What’s up with tip lead?

[santacruz skier]

@liquidfeet pls demonstrate that move in Taos ! I always thought we shouldn't lift the tips or the tails......think I may have been accused by Taos instructor of some tip lead.... not to mention skis too close together and occasionally if on something steep squatting too much...

 

[marzNC]

This is a movement for me being noted on groomers currently. Not sure if it is there in bumps too as we haven’t had much of those to ski during these lessons currently.

When I had a lot of tip lead, it happened for all turns anywhere. It was an old habit.

I tried to create a lot of tip lead today (at Massanutten) on an intermediate groomer. Was actually hard to do. Guess that means that 5+ seasons working to get rid of it has resulted in new muscle memory.

To see the tips of my skis, I glance down quickly and back up again. Hard to look at more then 3-4 consecutive turns though.

 

[skinnyfootskis]

Too much tip lead differential can become a hindrance in most situations and impacts us in different ways.

Ideally, the only fix needed is pulling back the inside ski, but to me that does not necessarily fix the underlying problem of proper weight distribution. It definitely makes it impossible to achieve though.

By this comment I mean that we pull it back in order to be able to have it be more underneath our body/ hips/center of mass. This in turn allows us to actually pressure the ski downward which is not possible if the foot and ski are too far ahead of the outside ski and our body over that ski.

Sure, we want our weight to be pressuring the outside ski more, but at the end of the turn as we plan our transition to the new turn we ideally want to be thinking 50/50 weight distribution and starting to really pressure what will become the new outside ski.

If that ski is too far ahead, we can't stand on or over it, and we either have to do a weird turn initiation or delay the turn initation as we did not have that foot ready to be pressured and stood upon early enough. Also know as being off balance from side to side rather than fore/aft balance.

Aside from messing up our ability to flow from turn to turn, not having enough weight on the old inside ski because of too much tip lead carries the very real risk of a serious case of the banana splits in powder or chop. The inside ski at the end of the turn has zero weight on it and gets deflected by a pile of snow and the tips go on their merry way in two different directions.

Pulling back the inside ski allows for more even weight distribution in anticipation of transition, the one time we should be 50/50 even if only for a nanosecond.

It is possible to pull it back so much that it feels wholly unnatural. This is too much. I gauge it by asking myself, could I step up and onto the inside/uphill ski of I needed to? Would I fall if I lost the edge of my outside ski or is the other leg right there under me too where I can use it?

What I love about the Josh video is how he has both legs bent at the knees. Many skiers are bracing that outside leg with zero flex and I suspect that is not helping the tip lead issue one bit.

Many potential drills to help reduce the lead and bring the leg back under. The simplest is the one he mentions. Setting up for two footed hops in a traverse is sometimes enough without actually doing the hop to tell me if both legs are functionally under me and usable.

Two weighted skis are better than alternating back and forth between one and the other. I look at racers snow spray coming from both skis as a reminder. Reducing tip lead promotes stable skiing and quicker turn to turn flow.

That’s what my Taos teacher said last week.

 

[lisamamot]

I also received feedback from the same instructor regarding a bit of extra tip lead and it was new feedback for me as well.

After reading through the thread here, and watching the video, today I focused a bit on seeing/correcting my tip lead. I found if I unweighted a little less, and focused on bringing my heel back a touch not only did the tip lead resolve, but it made me feel more stable and grounded. I am quite sure while I was working on that something else went to crap, lol.

As said instructor is fond of saying..."practice makes permanent". Sadly, that applies to both the good things we purposefully practice, and the habits we have accumulated over the years that are tough to break. I will continue to tweak here and there to become more efficient so I can enjoy this sport, and the un-groomed terrain I love, for as long as possible.

 

[liquidfeet]

@liquidfeet pls demonstrate that move in Taos ! I always thought we shouldn't lift the tips or the tails......think I may have been accused by Taos instructor of some tip lead.... not to mention skis too close together and occasionally if on something steep squatting too much...

If you dorsiflex as you do this, you can keep the whole foot/boot/ski on the snow. The tip still gets more pressure and the tail still lightens. All the good stuff still happens, whether the tail actually lifts or not.

However, do not lift the tip. You have to move the foot forward to lift the tip and the whole ski becomes non-functioning, not to mention you will be back-seat when you put that foot out in front and lift the tip.

 

[marzNC]

If you dorsiflex as you do this, you can keep the whole foot/boot/ski on the snow. The tip still gets more pressure and the tail still lightens. All the good stuff still happens, whether the tail actually lifts or not.

However, do not lift the tip. You have to move the foot forward to lift the tip and the whole ski becomes non-functioning, not to mention you will be back-seat when you put that foot out in front and lift the tip.

Lifting the tail and keeping the tip on the snow is a drill that I was exposed to at Elk during a full-day Women's Clinic around 2015. The Level 3 instructor also suggested "showing the base" of the lifted ski to the other ski. Not as a way to ski, but as a drill to exaggerate the movement of the leg during the start of a turn. Fast forward to December 2022 . . . our Wolf Creek instructor brought up the same drill. He's a Level 3 who has about 40 years of experience teaching at two destination resorts in Colorado. He explicitly said that after doing the drill a few times, it was fine to leave the tail on the snow. The point of lifting it initially was to feel something different that was probably not happening optimally. The drill is done on an easy blue groomer to start with. Later on, it becomes possible to do on a steeper groomer or even in snow that's cut up.

There was no mention of "tip lead" when this drill was done. Fair to say that if the tail is lifted, it would be very hard to have a lot of tip lead at the same time.

 

[MissySki]

Lifting the tail and keeping the tip on the snow is a drill that I was exposed to at Elk during a full-day Women's Clinic around 2015. The Level 3 instructor also suggested "showing the base" of the lifted ski to the other ski. Not as a way to ski, but as a drill to exaggerate the movement of the leg during the start of a turn. Fast forward to December 2022 . . . our Wolf Creek instructor brought up the same drill. He's a Level 3 who has about 40 years of experience teaching at two destination resorts in Colorado. He explicitly said that after doing the drill a few times, it was fine to leave the tail on the snow. The point of lifting it initially was to feel something different that was probably not happening optimally. The drill is done on an easy blue groomer to start with. Later on, it becomes possible to do on a steeper groomer or even in snow that's cut up.

There was no mention of "tip lead" when this drill was done. Fair to say that if the tail is lifted, it would be very hard to have a lot of tip lead at the same time.

I’ve done this drill as well, including with the same instructor I was with for the tip lead thing. He uses this drill as a way to get forward, says he starts out each day with this drill for a few turns at the beginning of each run. It’s a good way of setting up where you should be fore aft because you cannot properly do the drill if you are in the backseat. He did not mention it in relation to the tip lead issue.. When I was in CO last week I was also skiing with an instructor/guide for part of the time and he used this same drill for a few people in my group to get them more forward. My instructor at Sunday River calls it “scribe” because the LTE should trace a faint mark in the snow with the tip during it.

 

[marzNC]

I’ve done this drill as well, including with the same instructor I was with for the tip lead thing. He uses this drill as a way to get forward, says he starts out each day with this drill for a few turns at the beginning of each run. It’s a good way of setting up where you should be fore aft because you cannot properly do the drill if you are in the backseat. He did not mention it in relation to the tip lead issue.. When I was in CO last week I was also skiing with an instructor/guide for part of the time and he used this same drill for a few people in my group to get them more forward. My instructor at Sunday River calls it “scribe” because the LTE should trace a faint mark in the snow with the tip during it.

The instructor at Wolf Creek called it the "pencil drill." Now that name makes more sense.

It's only in the last few seasons that I've started being able to see more connections between different drills in terms of which ones have similar goals. It's become much easier to integrate something I haven't done or heard before into what I've already experienced. This is the 12th season that I've done some sort of lessons with Level 3 instructors, or Level 2 instructors with 15+ years of teaching experience. When I work with a favorite instructor, I always come away with 1-2 new drills that are easy to incorporate when skiing groomers. That makes practicing at my home hill much more effective than it was ten years ago.

The main advantage of the Taos Ski Week is that having a full week of morning lessons means it's more likely that a new movement can be ingrained by the end of the week. Assuming the student practices at least a bit in the afternoons. It's more likely after a Ski Week that some improvement is still there during the next ski trip. Much more so than with only one or two lessons, even if they are full-day lessons.

 

[liquidfeet]

Several good side effects are associated with lifting the tail.

Your foot/ski moves backwards compared to the other foot/ski.
Your knee flexes, thus shortening that leg.
As the knee flexes, that ski bears less weight and exerts less pressure on the snow.
Your foot's toe (and ski's tip) goes down and presses onto the snow, and your foot's heel (and ski tail) goes up and/or lightens.
The lost weight/pressure transfers automatically to the other ski.

 

[santacruz skier]

However, do not lift the tip. You have to move the foot forward to lift the tip and the whole ski becomes non-functioning, not to mention you will be back-seat when you put that foot out in front and lift the tip.

Totally agree with this.....

 

[MissySki]

So I skied with a different instructor this weekend, also a level 3 but female. I mentioned the comments I’d been getting on tip lead.. she didn’t seem overly concerned about this in my skiing. The comments I got never had to do with that, and I actually noticed when watching her skiing that she had a bit of tip lead at times as well. I found when trying to pull back my inner leg that it just felt extremely uncomfortable. I did work on weighting the inside ski more and that felt okay, so that might be a more helpful prompt for me.

So yeah, I dunno. The snow was great this weekend and my skiing felt good, especially with a few other little prompts I received throughout the last two days. I always feel like my skiing feels better after skiing with this instructor, I wish I could ski with her the first few runs of everyday to get adjusted lol. The comments that were most impactful feeling had more to do with timing within my turns and transitions. Also on prodding one hand I kept dropping a bit without noticing. I think I will continue to pay attention and play around with the tip lead things, but I’m not going to obsess over it when I get more bang for the buck with other cues in general.

 

[snoWYmonkey]

@MissySki I too have had to let the topic rest a bit. I have less time for training but a few years ago, in the same week, I received diametrically opposed feedback from 2 coaches. More tip said one, less said the other. Maybe it is more a question of where and when rather than how much. More mid turn does allow for those super high edge angle carved turns. Less at the end before transition sets me up for success.

I love it that you have your own primpter words that work. I love to look at video of skiers I admire before skiing on my phone, rather than other skiers on the slopes.

 

[marzNC]

I love to look at video of skiers I admire before skiing on my phone, rather than other skiers on the slopes.

A story from Taos . . .

In Feb 2018 there was very little snow at Taos so no black terrain was open. After a snowstorm midweek, there were small bumps on the side of a blue groomer. My group was the top group for Women's Ski Week, all advanced skiers. When we got to the bump section there was an intermediate group ahead of us. Our instructor told us not to watch them ski the bumps. She didn't want us to get their movements into our head at all.

 

[marzNC]

yeah, I dunno. The snow was great this weekend and my skiing felt good, especially with a few other little prompts I received throughout the last two days. I always feel like my skiing feels better after skiing with this instructor, I wish I could ski with her the first few runs of everyday to get adjusted lol. The comments that were most impactful feeling had more to do with timing within my turns and transitions. Also on prodding one hand I kept dropping a bit without noticing. I think I will continue to pay attention and play around with the tip lead things, but I’m not going to obsess over it when I get more bang for the buck with other cues in general.

Stick with what works!

Tip lead came up during the semi-private lesson for my crew of four at Wolf Creek in December. Our Level 3 instructor had 40+ years of experience at two destination resorts in Colorado before he moved (on purpose) to Wolf Creek. He pretty much said that it wasn't something he would focus on. Didn't like the idea of "pulling back" a ski at all.

 

[MissySki]

@snoWYmonkey @marzNC thanks for that, makes me feel a bit better to get some other perspectives like this. Seems like it might be a little subjective with some instructors focusing on it more than others. I will still keep it in mind when working on stuff, but try not to go down a rabbit hole and constantly focus on it either.

 

[marzNC]

. . . get some other perspectives . . .

On the first day of a regular Taos Ski Week a few years ago, the instructor told my class (advanced but not expert) that he would be showing us LOTS of different drills. He said that some would make sense and some wouldn't help much for a particular individual. He had adopted that approach rather than only doing a few drills over the course of the week because he wanted every student to learned useful drills they could work on in the future.

After taking lessons with 20+ Level 3 instructors in the last decade, it eventually became easier to integrate new tips or drills when working with a new instructor. Meaning I could understand better why two drills had the same objective. Or in some cases, how an instructor presented the same drill that I'd done before meant a better understanding of why it was important. For some fundamental skills, I am starting to understand how skills I was working on 5+ years ago on short groomers at Massanutten make a difference when I'm skiing powder or bumps in the Rockies. Will always be a work in progress when it comes to skiing deep powder.

 

[shadoj]

I had fun playing around a bit & paying attention to this today (making sure my inside foot had enough knee bend and dorsiflexion to track cleanly through a turn), especially on shallow slopes. Was a good exercise in keeping myself centered throughout the turn and changing radii. Seems to be a more nuanced thing for subtle refinement of one's existing dynamic technique (high intermediate-advanced+).

I did see an improvement in my own turns' symmetry and getting my hips back under myself (quicker edge turnover) when consciously thinking about this, plus engaging my core. Felt much smoother.

I've been doing a lot of side-slips/pivot-slips/falling-leafs lately, which have slightly different body position than carved turns (natural tip lead ok for the former), so it's good to reinforce the muscle awareness.

Appreciate everyone chiming in; always love to learn new things to help me ski better!

 

[marzNC]

May or may not be related to what we are talking about, but interesting to think about for advanced skier in any case. I only started paying attention to my hips a few years ago when I was intent on fixing the bad side turn. The fact that there is a big difference in hip flexibility between left and right was clearly a factor, along with having a very dominant side.

December 2018

 

[liquidfeet]

May or may not be related to what we are talking about, but interesting to think about for advanced skier in any case. I only started paying attention to my hips a few years ago when I was intent on fixing the bad side turn. The fact that there is a big difference in hip flexibility between left and right was clearly a factor, along with having a very dominant side.

December 2018

She does a very good job explaining things in that video. Brilliant.