to get there.

I guess I like an instructor who has the ability to teach each student in a manner that works for that student.

FWIW, I tried to be an instructor but after a rough winter making the attempt I realized its not my jam. Total respect for those who have the patience and skills to instruct.

 

[snoWYmonkey]

@SnowHot I had the exact same experience with an instructor for a snowmobile class just yelling the same instructions louder and louder. It was very clear to me that I was not understanding what he was trying to get me to do. Maybe I wasn't quite ready to execute but I didn't even understand what he meant and he was getting frustrated and I eventually got so frustrated that I didn't come back for day two of the camp. I was really bummed because the guy who runs the camp is phenomenal but he was not the guy I got paired with. Oh well! Now I know to ask for them to explain it differently or to show me what I'm doing versus what they want. As a student though I feel like I should not always be the one to have to ask for that though it doesn't hurt. I'm at a stage in my life where I just want what I paid for. As an instructor I always check in regularly to see if I'm on the right track with my guest or student. By giving them potential options in terms of answers to that question I hopefully help them feel comfortable being honest with me and telling me what's working and what's not working. I often do get redirections, and I love them.

 

[SnowHot]

As a student though I feel like I should not always be the one to have to ask for that though it doesn't hurt.

I do think good feedback from the student is helpful, just as I need feedback from a boot client to do a proper fit, but you shouldn't have to explain why you didn't get it that gazillionth time he yells the same thing at you. By then he should get a clue to do it differently. If he/she doesn't get it, then perhaps he should evaluate his own merits as an instructor.

I'm at a stage in my life where I just want what I paid for.

Exactly.
I don't have time or patience to pay good money for instruction that leaves me cold.

Another thing to share with resort employees, instructors and other positions as well.

When you're out in public be conscience of how you communicate with others around you and especially pay attention to who can overhear.

I was considering a lesson at a resort a few years ago and just happened to overhear two instructors in the lodge debating about their different methodology. I can' explain exactly what I found offputting but I know they didn't agree with each other and though that is not an issue in and of itself they were clearly annoyed with each other and turned the conversation into a religious war of sorts.
I decided to not get a lesson at that resort.

Another instance was just a few days ago, after I had published an article on SkiTalk about being a steward to the growth of the sport and giving some grace to novice skiers; I watched a young man struggling to get on and off the lift at our local hill. I smiled and asked him if he was having fun, he nodded and smiled back.
When he got the the top he was acting quite anxious about the terrain in front of him, obviously over his head.
Over my shoulder I heard two guys talking about how this young man was dressed, pants above his rental boots (size 29) and how he was carrying his poles, no helmet and a gucci back pack.
When I looked over my shoulder I realized that one of the men talking was a patroller. That was disappointing at best. I decided to go to the young guy and offer some advice/help, but he took off in his power wedge and that was that.
I also mentioned to the patroller that he may have an added responsibilty to be an advocate for novice skiers. He didn't need to help him but he certainly shouldn't be mocking him.


The point is, what you say and how you say it when in uniform can make an impression on those who may over hear and you don't know who may be listening.

 

[snoWYmonkey]

@SnowHot so many good points you bring up. At the end of the day I think that while we can all objectively provide a good teaching experience or a good boot fitting experience there will be a certain amount of chemistry as well as communication that is either shared or not shared and that can be hard to overcome sometimes. I also know that sometimes students look like they're having the worst day of their life and to my surprise I hear that they really enjoyed the lesson and come to understand that they are just so focused that smiling and interacting socially is beyond their ability in the moment that they're learning. There is many approaches as there are people. Sometimes I am shocked by what constitutes a great instructor in one person's eyes but it's also a good reminder that my Approach probably doesn't work for everyone. I wish I could have you as my boot fitter!

As for how we talk about the people who for whatever reason don't fit the traditional mold of what we think a mountain athlete should look like, it is really disappointing to hear the judgment piece. There's nothing I love more than people who are out there skiing in their snowmobile gear or hunting gear or jeans or even a lot of the young women who ski and skirts because that is what their culture demands. I just love it that they're having fun and actually in some ways are more true to the actual activity than all the paraphernalia that surrounds it. Except maybe a good pair of boots!