Vail: How it's changed skiing and where it might be going.

[NewEnglandSkier]

Question for the Crystal skiers--prior to joining Ikon, how much was a stand alone/Crystal only pass? $1699 seems fairly standard to what it used to be in New England before Ikon/Epic came along.
Were Crystal passes that much cheaper before?

 

[Christy]

Sadly, turning Crystal into a luxury resort has been planned for a while now, probably since Alterra bought it in 2018.

I was very surprised to learn that the development plans were approved in 2004. There are maps in the document below and you can see the hotel footprint. Look at the proposed lifts from the parking lots! I do not hate the idea of the "Park and Ride" lift that would take you from B lot to the base. But those are not in Alterra's immediate plans.

Some it was planned to make Crystal a summer "resort."

https://skimap.org/data/193/1460/1392057371.pdf

 

[Christy]

Question for the Crystal skiers--prior to joining Ikon, how much was a stand alone/Crystal only pass? $1699 seems fairly standard to what it used to be in New England before Ikon/Epic came along.
Were Crystal passes that much cheaper before?

Oh, interesting.

I had to Google to refresh my memory (I would have guessed $799) and it wasn't that easy to find, but the Tacoma News Tribune says that in 2017-2018, right before the Alterra purchase, if you bought in spring it was $695. It also says that was $155 less than 2016-2017.

Of the independent ski areas in the Cascades, White Pass's unrestricted 22/23 pass costs $669; Mt Baker $794.

 

[NWSkiGirl]

I share all of the same sentiments of both of you--lots of pontification going on by me over the same things. Interestingly, we sold our last horse due to the cost of hay increasing and the cost of diesel to tow her anywhere to ride. I grew up riding and did a lot of showing at a high level until 2013 when I moved. Skiing replaced it and was blissful here on weekdays until 2 seasons ago. I gave up Saturdays long before that and am lucky to ski weekdays but even those have turned to madness thanks to Vail Corp. Throw in so many Epic passholders being jerks on the lifts and it really irks me.

I tend to think that my 80 year old parents lived through some of the best of times, and society and the planet as a whole are on a major downswing. I worry for my 15 year old daughter. My weekday escapes to the mountains for a couple hours have been invaded by corporate greed, plain and simple. I can't even drive up there to snowshoe on the local trails as I'd be stuck in the same hour+ traffic jam that is occurring up on the access road this morning! It's disheartening. I was displaced this winter from my dream neighborhood by owners of the rental I was in (renting due to divorce) who decided to cash in and sell. I lived 15 minutes from the parking lot at Snowbasin...it's been a really tough winter and I can tell my mental health has taken a beating over it. So much greed.

It's great you had those years! I had a good ten years - I started skiing later in life, unfortunately.

I think what happened at Crystal has hit me so hard because of everything you mention... They are taking away my zen place for pure greed. I agree it seems the best days are behind us. We aren't heading in the right direction right now, that's for sure. Add in 3G and moving into outer space and it's clear we are just going to keep developing and developing regardless of the price we pay for it.

Maybe a move to europe is the answer!

 

[NWSkiGirl]

I too do not want to see more mountain development, but I don't think, in this era of climate change, there's going to be much in the way of new ski area development in the US. Maybe in northern BC or somewhere, but especially in the PNW--we have the precip, but with warmer temps, all the snowmaking in the world won't help with that.

I share a lot of people's frustrations. I also have found myself spending less time outdoors, year round, and it is also not good for my mental health. In terms of moving elsewhere--then there's always the risk that place will change. Look how fast the small ski areas are selling out. John Kircher had hardly bought Crystal before turning around and selling to Alterra. And if we're talking about the rural West, in addition to development there's wildfires (we declined to buy a rental cabin we've rented for years, despite the good price and the fact that I love it, because the area is so fire prone), and politics...I personally am increasingly uncomfortable in the rural West.



Hey! I volunteer at Save a Forgotten Equine in Redmond and I think you SHOULD adopt a horse! From SAFE of course. https://www.safehorses.org/meet-the-safe-horses/

Yes, I agree it will be hard to come up with a 10 year business plan for a ski resort with climate change looming!

You are right about nothing being guaranteed! I was going to move closer to Crystal just so my baby girl could grow up skiing there. Now I never want to ski there again.

John Kircher sent out a letter to everyone outlining why he felt he had to sell Crystal to Alterra in 2018. He had wanted to keep the resort in his family for generations. Crystal and Stevens had competed for customers for years, so when Stevens sold to Vail he said he felt he wouldn't be able to compete with the new infrastructure and also lower prices Vail would bring for skiers in the area. So he felt he had to sell. It's so sad he was so wrong about that. :-(

I am also avoiding the fire threatened areas, and while I'm looking into MT I'm only considering Missoula and Bozeman for the reasons you mention!

But I feel the need to get out of Seattle. The housing prices are astronomical and will only get worse with the tech companies here...

 

[NWSkiGirl]

I too do not want to see more mountain development, but I don't think, in this era of climate change, there's going to be much in the way of new ski area development in the US. Maybe in northern BC or somewhere, but especially in the PNW--we have the precip, but with warmer temps, all the snowmaking in the world won't help with that.

I share a lot of people's frustrations. I also have found myself spending less time outdoors, year round, and it is also not good for my mental health. In terms of moving elsewhere--then there's always the risk that place will change. Look how fast the small ski areas are selling out. John Kircher had hardly bought Crystal before turning around and selling to Alterra. And if we're talking about the rural West, in addition to development there's wildfires (we declined to buy a rental cabin we've rented for years, despite the good price and the fact that I love it, because the area is so fire prone), and politics...I personally am increasingly uncomfortable in the rural West.



Hey! I volunteer at Save a Forgotten Equine in Redmond and I think you SHOULD adopt a horse! From SAFE of course. https://www.safehorses.org/meet-the-safe-horses/

Aw, I wanted to volunteer at your rescue but I couldn't commit to doing it weekly. It seems like such a great place. I want to adopt them all!!

 

[NWSkiGirl]

Oh, interesting.

I had to Google to refresh my memory (I would have guessed $799) and it wasn't that easy to find, but the Tacoma News Tribune says that in 2017-2018, right before the Alterra purchase, if you bought in spring it was $695. It also says that was $155 less than 2016-2017.

Of the independent ski areas in the Cascades, White Pass's unrestricted 22/23 pass costs $669; Mt Baker $794.

Yes, I remember one year a pass at Crystal was $800 with tax and it seemed astronomical. Compare that to $1700!

If only Baker and White Pass were a little closer. Maybe I'll move out to Mission Ridge. Dryer snow and sunshine!

 

[NWSkiGirl]

I was very surprised to learn that the development plans were approved in 2004. There are maps in the document below and you can see the hotel footprint. Look at the proposed lifts from the parking lots! I do not hate the idea of the "Park and Ride" lift that would take you from B lot to the base. But those are not in Alterra's immediate plans.

Some it was planned to make Crystal a summer "resort."

https://skimap.org/data/193/1460/1392057371.pdf

I'll give it a look! Someone posted the attached expansion plan. It says the new hotel is needed for the skiers. Not true - we don't want it!

I wrote the US Forest Service and asked them if they are aware of the traffic problems and lack of parking, the parking reservations system, the $500 parking pass (now pulled back), and the busing in of skiers. Why would they approve all that new development when Crystal doesn't have the parking to support it?

 

[Christy]

Crystal and Stevens had competed for customers for years, so when Stevens sold to Vail he said he felt he wouldn't be able to compete with the new infrastructure and also lower prices Vail would bring for skiers in the area. So he felt he had to sell.

Oh, I thought that was such bs when he said that. Crystal has every advantage over Stevens. And geographically they are far enough apart that while there is some overlap from Seattle/Eastside skiers, many people, like in SnoCo or Pierce Co, are just going to go to the closer area. There is no way, with how the area is growing and tourism has grown, Crystal would suffer. Alterra made him an offer he couldn't refuse, period.

Maybe I'll move out to Mission Ridge. Dryer snow and sunshine!

Yeah but you're skiing on manmade--they hardly get any snow. Like, only 100" the last couple of years. Base and mid mountain depth 27" right now.

Why would they approve all that new development when Crystal doesn't have the parking to support it?

Part of the plan is for more parking, where employee housing is now (then this gets bumped down the valley) plus the shuttle system.

It says the new hotel is needed for the skiers. Not true - we don't want it!

I know. But the Ikon travelers and summer tourists will fill it. Plus weddings, events, etc. They are going to make $$$$ on that.

 

[Lmk92]

Meanwhile, at an Indy in Maine...

Saddleback Mountain plans to build $4.5M affordable housing complex in Rangeley

The project received a lead gift of $1.5 million to fund construction of housing for seasonal workers in Rangeley and on Saddleback. Economic development has been stifled because workforce housing is in short supply, said the donors.

www.mainebiz.biz

 

[NWSkiGirl]

Meanwhile, at an Indy in Maine...

Saddleback Mountain plans to build $4.5M affordable housing complex in Rangeley

The project received a lead gift of $1.5 million to fund construction of housing for seasonal workers in Rangeley and on Saddleback. Economic development has been stifled because workforce housing is in short supply, said the donors.

www.mainebiz.biz

We need more of this!

 

[Lmk92]

Here's a start

Vail Resorts to raise minimum wage to $20 per hour

Vail Resorts on Monday announced the company will be increasing its minimum wage to $20 per hour for the 2022/2023 North American ski season.

www.vaildaily.com

 

[ddskis]

This letter

Vail Resorts CEO, Kirsten Lynch Sets ‘A New Direction’ In Letter To Employees

Vail Resorts CEO, Kirsten Lynch Sets ‘A New Direction’ In Letter To Employees

www.snowindustrynews.com

 

[NWSkiGirl]

Here's a start

Vail Resorts to raise minimum wage to $20 per hour

Vail Resorts on Monday announced the company will be increasing its minimum wage to $20 per hour for the 2022/2023 North American ski season.

www.vaildaily.com

I love that! To me Vail seems serious about improving things at their resorts. I don’t think that would have happened without a huge skier outcry. Attached is a comic that ran in our local paper, The Seattle Times. Vail got hit hard in the press here in the PNW this season.

I'm also happy to hear they are keeping their pricing model as is, instead of going the way of Alterra and the way many thought leaders have proposed.

Thought leaders have cited major league sports and golf as examples of how to run a ski resort - recommending the creation of premium tiers, removing the “ski anytime” model, and making money off non skiing activities. That’s what they did at my home mountain, Crystal in WA, and it’s going to ruin the ski culture starting next season, when the middle class will no longer be able to afford to ski.

I think golf is an alarming example - golf is a rich man’s sport. It can’t be only about supply and demand, and placing commercialization over skiing culture. I personally think the mountains should be for all, especially on Forest Service land, and doubling pass prices is not acceptable.

Of course the real answer is keeping pass prices reasonable and not overselling them. But with most of the major ski resorts owned by publicly traded companies we haven’t seen that happen yet. Fingers crossed things are moving the right direction with Vail.

 

[NWSkiGirl]

This letter

Vail Resorts CEO, Kirsten Lynch Sets ‘A New Direction’ In Letter To Employees

Vail Resorts CEO, Kirsten Lynch Sets ‘A New Direction’ In Letter To Employees

www.snowindustrynews.com

I didn't realize their CEO is a woman! So cool

 

[snoWYmonkey]

Curious to see how the existing employees get treated in terms of raises as nothing concrete was outlined to prevent the dreaded wage compression effect

Guessing it will be like Jackson Hole where I work. Also a woman run resort, where none of us that have worked there for four or five or more years saw a raise when the lower wage employees got theirs.

Vail is working on getting new and low paid returning employees to be faithful to the company as labor is increasingly hard to get and retain. Oh wait, HR calls us talent not labor these days....bahahahha.

 

[altagirl]

I love that! To me Vail seems serious about improving things at their resorts. I don’t think that would have happened without a huge skier outcry. Attached is a comic that ran in our local paper, The Seattle Times. Vail got hit hard in the press here in the PNW this season.

I'm also happy to hear they are keeping their pricing model as is, instead of going the way of Alterra and the way many thought leaders have proposed.

Thought leaders have cited major league sports and golf as examples of how to run a ski resort - recommending the creation of premium tiers, removing the “ski anytime” model, and making money off non skiing activities. That’s what they did at my home mountain, Crystal in WA, and it’s going to ruin the ski culture starting next season, when the middle class will no longer be able to afford to ski.

I think golf is an alarming example - golf is a rich man’s sport. It can’t be only about supply and demand, and placing commercialization over skiing culture. I personally think the mountains should be for all, especially on Forest Service land, and doubling pass prices is not acceptable.

Of course the real answer is keeping pass prices reasonable and not overselling them. But with most of the major ski resorts owned by publicly traded companies we haven’t seen that happen yet. Fingers crossed things are moving the right direction with Vail.

While I know the situation varies a lot depending on your location... that is absolutely not true about the costs of golfing here in Utah anyway. We have a lot of public courses and the nicer ones are maybe $27 a round. There are cheaper courses that cost $12 a round and $6.50 a round for kids. Starter clubs are not that expensive.

You couldn't even go sit in the ski lodge and buy a meal for that. Sure, if your talking about a country club membership - yeah that's a rich person's place. But public golf courses are waaaaaaay cheaper than skiing in Utah.

 

[NWSkiGirl]

While I know the situation varies a lot depending on your location... that is absolutely not true about the costs of golfing here in Utah anyway. We have a lot of public courses and the nicer ones are maybe $27 a round. There are cheaper courses that cost $12 a round and $6.50 a round for kids. Starter clubs are not that expensive.

You couldn't even go sit in the ski lodge and buy a meal for that. Sure, if your talking about a country club membership - yeah that's a rich person's place. But public golf courses are waaaaaaay cheaper than skiing in Utah.

Oh that's interesting! Good to know. I'd say in Southern California, where I grew up, golf is definitely only for the wealthy. Except miniature golf. lol

I'm not sure about Washington State, as I'm not a golfer and we get a lot of rain. So I don't hear a lot about golf here.

 

[Iwannaski]

I’ve golfed posh and I’ve golfed cheap. Right now, i don’t golf because I don’t have either the company or the prioritization to do it.

Maybe someday. But the time aspect alone makes it pretty indulgent.

 

[marzNC]

As of 2021, a quarter of the VR resorts have a woman in charge, including Vail and Beaver Creek. Kirsten Lynch became CEO in November 2021. Her professional background includes marketing and data science. She grew up in Chicago and skied at Wilmot (bought by VR in 2016).

Pat Campbell took on leadership of the mountain division in 2015. She stepped down from that role in 2021 and became a senior advisor. She started working in the ski industry as a ski instructor at Jackson Hole.

March 2021

32 Degrees: Pat Campbell’s Professional Journey

32 Degrees: Pat Campbell’s Professional Journey View this article, by Peter Kray, that originally appeared on page 36 in the winter 2021 issue of 32 Degrees magazine. When Pat Campbell decided to take a job as a ski instructor for a season pass and the opportunity to work outdoors,

thesnowpros.org

April 2021

Vail Resorts Announces Executive Leadership Changes | Vail Resorts, Inc.

The Investor Relations website contains information about Vail Resorts, Inc.'s business for stockholders, potential investors, and financial analysts.

investors.vailresorts.com

" . . .
Campbell was appointed president of Vail Resorts' mountain division in 2015 and has since overseen the integration and acquisition of 26 resorts. She joined the Company in 1999 as director of ski school at Breckenridge Ski Resort. Between 2006 and 2015, Campbell was chief operating officer first at Keystone Resort and then at Breckenridge. Prior to joining Vail Resorts, she held leadership positions at Grand Targhee Resort and Jackson Hole Mountain Resort, where she started her career in 1985 as a ski instructor.
. . ."