What’s up with tip lead?

[MissySki]

Twice now this season, when I have skied with one particular instructor, he has mentioned my having too much tip lead. He said on steeper runs that it was so pronounced he could see space between my boots when coming down at him. I cannot feel this or see this when I look down at my skis while skiing. This is a new critique as I have never been told this before by anyone or the other instructors I’ve skied with this season. So not sure if it’s new or just the biggest thing sticking out currently. The other interesting thing is that the other women in the group this week were getting the same comments, but none of the men were. This made me wonder if there is a female anatomical thing that can also feed into this or not? I know having some tip lead definitely helps rotate the femurs at my hips.. I think?? Though I have certainly heard this for men as well, does anything make it more common for women?

Anyway, curious what anyone knows about tip lead and fixing it. Instructor was saying it might be a timing thing and also to put more weight against the boot on my inside ski. So I’m definitely thinking about it and trying to work on it, but hard to fix when I can’t feel/see it myself. I also used a GoPro one day last week and today where you can see the tips of my skis. There is definitely a little lead difference between the tips, but it doesn’t seem dramatic to me. Unsure how to judge this.. is this a big deal, and do you have any tips on feeling it and fixing it?

Thanks!

 

[tinymoose]

I got this comment a few times at race clinic a few years back and if my memory is correct, I was given a couple different suggestions for fixing it. One was to counter less, and the other was to work on pulling that inside ski back. I know for me I really don't use my inside ski actively other than as a rudder. Nearly all my weight is on my outside ski and so for me at least, I think that may exacerbate the issue? Like the inside ski just sorta runs amok? lol I haven't given it much thought in recent years b/c it's been a few years since I've had any sort of lesson, so I'll be following this.

 

[santacruz skier]

Twice now this season, when I have skied with one particular instructor, he has mentioned my having too much tip lead. He said on steeper runs that it was so pronounced he could see space between my boots when coming down at him. I cannot feel this or see this when I look down at my skis while skiing. This is a new critique as I have never been told this before by anyone or the other instructors I’ve skied with this season. So not sure if it’s new or just the biggest thing sticking out currently. The other interesting thing is that the other women in the group this week were getting the same comments, but none of the men were. This made me wonder if there is a female anatomical thing that can also feed into this or not? I know having some tip lead definitely helps rotate the femurs at my hips.. I think?? Though I have certainly heard this for men as well, does anything make it more common for women?

Anyway, curious what anyone knows about tip lead and fixing it. Instructor was saying it might be a timing thing and also to put more weight against the boot on my inside ski. So I’m definitely thinking about it and trying to work on it, but hard to fix when I can’t feel/see it myself. I also used a GoPro one day last week and today where you can see the tips of my skis. There is definitely a little lead difference between the tips, but it doesn’t seem dramatic to me. Unsure how to judge this.. is this a big deal, and do you have any tips on feeling it and fixing it?

Thanks!

Taos instructor will straighten that out for you. Think we did drills one year to prevent tip lead but of course can't remember the drill. Maybe weight the inside ski early or push back with your heel.

 

[Jilly]

The angle between the tips of your skis, should match the same angle as your hips. @liquidfeet maybe you have some illustrations...

 

[Jilly]

I should add the 3rd spot, (always think of things after I post) the shoulders. They should all line up.

 

[marzNC]

I've had more than one Level 3 instructor use the amount of tip lead as an indicator of less than optimal technique. Not just for women. Pretty sure it came up during the multi-week program several years ago at Massanutten that was for low advanced skiers, most of whom were men.

I used to have significantly different tip lead between my right and left turns. I started to solve the problem on the bad side with a couple of solo private lesson at Massanutten with an Examiner. Took 2-3 seasons to ingrain the probably approach. The issue was related to hips more than anything else. Once I felt the correct movement, it was very clear that there were gluten muscles on the bad side that were working in a way they hadn't been before.

Much easier to see and figure out ways to deal with tip lead on blue groomers.

 

[Mudgirl630]

Twice now this season, when I have skied with one particular instructor, he has mentioned my having too much tip lead. He said on steeper runs that it was so pronounced he could see space between my boots when coming down at him. I cannot feel this or see this when I look down at my skis while skiing. This is a new critique as I have never been told this before by anyone or the other instructors I’ve skied with this season. So not sure if it’s new or just the biggest thing sticking out currently. The other interesting thing is that the other women in the group this week were getting the same comments, but none of the men were. This made me wonder if there is a female anatomical thing that can also feed into this or not? I know having some tip lead definitely helps rotate the femurs at my hips.. I think?? Though I have certainly heard this for men as well, does anything make it more common for women?

Anyway, curious what anyone knows about tip lead and fixing it. Instructor was saying it might be a timing thing and also to put more weight against the boot on my inside ski. So I’m definitely thinking about it and trying to work on it, but hard to fix when I can’t feel/see it myself. I also used a GoPro one day last week and today where you can see the tips of my skis. There is definitely a little lead difference between the tips, but it doesn’t seem dramatic to me. Unsure how to judge this.. is this a big deal, and do you have any tips on feeling it and fixing it?

Thanks!

Tip lead

 

[marzNC]

Geeze, auto-correct . . . here's what I meant:

"I used to have significantly different tip lead between my right and left turns. I started to solve the problem on the bad side with a couple of solo private lesson at Massanutten with an Examiner. Took 2-3 seasons to ingrain the proper approach. The issue was related to hips more than anything else. Once I felt the correct movement, it was very clear that there were glute muscles on the bad side that were working in a way they hadn't been before."

The lessons about the bad side were after I became a Level 8 (of 9) skier out west. That was based on a lesson at a destination resort with an Examiner.

Note that the tip lead in the link posted above is related to carving for racing. That's the opposite of what works well for skiing bumps at Taos smoothly. The focus on Taos Ski Week lessons is about how to use "flat skis" to "slither" down bump terrain. Also do not want high edge angles to ski deep powder. Skiing powder and bumps is about very subtle movements and rotation, not power. Strong quad muscles not required.

 

[MissySki]

Geeze, auto-correct . . . here's what I meant:

"I used to have significantly different tip lead between my right and left turns. I started to solve the problem on the bad side with a couple of solo private lesson at Massanutten with an Examiner. Took 2-3 seasons to ingrain the proper approach. The issue was related to hips more than anything else. Once I felt the correct movement, it was very clear that there were glute muscles on the bad side that were working in a way they hadn't been before."

The lessons about the bad side were after I became a Level 8 (of 9) skier out west. That was based on a lesson at a destination resort with an Examiner.

Note that the tip lead in the link posted above is related to carving for racing. That's the opposite of what works well for skiing bumps at Taos smoothly. The focus on Taos Ski Week lessons is about how to use "flat skis" to "slither" down bump terrain. Also do not want high edge angles to ski deep powder. Skiing powder and bumps is about very subtle movements and rotation, not power. Strong quad muscles not required.

This is a movement for me being noted on groomers currently. Not sure if it is there in bumps too as we haven’t had much of those to ski during these lessons currently.

 

[CTskigrrl]

Josh Foster had a great explanation of tip lead in all mountain skiing on YouTube. About 3 minutes to watch

 

[lisamamot]

Thank you @CTskigrrl - very helpful video.

 

[Iwannaski]

Josh Foster had a great explanation of tip lead in all mountain skiing on YouTube. About 3 minutes to watch

GAH!!! This is exactly what my instructor taught me at my lesson. It has made an IMMEDIATE difference in my skiing. The way she explained it to me (excuse any muddling of the explanation, instructor divas) was to think about it as pulling the inside ski back to achieve 3 things. 1) get it “out of the way” conceptually and physically, 2) force myself to flex that inside foot to better engage LTE, 3) keep me better aligned with the fall line.

ETA: by immediate, I mean, I acted like an absolutely uncoordinated a-hole in my lesson and kept skiing like a marionette controlled by 4 different people. But my next outing was MUCH better.

 

[MissySki]

Josh Foster had a great explanation of tip lead in all mountain skiing on YouTube. About 3 minutes to watch

Thanks for that! I've been trying to pull back the inside foot as mentioned in the video, so we'll see if that clicks and creates the change we are looking for! Earlier this year there was a little drill we were doing where we were told to use a lead change to turn with very low edge angle on a flat cat track. At the time, the lead change did make it way easier to turn with what we were doing, it made the femur rotation so easy. I wonder if I too literally captured this into my skiing, as I never got a comment about this until a couple of weeks after that lesson with a different instructor. Perhaps I am also leaving the inside ski too unweighted and it allows it to move too much.

 

[Iwannaski]

@MissySki … you’re a far more advanced skier than I, but I will say that along with my instructor’s coaching on bringing back the inside ski was a stern admonishment that I was unweighting my inside ski WAY too much (i.e., sometimes it was not making contact with snow, other times it appeared to be just along for the ride). I think these issues ARE related.

She then also told me that I needed to trust my skis to ski (lol) … My trainer has also told me to trust the equipment (like the TRX) to support me. I’m starting to see a pattern.

 

[MissySki]

That makes total sense! I’ve definitely played around a lot with weighting between inside and outside skis, so maybe I’ve gone too far in one direction now.

 

[Jilly]

I love Josh!!

 

[edelweissmaedl]

GAH!!! This is exactly what my instructor taught me at my lesson. It has made an IMMEDIATE difference in my skiing. The way she explained it to me (excuse any muddling of the explanation, instructor divas) was to think about it as pulling the inside ski back to achieve 3 things. 1) get it “out of the way” conceptually and physically, 2) force myself to flex that inside foot to better engage LTE, 3) keep me better aligned with the fall line.

ETA: by immediate, I mean, I acted like an absolutely uncoordinated a-hole in my lesson and kept skiing like a marionette controlled by 4 different people. But my next outing was MUCH better.

What does LTE stand for?

 

[shadoj]

LTE = Little Toe Edge

 

[snoWYmonkey]

Too much tip lead differential can become a hindrance in most situations and impacts us in different ways.

Ideally, the only fix needed is pulling back the inside ski, but to me that does not necessarily fix the underlying problem of proper weight distribution. It definitely makes it impossible to achieve though.

By this comment I mean that we pull it back in order to be able to have it be more underneath our body/ hips/center of mass. This in turn allows us to actually pressure the ski downward which is not possible if the foot and ski are too far ahead of the outside ski and our body over that ski.

Sure, we want our weight to be pressuring the outside ski more, but at the end of the turn as we plan our transition to the new turn we ideally want to be thinking 50/50 weight distribution and starting to really pressure what will become the new outside ski.

If that ski is too far ahead, we can't stand on or over it, and we either have to do a weird turn initiation or delay the turn initation as we did not have that foot ready to be pressured and stood upon early enough. Also know as being off balance from side to side rather than fore/aft balance.

Aside from messing up our ability to flow from turn to turn, not having enough weight on the old inside ski because of too much tip lead carries the very real risk of a serious case of the banana splits in powder or chop. The inside ski at the end of the turn has zero weight on it and gets deflected by a pile of snow and the tips go on their merry way in two different directions.

Pulling back the inside ski allows for more even weight distribution in anticipation of transition, the one time we should be 50/50 even if only for a nanosecond.

It is possible to pull it back so much that it feels wholly unnatural. This is too much. I gauge it by asking myself, could I step up and onto the inside/uphill ski of I needed to? Would I fall if I lost the edge of my outside ski or is the other leg right there under me too where I can use it?

What I love about the Josh video is how he has both legs bent at the knees. Many skiers are bracing that outside leg with zero flex and I suspect that is not helping the tip lead issue one bit.

Many potential drills to help reduce the lead and bring the leg back under. The simplest is the one he mentions. Setting up for two footed hops in a traverse is sometimes enough without actually doing the hop to tell me if both legs are functionally under me and usable.

Two weighted skis are better than alternating back and forth between one and the other. I look at racers snow spray coming from both skis as a reminder. Reducing tip lead promotes stable skiing and quicker turn to turn flow.

 

[liquidfeet]

Just a note on how to pull back the inside ski, and why.

Pulling back that ski is done by sliding back the inside foot.
There's a dysfunctional way to do that, and a good way to do it.

1. Dysfunctional way to do the pull-back: Slide the foot back by using the whole leg. From the hip joint down move the entire leg backwards so the foot moves back. This movement moves the knee back along with the foot. Do not do this! There are multiple bad things that happen which I won't list here. Most important is that the objective of pulling the inside ski back fails to happen.

2. Good way to do the pull-back: Slide the foot back from the knee down. In other words, slide the foot back while bending the knee, and .... important !!!.... keep the knee in place; do not allow it to move back. Now the objective(s) will be met.

-------------------------
So what's the objective? There are several good things that happen with the inside foot pull-back, all of which contribute to your control over your skis and your turns.

a. When you slide the foot back this good way, the ski will lift its tail up and press its tip down. Why? Because the lower leg acts like a pendulum with the knee as the top point of the pendulum. The foot swings in a curve like a pendulum from the knee. This curving motion of the foot points the ski tip down and the tail up. You can allow the tail to lift if you like; it's a popular drill, and can become an embedded movement pattern in super short turns with no bad side-effects. Or you can keep the foot fully on the snow, which lightens the tail while pressing the tip downwards onto the snow. When the tail of that inside ski lightens or lifts and the tip presses down, that tip pressure engages the tip on the snow - which activates the turning action of that ski. It's like sticking a paddle straight down into the water while moving forward in a canoe; the canoe will turn because of that paddle's interaction with the water on that side. Same thing with the tip of that ski on the inside of your turn. In other words, your inside ski will be contributing to the turn along with the outside ski. It will be no longer going along for the ride, forgotten and mostly useless except to catch you if you get too far inside.

b. Bending that knee lightens the pressure on the snow your body is delivering to the ski as a whole. In other words, it lightens the ski as a unit. This in turn shifts more of your weight to the outside ski, where it belongs. Having more weight on the outside ski helps strengthen your control over your turn shape. (All this talk assumes the skier is on a firm groomer, not in powder nor in bumps.)

c. When you lighten that inside ski by bending the knee to slide the foot back, your body will do something natural to keep you from falling sideways down onto the snow. Your body will angulate a little, naturally. Your torso will get more vertical ( your shoulders will move out over the outside ski a bit) to keep itself from leaning in like the Leaning Tower of Pisa and falling onto the snow on the inside shoulder. This is natural angulation, a good thing. People who have difficulty sliding the ski back, bending that inside knee, or lifting the inside tail are resisting doing it because they fear their body will fall on its side. Their resistance keeps them from experiencing the natural balancing abilities of the body that happen when it is allowed to move unconsciously to remain in balance.

d. Another way of saying this: sliding the inside foot back prevents leaning in, prevents too much weight on the inside ski, strengthens the function of the outside ski by shifting more pressure to it, and allows the tip of the inside ski to contribute to the turning effect of the skis.