What is good or bad in a ski lesson?

[tahoeaussie]

As a fellow instructor I can't wait to hear what students find to be annoying. That one intrigues me!

From experience, having been dropped by students for a myriad of reasons, but also with many returning annually for over 23 years of coaching, some even coming out for week long lessons three times a season, I can without any hesitation state that there are as many wants as there are skiers.

Those wants have changed year to year and even day to day for many of my returners.

The variety of humans and helping them meet their stated, or sometimes undefined wants, is what keeps me in the game.

I often think of we can ask the right questions we are more likely to succeed together. Then there’s the part about feeling safe enough to really ask for what you want.
I started asking how dedicated are you to to the sport to some women. Some were partly dedicated And some all in,
this helped me learn how much teaching versus having a fun day on the mountain was needed

 

[tahoeaussie]

@tahoeaussie I suspected that your smile comment was part of a deeper purpose and fits into the lesson plan. This is why I try to imagine the context when I hear odd bits and pieces of other lessons without having been there from the beginning. The relaxation piece is huge. I use something similar by reminding students to exhale. Hard to tense up on the exhale and an inhale tends to follow aiding with muscle and brain oxygenation. Thank you for not taking it in any as a criticism.

It’s so good to have open dialogue . And we can never know why something is great for one and not another. I love learning more and then more understanding.

I love doing breath work as well. I use it aggressively and passively depending on my intention .

thanks for the discussion

 

[Skier31]

For sure when deep in changing a pattern of movement we can have deep focus. I also will do this. I am also not smiling all the time as well. It was really just one cue to try out and play with.

Have you been in lessons where it’s easy and or hard to speak up?
if so, what would you say made either good or bad?

I find when there’s not much back and forth and feeling like a team, I shut down and just be there and leave annoyed.

When I am paying for a lesson, I have no problem speaking up. I have also learned to make my expectations clear from the beginning.

I have kept my mouth shut in PSIA clinics or some ski school clinics. I usually just avoid those trainers who don't meet my expectations. I make sure I provide positive feedback in reviews along with constructive ideas.

 

[tahoeaussie]

When I am paying for a lesson, I have no problem speaking up. I have also learned to make my expectations clear from the beginning.

I have kept my mouth shut in PSIA clinics or some ski school clinics. I usually just avoid those trainers who don't meet my expectations. I make sure I provide positive feedback in reviews along with constructive ideas.

Same

 

[marzNC]

What I learned to appreciate as I took more lessons from different instructors was how an instructor who didn't already know me started the lesson. In particular, what questions were asked in the first 10-15 minutes. Could be on the first lift ride or could be after seeing some turns on the first warm up run, or both. The more experienced instructors (20+ years as PSIA Level 3 or 2) were generally better at asking questions that meant the lesson plan they formulated in the next 5-10 minutes was more effective right from the start.

What can be less satisfying is when a drill or concept doesn't make sense but the instructor simply repeats the same description when asked for clarification. I find that rarely happens with Level 3 instructors.

 

[DebbieSue]

What I learned to appreciate as I took more lessons from different instructors was how an instructor who didn't already know me started the lesson. In particular, what questions were asked in the first 10-15 minutes. Could be on the first lift ride or could be after seeing some turns on the first warm up run, or both. The more experienced instructors (20+ years as PSIA Level 3 or 2) were generally better at asking questions that meant the lesson plan they formulated in the next 5-10 minutes was more effective right from the start.

What can be less satisfying is when a drill or concept doesn't make sense but the instructor simply repeats the same description when asked for clarification. I find that rarely happens with Level 3 instructors.

An important lesson I learned from Diva non-instructor, none other than @marzNC . . . . Level 3 instructors are able to connect with learners in an exceptional way. They ask questions about fitness, learning style, goals. I have found that they pride themselves on figuring out how to help the student(s)reach a break through. It is also informative to see how they coach the other members of the group. I'm not usually someone who seeks the elite for myself . . . but for ski instruction, for reaching advanced goals, the Level 3 status has important impact.

 

[brooksnow]

This is an interesting discussion, from both sides. As a 25-year level 2 instructor I like to hear what people think about lessons. I also participate in as many training sessions as I can during the season and as a participant have many of the same comments I see here. I don't like not getting feedback.

The more experienced instructors (20+ years as PSIA Level 3 or 2) were generally better at asking questions

Wondering what sort of questions you find most effective.

 

[marzNC]

This is an interesting discussion, from both sides. As a 25-year level 2 instructor I like to hear what people think about lessons. I also participate in as many training sessions as I can during the season and as a participant have many of the same comments I see here. I don't like not getting feedback.


Wondering what sort of questions you find most effective.

Perhaps the questions that make a difference aren't so much about ski technique and goals as they are about how someone learns. What I know is that based on my lesson experiences, I have stuff that I tell a new instructor as part of a brief self-introduction right at the start of a lesson. Saying up front that I am a visual learner became a habit. Also tend to make it clear I like working on technique, including fundamentals, as opposed to wanting a guide for adventure skiing for most of the lesson.

Here's a story about a lesson with a shy teen boy. AY is the son of a good friend. I took him, his little sister, and their mother to Massanutten, where they all learned to ski. AY was a solid advanced skier after ski school at Mnut starting at age 6, ski school at Alta during a few spring break trips, and a Taos Ski Week. He did a 3-hour morning lesson at Bridger Bowl together with me and my primary ski buddy, Bill (about 70). I first worked with Ric in 2011 before and after a Diva West at Big Sky. Bill and I had done a couple lessons with the instructor, Ric, in recent years.

Ric started by asking the usual questions about our goals. Bill and I had some ideas. AY didn't really say anything. After a run or two, Ric decided to ride up separately with each of us. That wasn't what he'd done in the past. It was clear he wanted to chat with AY alone. I know Ric asked AY what his favorite subjects were in school. After finding out that the kid liked math and science, in particular physics, Ric would explain stuff with more emphasis on mechanics such as how gravity impacts making turns. Fair to say he said things later on in the lesson that I'd never heard him say before. I supposed the key point is that Ric didn't just keep teaching without trying to find out more about AY.

For the two Private Ski Weeks I've done with Derek, @DebbieSue was one of the friends I asked to join me. The other students were also compatible older advanced skiers who I had skied with before. When we did drills or had just skied a short section of moguls, Derek would ask us questions. The advantage of having 6 consecutive lessons was that at least by the second day, we were less shy about saying something even if we weren't quite sure about the answers.

 

[AJM]

I've learnt so much in the last few seasons from a guy (L3) that I've connected with and who was resposible for organizing the doomed camp I was supposed to attend this last season (didnt happen due to lack of snow) and it all came from him taking a couple of runs with me and me asking him to help me stop skidding my turns and its taken off from there. He now just throws out a couple of simple tips (see @Eera post in keeping it simple) to me every week or so as he comes across me on the hill and its been fantastic, no complicated explanations just "try this" or "slow down the top of the turn".
Its not formal lessons as such, which has been a disaster for me over the years, just some gold nuggets thrown out. I guess its just the connection I have with him and my knowing what I needed to fix and he's just taken it from there.

 

[Posse Mama]

I heartily agree with all of this, except I DO like to follow the instructor. I'm a visual learner, and it helps to ski behind someone who's doing what I'm supposed to be doing. If that's all the lesson is, however, then no.

I love watching the instructor ski, perform the perfect demo. I prefer when they ski towards me and past me. I find it helpful when the instructors ski pants have highlighted knees. Fancy ski pants or some washi tape.

 

[Posse Mama]

I was fortunate to have many years as an active member of ASIA(Amateur Ski Instructor Assoc) ASIA has been gone for years but the level of instruction was amazing with an incredible price point. I had many different instructors but learned from each one, although I didn't always get it during the lesson. The benefit of skiing with the same person for two days was amazing. I have kept a list of helpful drills and tips for decades. I found the midweek lessons at Sugarloaf to be helpful as well.
Same instructor for several days in a row really helps to refine movement. I prefer to take group lessons if everyone is comfortable having feedback shared. It offers another learning opportunity.
As a student it is my job to show up on time, ready to go with an open mind. I expect to slow things down, hear quality, concise feedback with suggestions for fixes. I love learning an instructor's bag of tricks that frequently comes with age and experience.

 

[Skier31]

I love watching the instructor ski, perform the perfect demo. I prefer when they ski towards me and past me. I find it helpful when the instructors ski pants have highlighted knees. Fancy ski pants or some washi tape.

This is a great example of some thing that people can let the instructor know at the beginning of the class. I love it when people give me specific information about themselves so that I can make sure it happens.

 

[Jerez]

I like it when an instructor leaves me with "homework." One or two things to work on after the lesson. I don't think it's feasible to expect to fully internalize physical movement patterns during one lesson and it's helpful to have things to work on for days after. Super important to me is to have a cue (preferably physical) so that I know when I'm doing it right or at least better, rather than ingraining a bad pattern.

 

[DebbieSue]

This is an interesting discussion, from both sides. As a 25-year level 2 instructor I like to hear what people think about lessons. I also participate in as many training sessions as I can during the season and as a participant have many of the same comments I see here. I don't like not getting feedback.


Wondering what sort of questions you find most effective.

I like when an instructor asks what type of learner I am…visual, verbal cues, etc etc.
Initially I wasn’t sure…but now I know I’m visual…I like to try to copy, shadow, follow the instructor. I also like when the instructor insists on rotating the order of who follows him/her. I learn from following the followers too! I particularly like being “led” thru anything steep, or a new challenge like even a small cornice. I hate involuntary air. I have less fear of being out of control and thus freezing if I can shadow /trail a controlled descent. My urge is to avoid the fall line but then I get stuck in traverses with no place to turn, so best to shadow a better skier who stays in (on?) the fall line.

 

[HuntersEmma57]

Just wondering how people like to learn. What do you find worthy of your time and what's not?
Like what's an annoying thing instructors often do and then what would you wish they did more of?

Do you like drills with a learning goal in mind or do you prefer a concept as a goal?

I've taught skiing for 35 years and would love to know what students REALLY want.

I recommend saving up for private lessons. I have found that group lessons and even clinics end up having to teach to the lowest person's ski level and were generally a frustrating waste of time for those with more actual advanced skills. Ski schools need to do a much better job of assessing skill levels and grouping more appropriately and it should not be based on self-reporting.
I've even tried small group lessons (2-4 people) and the same thing happened. Result: I stopped taking lessons or attending clinics.
What I have experienced first hand is that self-reporting of ski levels is deeply skewed. Some one-ski-vacation-a-year skiers felt that after 20 years of that they should be considered advanced skiers. I wanna be clear, I recognize and appreciate that only a small percentage of people get to ski as much as they'd want or like. I also firmly believe there's joy to be had on greens and blues - no shame. But when they are in the wrong level group lesson, it's a costly bummer for everyone else.
Here's my assessment tip for ski instructors: The best way to assess skill level is to look at the skis and boots. How wide and long are the skis? The next biggest tell is how people use their poles even on the flats and in the lift line. Can they skate or do they stiff-legged shuffle? How is their pole plant?
Conversely, some women underestimate their skills and capacity so get badly matched (that'd be me).
Frankly, I found most female instructors to be more dialed in to how the turns and the body should feel, where you should feel pressure, body position etc. and are much more adept at explaining things differently to different people (other women in particular). Most of the male instructors I've had talked about themselves and simply repeated the same instruction in the same way only louder no matter how many folks clearly weren't getting it.
For me, adjusting to powder after years of skiing man-made hardpack was challenging and I decided to try lessons again. I saved up for months to afford a full-day private lesson with a woman who led the Steeps Clinics at Jackson. She asked a series of questions: Where do you ski and how often? What kinds of skiing to you like (on/off piste) and where was I struggling, what made me uncomfortable, and what did I think I was doing "wrong." Within 45 minutes, she'd diagnosed a couple of really small form tweaks and timing issues and I spent the next 5+ hours "practicing" while we skied and played all day. She had me on steeps, thru technical tree runs, and even made me into an adept mogul skier (a 20 minute lesson on leg work and where to pivot on the mogul). I had been so close for so long and she got me to the other side. The very best thing she did was build my confidence. I have the texts from that day that calling it the very best day of my ski life. Six years later, it's still in the Top 10.

 

[Jerez]

The key is knowing which instructor to have. Spending the kind of money that privates cost these days as a ski school walk up can be a disaster.

 

[marzNC]

Frankly, I found most female instructors to be more dialed in to how the turns and the body should feel, where you should feel pressure, body position etc. and are much more adept at explaining things differently to different people (other women in particular). Most of the male instructors I've had talked about themselves and simply repeated the same instruction in the same way only louder no matter how many folks clearly weren't getting it.

Was this comment based on experiences in group lessons or private lessons where you picked an instructor based on a personal recommendation? Most of my lessons with Level 3 instructors in the past 15 years have been with male instructors with 20+ years of experience. They have all been very good at asking questions and explaining stuff in assorted ways to people who learned differently during the same lesson. No different than the L3 female instructors. It took a while to learn how to get recommendations.

I recommend saving up for private lessons. I have found that group lessons and even clinics end up having to teach to the lowest person's ski level and were generally a frustrating waste of time for those with more actual advanced skills. Ski schools need to do a much better job of assessing skill levels and grouping more appropriately and it should not be based on self-reporting.
I've even tried small group lessons (2-4 people) and the same thing happened. Result: I stopped taking lessons or attending clinics.

Agree that solo private or semi-private lessons are best for advanced skiers.

Although one exception would be Taos Ski Weeks. Spending a week doing 6 consecutive morning lessons are worthwhile for 95% of skiers really interested in improving their technique over the long run, regardless of age or ability level. People are usually pretty surprised the cost is under $500.

Another exception I know about first-hand is Winter Park, which has group lessons for all ability levels. I know one of the L3 instructors who teaches the black or double-black lessons. He rarely has more than 1 or 2 students.

 

[HuntersEmma57]

Was this comment based on experiences in group lessons or private lessons where you picked an instructor based on a personal recommendation? Most of my lessons with Level 3 instructors in the past 15 years have been with male instructors with 20+ years of experience. They have all been very good at asking questions and explaining stuff in assorted ways to people who learned differently during the same lesson. No different than the L3 female instructors. It took a while to learn how to get recommendations.


Agree that solo private or semi-private lessons are best for advanced skiers.

Although one exception would be Taos Ski Weeks. Spending a week doing 6 consecutive morning lessons are worthwhile for 95% of skiers really interested in improving their technique over the long run, regardless of age or ability level. People are usually pretty surprised the cost is under $500.

Another exception I know about first-hand is Winter Park, which has group lessons for all ability levels. I know one of the L3 instructors who teaches the black or double-black lessons. He rarely has more than 1 or 2 students.

My negative experiences were mostly with unknown instructors and largely at eastern US resorts. Telemark clinics were the worst I remind myself that even pros continue to work with coaches throughout their entire careers. My super expert husband is transitioning from telemark to alpine and has had a few technique lapses. He's confident enough to ask for pointers. Taos sounds intriguing.

 

[tahoeaussie]

I recommend saving up for private lessons. I have found that group lessons and even clinics end up having to teach to the lowest person's ski level and were generally a frustrating waste of time for those with more actual advanced skills. Ski schools need to do a much better job of assessing skill levels and grouping more appropriately and it should not be based on self-reporting.
I've even tried small group lessons (2-4 people) and the same thing happened. Result: I stopped taking lessons or attending clinics.
What I have experienced first hand is that self-reporting of ski levels is deeply skewed. Some one-ski-vacation-a-year skiers felt that after 20 years of that they should be considered advanced skiers. I wanna be clear, I recognize and appreciate that only a small percentage of people get to ski as much as they'd want or like. I also firmly believe there's joy to be had on greens and blues - no shame. But when they are in the wrong level group lesson, it's a costly bummer for everyone else.
Here's my assessment tip for ski instructors: The best way to assess skill level is to look at the skis and boots. How wide and long are the skis? The next biggest tell is how people use their poles even on the flats and in the lift line. Can they skate or do they stiff-legged shuffle? How is their pole plant?
Conversely, some women underestimate their skills and capacity so get badly matched (that'd be me).
Frankly, I found most female instructors to be more dialed in to how the turns and the body should feel, where you should feel pressure, body position etc. and are much more adept at explaining things differently to different people (other women in particular). Most of the male instructors I've had talked about themselves and simply repeated the same instruction in the same way only louder no matter how many folks clearly weren't getting it.
For me, adjusting to powder after years of skiing man-made hardpack was challenging and I decided to try lessons again. I saved up for months to afford a full-day private lesson with a woman who led the Steeps Clinics at Jackson. She asked a series of questions: Where do you ski and how often? What kinds of skiing to you like (on/off piste) and where was I struggling, what made me uncomfortable, and what did I think I was doing "wrong." Within 45 minutes, she'd diagnosed a couple of really small form tweaks and timing issues and I spent the next 5+ hours "practicing" while we skied and played all day. She had me on steeps, thru technical tree runs, and even made me into an adept mogul skier (a 20 minute lesson on leg work and where to pivot on the mogul). I had been so close for so long and she got me to the other side. The very best thing she did was build my confidence. I have the texts from that day that calling it the very best day of my ski life. Six years later, it's still in the Top 10.

Fantastic feedback and I agree with you on all of it.
Back in the day we used to do a ski split, where we all went on a run and watched everyone ski, that worked pretty well.
Now we do the verbal splits and all the issues you mention do happen.
I am seasoned enough to have a fair idea by the gear, like you mentioned and how they carry themselves too.
And yes over and under estimating is common and more along gender lines like you mentioned.

The higher up lessons tend to be more male instructors, partly as many women don't manage to get to the top certification for a myriad of reasons. I could go on and on about this topic )

I'm so glad you got the value you needed from the private lesson and even though you had to save up, sounds like a dream come true.

I really appreciate your comments which validate my thoughts.

Thanks

 

[tahoeaussie]

The key is knowing which instructor to have. Spending the kind of money that privates cost these days as a ski school walk up can be a disaster.

Absolutely.
Do you feel as though you have what you need to make that work for you?