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Vail: How it's changed skiing and where it might be going.

newboots

Angel Diva
So much has been written about this, here and elsewhere. You, and tens of thousands like you, are sick of this, and the corporate greed behind it. It's too late for me (on the East coast) to write all that I feel, but look around. You're not alone.

I have been rethinking large resorts. I think I want to turn my efforts to smaller, closer hills. I haven't the faintest ideas what's available in the PNW. In New England and elsewhere, hundreds of small, inexpensive, family-run ski areas (NOT resorts) have closed their doors in the last few decades. I think the big corporations have convinced Americans that huge resorts = skiing. IMHO, huge resorts = big spending for us and big profits for them.

Who needs a $29 burger for lunch with $12 fries? Somebody got water the other day for $3.99 at some resort lunch counter. I don't need truffle fries to go with my PB&J! Oh dear. This is no way to get ready for bed! I can feel my blood pressure spiking!

There's a tiny hill near me, Mt. Peter, that offers free lessons to beginners on weekends and holidays. I might try to get a job teaching there next year. I haven't seen it, but doesn't that sounds like how skiing should be? I know I'll want to ski bigger mountains and longer runs too, but honestly, it has become insane, and kind of ugly. The photographs of those lift lines at Stevens, and knowing that passholders couldn't find parking before first chair! Aaaugh! Words fail me.
 

NWSkiGirl

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
So much has been written about this, here and elsewhere. You, and tens of thousands like you, are sick of this, and the corporate greed behind it. It's too late for me (on the East coast) to write all that I feel, but look around. You're not alone.

I have been rethinking large resorts. I think I want to turn my efforts to smaller, closer hills. I haven't the faintest ideas what's available in the PNW. In New England and elsewhere, hundreds of small, inexpensive, family-run ski areas (NOT resorts) have closed their doors in the last few decades. I think the big corporations have convinced Americans that huge resorts = skiing. IMHO, huge resorts = big spending for us and big profits for them.

Who needs a $29 burger for lunch with $12 fries? Somebody got water the other day for $3.99 at some resort lunch counter. I don't need truffle fries to go with my PB&J! Oh dear. This is no way to get ready for bed! I can feel my blood pressure spiking!

There's a tiny hill near me, Mt. Peter, that offers free lessons to beginners on weekends and holidays. I might try to get a job teaching there next year. I haven't seen it, but doesn't that sounds like how skiing should be? I know I'll want to ski bigger mountains and longer runs too, but honestly, it has become insane, and kind of ugly. The photographs of those lift lines at Stevens, and knowing that passholders couldn't find parking before first chair! Aaaugh! Words fail me.
I guess I'm late to the party on this! I didn't notice much until it happened to my own home mountain...

I agree with you! Who needs resorts like that? The joy in skiing cannot be found with a $29 burger.

My blood pressure has been simmering for a few days now!

Mt Peter sounds lovely! We don't have a privately owned ski resort near Seattle - the closest one is 3 hours away. But I want to relocate near one. :-) You aren't alone in finding that charming and refreshing.

Only 30% of the terrain was open at Steven Pass this year!! It's a mess over there.

Have a good night!
 

contesstant

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I hope I'm not offending anyone who works for any of the ski resorts I may mention, but I think it's time to really look at what the major ski conglomerates have done to our country's ski resorts. And what the future of skiing looks like for those of us who are not millionaires.

My local Washington mountain, Crystal, got bought out by Alterra in 2018 because the owner felt he couldn't compete with the low prices he was seeing for the IKON and Vail passes. After buying Crystal, Alterra put Crystal under the IKON pass, and then we immediately starting experiencing nightmare traffic and parking issues. This was because they sold too many IKON passes and also started running Crystal advertising in Seattle. But since the IKON pass was only $700, we all overlooked it and even humored Crystal as they complained about the capacity issues they themselves had caused.

Well, this week Crystal hiked their season pass up to $1700! A 41% increase in one year, plus announcing paid parking for pass holders. We're all in shock, and completely disgusted because at the same time they announced an expansion plan that includes a new 100 room hotel with conference and meeting rooms, and a commons at the base with retail and "exceptional dining options." They are also tearing down our beloved high end lodge at the top of the mountain and putting in a 14,000 square foot retail and dining building. So basically they are pricing out the locals and catering to millionaires. All the while talking about "roots" and "community" in a video that was incredibly fake and out of touch. Even the look of the buildings they're putting in don't vibe with a ski resort, and they aren't upgrading anything skiing related. They are putting in more parking but now they are offering it to people who will $500 pay for it and are busing everyone else in. Basically, they are getting rid of their local skiers. I was going to move closer to Crystal so my baby girl could learn to ski there, but it's no longer a mountain I want to live next to because I think they are completely ruining the mountain's ski culture. Good development makes a profit and benefits the community, and this does neither of those things.

Stevens Pass, also near me, is not doing any better under Vail. 41K people signed a petition against Vail this season.

What are everyone's thoughts on the overcrowding, price hikes, and mismanagement at our most beloved resorts under Alterra and Vail? Is there a way forward where we can keep the ski culture we love and not pay astronomical prices?
I feel for you. My home mountain is still privately owned (by Sinclair Oil--isn't that a dichotomy) but partnered with the Epic pass last season much to the chagrin of the locals. We felt the squeeze last season but I think due to Covid, overall skier visits were tempered. Well this season, it's ridiculous and downright depressing what has happened there. I have skied 90+ days per season at Snowbasin since 2014, and have visited there prior since 2001. One thing that I could count on were blissfully quiet midweek days. Not so any more. No lie, my rough estimate based on pre-9 a.m. lift lines is that skier numbers are up by the thousands every day. In the past, there might be 500 skiers total on any given midweek day. The gondola line on midweek days in the past until joining Epic were literally 20 skiers, now there are 200-400 people waiting in line, plus the other lifts that usually have no line have 50-100 people waiting. This absolutely translates into busier runs even once the lines die down. I have always felt safe from the out-of-control idiots skiing midweek, now I'm finding I have to have my head on a swivel every day. My other observation is that these skiers just don't follow the same "flow" that the locals do. The don't know the choke points, the merge spots, etc.

I've had some really amusing?? lift rides with Epic passholders, too. Just yesterday, I loaded a six pack with 2 others who first passive--aggressively bitched about "the bar people" (after I asked to put the bar down) then proceeded to talk and laugh incredibly loudly in their native language (something eastern European) the entire ride. They were obnoxious. I love riding with foreigners and asking about their native home as so many have interesting stories. I used to chat with strangers on the lifts. Now I just sit in silence as I've had too many rides where the conversations had me shaking my head because the people felt entitled and had no respect for the mountain or the locals. Two guys from Minnesota (who I had the pleasure of riding the gondola with twice in two days) bragged about how fast they were and how Utah skiers don't know how to use their edges and they literally did not stop talking the entire ride, both times, 12 minutes each, about how amazing they were and how they prefer ice over soft snow. I wanted to ask why the hell they came to ski Utah, then?

Another ride, a lady who is used to skiing Park City got on and bitched about having to pull her pass out because Snowbasin still has to scan the passes. She held up the line so proceeded to get on the gondola and complain about no RFID. I wanted to tell her to go back to the mountains that have it.

So much crowding, so much disrespect for the locals, the bathrooms are a mess, the parking lots fill up early every day. I liken it to someone visiting a foreign country then opining to the locals there how much better your own country is, and not following local customs, etc. I realize some of it is ignorance of the mountain and terrain, but it doesn't change the fact that I LOATHE that Snowbasin sold out to the Vail greed. We'll see how the IKON+ pans out for next season. I'm not super hopeful.

Still debating getting an Indy Pass next year.
 

NWSkiGirl

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I feel for you. My home mountain is still privately owned (by Sinclair Oil--isn't that a dichotomy) but partnered with the Epic pass last season much to the chagrin of the locals. We felt the squeeze last season but I think due to Covid, overall skier visits were tempered. Well this season, it's ridiculous and downright depressing what has happened there. I have skied 90+ days per season at Snowbasin since 2014, and have visited there prior since 2001. One thing that I could count on were blissfully quiet midweek days. Not so any more. No lie, my rough estimate based on pre-9 a.m. lift lines is that skier numbers are up by the thousands every day. In the past, there might be 500 skiers total on any given midweek day. The gondola line on midweek days in the past until joining Epic were literally 20 skiers, now there are 200-400 people waiting in line, plus the other lifts that usually have no line have 50-100 people waiting. This absolutely translates into busier runs even once the lines die down. I have always felt safe from the out-of-control idiots skiing midweek, now I'm finding I have to have my head on a swivel every day. My other observation is that these skiers just don't follow the same "flow" that the locals do. The don't know the choke points, the merge spots, etc.

I've had some really amusing?? lift rides with Epic passholders, too. Just yesterday, I loaded a six pack with 2 others who first passive--aggressively bitched about "the bar people" (after I asked to put the bar down) then proceeded to talk and laugh incredibly loudly in their native language (something eastern European) the entire ride. They were obnoxious. I love riding with foreigners and asking about their native home as so many have interesting stories. I used to chat with strangers on the lifts. Now I just sit in silence as I've had too many rides where the conversations had me shaking my head because the people felt entitled and had no respect for the mountain or the locals. Two guys from Minnesota (who I had the pleasure of riding the gondola with twice in two days) bragged about how fast they were and how Utah skiers don't know how to use their edges and they literally did not stop talking the entire ride, both times, 12 minutes each, about how amazing they were and how they prefer ice over soft snow. I wanted to ask why the hell they came to ski Utah, then?

Another ride, a lady who is used to skiing Park City got on and bitched about having to pull her pass out because Snowbasin still has to scan the passes. She held up the line so proceeded to get on the gondola and complain about no RFID. I wanted to tell her to go back to the mountains that have it.

So much crowding, so much disrespect for the locals, the bathrooms are a mess, the parking lots fill up early every day. I liken it to someone visiting a foreign country then opining to the locals there how much better your own country is, and not following local customs, etc. I realize some of it is ignorance of the mountain and terrain, but it doesn't change the fact that I LOATHE that Snowbasin sold out to the Vail greed. We'll see how the IKON+ pans out for next season. I'm not super hopeful.

Still debating getting an Indy Pass next year.
Wow! I'm so sorry, especially since your resort is still privately owned. I wonder why Snowbasin won't just pull out of the Epic Pass arrangement? Weren't they doing okay without it? Do they really want those overcrowded conditions at their resort? It sounds like the "ugly Americans" are ruining your resort!

At Crystal we're going to lose the local skiers and everything that is fun about skiing. I loved being on the lift chair with a barber from Seattle, a kid from the mountain's racing club, a mom from Bonney Lake, and a 70 year old retiree who just got a knee replacement. It's always a very eclectic group, and we all share a common love for skiing. These people will no longer be able to afford skiing at Crystal. To be honest, I'll be on the lift chair with rich people. That just seems really depressing and not what skiing is all about. I love the whole mountain experience. Crystal is killing an entire ski culture.

I feel like I need to move out of the Seattle area. Maybe out to Mission Ridge here in WA where there is dry snow and sunshine. And where a kids pass is $29!! Can you imagine? So refreshing. Or maybe down to Mt Shasta in CA.
 

marzNC

Angel Diva
Wow! I'm so sorry, especially since your resort is still privately owned. I wonder why Snowbasin won't just pull out of the Epic Pass arrangement? Weren't they doing okay without it? Do they really want those overcrowded conditions at their resort? It sounds like the "ugly Americans" are ruining your resort!
Sun Valley and Snowbasin did end the partership with Epic. The two resorts will be on the Ikon Base Plus for 2022-23.

While there is a consistent set of issues for Vail Resorts, based somewhat on the business model in terms of how operational decisions are made, be a little careful of painting all resorts owned by a multi-regional multi-location company as having similar issues. Alterra, Boyne Resorts, Powdr are certainly not perfect. However their resorts are managed differently than resorts owned by Vail Resorts. Some of the issues out west at large mountains are different than the issues in the southwest, midwest, southeast, mid-Atlantic, or northeast.

To get a feel for the business realities of operating a ski resort, large or small, the podcast interviews by Stuart Winchester of Storm Skiing provide a great deal of insight. In 2022 he interview Rob Katz and Rusty Gregory. More recently he interviewed Amber Broadaway, who is now in charge of Solitude after having worked for a while at Sugarbush.
 

snoWYmonkey

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
@contesstant and the resort I am based at are both privately owned, and in my case family owned by oil and gas money as well, and run by a board of former fortune 500 CEOs. Burgers are definitely very expensive. On the flip side a locally Vail owned hotel wisely stayed shut as they could not provide safe lodging for their employees during covid. In my mind this one Vail manager did a great job while my own privately owned employer followed the least restrictive state guidelines. It is all so many shades of grey.
 

NWSkiGirl

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
This is really good: a podcast offering solutions to Vail management by the guy who used to do the Wintry Mix Podcast. Some excellent thoughts here; I encourage you to listen.

https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-8erwe-11b1b56
Thanks so much! Those are great suggestions. And I agree the big companies need to listen to their local experienced staff when trying to solve issues. And treat their employees better - although Crystal under Alterra does a good job of that. That's surely not the case with Vail, though.

It's true that these big companies really have no idea how to sell ski passes. They just grossly oversell them. I think they could offer tiers, but the lower tiers need to be a good value. For instance, Crystal is busing in the local skiers while allowing "rich" people to buy a parking pass for $500 - I think that's wrong. So they need to be careful there.

I wonder if Vail and Alterra will listen? They are getting some bad press!
 

contesstant

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Thanks so much! Those are great suggestions. And I agree the big companies need to listen to their local experienced staff when trying to solve issues. And treat their employees better - although Crystal under Alterra does a good job of that. That's surely not the case with Vail, though.

It's true that these big companies really have no idea how to sell ski passes. They just grossly oversell them. I think they could offer tiers, but the lower tiers need to be a good value. For instance, Crystal is busing in the local skiers while allowing "rich" people to buy a parking pass for $500 - I think that's wrong. So they need to be careful there.

I wonder if Vail and Alterra will listen? They are getting some bad press!
So apparently Crystal has already heard the messages loud and clear and walked back their paid parking passed, but for how many seasons?

Snowbasin is dropping Epic for IKON plus next season but I don't see that as a positive. I see it as trading one conglomerate for another. More perspective is known for those who know the history of the mountain and how the owner, Earl Holding, prior to his death 7?? years ago, had a vision and that vision was NOT what it has turned into. Passes for the masses was not what he was aiming for. The mountain is NOT laid out to accommodate the numbers it is now hosting. It is downright dangerous at the choke points, of which there are several.

I see so much of how our current levels of inflation are tied to corporate greed and appeasing shareholders and these ski pass conglomerates are just following that trend. It makes me even more determined to shop local or shop smaller businesses with expressed values that mirror my own. Unfortunately when it comes to where I ski, I don't have ANY nearby options that are not part of the latest conglomerates. Powder Mountain is not an option because it's impossible to buy a season pass there (and I have my own issues with their ownership and the greed they display in the Ogden Valley, including trampling on the water rights of the residents there.) Long-term plans include moving to a more remote mountain area in the next five years. Not sure how that will play out with the housing market the way it is.
 

NWSkiGirl

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
So apparently Crystal has already heard the messages loud and clear and walked back their paid parking passed, but for how many seasons?

Snowbasin is dropping Epic for IKON plus next season but I don't see that as a positive. I see it as trading one conglomerate for another. More perspective is known for those who know the history of the mountain and how the owner, Earl Holding, prior to his death 7?? years ago, had a vision and that vision was NOT what it has turned into. Passes for the masses was not what he was aiming for. The mountain is NOT laid out to accommodate the numbers it is now hosting. It is downright dangerous at the choke points, of which there are several.

I see so much of how our current levels of inflation are tied to corporate greed and appeasing shareholders and these ski pass conglomerates are just following that trend. It makes me even more determined to shop local or shop smaller businesses with expressed values that mirror my own. Unfortunately when it comes to where I ski, I don't have ANY nearby options that are not part of the latest conglomerates. Powder Mountain is not an option because it's impossible to buy a season pass there (and I have my own issues with their ownership and the greed they display in the Ogden Valley, including trampling on the water rights of the residents there.) Long-term plans include moving to a more remote mountain area in the next five years. Not sure how that will play out with the housing market the way it is.
Crystal walked back the paid parking for passholders for now, but there's still the parking reservation system that allows them to free up parking for what we are calling their new "rich" target customer anytime they want. And they said they walked back parking in order to "help ease the transition," so we think it'll for sure be there next year. Plus with the $1700 pass rate most of us don't see it as an improvement. They also have a habit of changing things midseason so some are not happy with more back and forth on their policies and don't trust it.

Parking and traffic became a major problem at Crystal for the first time after Crystal fell under the Alterra/IKON pass for one season, and it's never recovered. So I would agree - switching to IKON isn't going to fix an overcrowding problem.

Crystal is moving away from passes for the masses, but the're getting there by pricing out local skiers - including families and retirees. If they find a way to price very fairly for their local skiers and charge a premium to those they are making the $100 in mountain improvements for, I would support that. Sadly they chose the wrong way to get there. At this point unless I see some true humanity from them and they switch to a really low local pass rate, like $899, I will no longer call Crystal my home mountain on principal. It's not that they are short staffed or have bad policies or have sold too many passes like Vail - they have made it very clear that the loyal skiers who have called that mountain home for years are not important to them. That corporate greed and not skiing is what's important. So I'm not supporting them any longer. I was Crystal's number one fan until this happened so it's sad times to have to move home mountains. They do treat their employees well, so I'll always have good memories ski instructing there. And I've of course had countless fun times there!

We are in the same situation... We also don't have a local day mountain that isn't owned by a large company near to Seattle. And you're right, the housing market isn't making a move to a rural area easy at this time! It's also on my list, though.

I wonder what Warren Miller would think? And where are all the guys who created these ski resorts back in the day? We need them to create more for us.
 

shadoj

Angel Diva
I wonder what Warren Miller would think? And where are all the guys who created these ski resorts back in the day? We need them to create more for us.
And here's a huge dilemma: I enjoy the outdoors; I am an environmentalist. Creating new ski runs/resorts adds destruction to the same places I want to visit in their natural beauty. Cuts for roads and runs remove trees, increase runoff/erosion, and allow increased traffic/compaction/pollution. Lifts require power. Terrain probably should be kept sparse, with what already exists. Perhaps, refurbish/reopen the "ghost" resorts. Encourage gentle, backcountry/touring use to spread out the impact as more people want to enjoy the sport.

How many skier-days can the total existing number of resorts handle safely? How many skiers, and future skiers, are there? What's a "fair" number of days that everyone gets to ski per season?

Can we think about going smaller, not bigger? How many houses/properties should an individual/corporation get to own? How many dark/empty days should a property be allowed to have; how many extra bathrooms & bedrooms would be better used by locals & resort workers?

I just pulled out a couple old Big Sky maps from 93/94 & 04/05. I was 23 in 04/05, and was horrified how overdeveloped and pricy things had become even then. My early memories were everyone gathering around the fireplace to watch Warren Miller movies on a pull-down screen via projector. Next thing I knew, they had their own movie theatre showing Disney and such (why? aren't we supposed to be skiing?)! Sigh.

I really don't know what to do. Another former favorite activitiy, horseback riding, is in the same boat with pricing/accessibility: horses require ever-shrinking land. Too many people want chunks of property that they don't really use, except for showing off a chemically-treated, monoculture lawn. Grrr.
 
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contesstant

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I share all of the same sentiments of both of you--lots of pontification going on by me over the same things. Interestingly, we sold our last horse due to the cost of hay increasing and the cost of diesel to tow her anywhere to ride. I grew up riding and did a lot of showing at a high level until 2013 when I moved. Skiing replaced it and was blissful here on weekdays until 2 seasons ago. I gave up Saturdays long before that and am lucky to ski weekdays but even those have turned to madness thanks to Vail Corp. Throw in so many Epic passholders being jerks on the lifts and it really irks me.

I tend to think that my 80 year old parents lived through some of the best of times, and society and the planet as a whole are on a major downswing. I worry for my 15 year old daughter. My weekday escapes to the mountains for a couple hours have been invaded by corporate greed, plain and simple. I can't even drive up there to snowshoe on the local trails as I'd be stuck in the same hour+ traffic jam that is occurring up on the access road this morning! It's disheartening. I was displaced this winter from my dream neighborhood by owners of the rental I was in (renting due to divorce) who decided to cash in and sell. I lived 15 minutes from the parking lot at Snowbasin...it's been a really tough winter and I can tell my mental health has taken a beating over it. So much greed.
 

altagirl

Moderator
Staff member
And here's a huge dilemma: I enjoy the outdoors; I am an environmentalist. Creating new ski runs/resorts adds destruction to the same places I want to visit in their natural beauty. Cuts for roads and runs remove trees, increase runoff/erosion, and allow increased traffic/compaction/pollution. Lifts require power. Terrain probably should be kept sparse, with what already exists. Perhaps, refurbish/reopen the "ghost" resorts. Encourage gentle, backcountry/touring use to spread out the impact as more people want to enjoy the sport.

How many skier-days can the total existing number of resorts handle safely? How many skiers, and future skiers, are there? What's a "fair" number of days that everyone gets to ski per season?

Can we think about going smaller, not bigger? How many houses/properties should an individual/corporation get to own? How many dark/empty days should a property be allowed to have; how many extra bathrooms & bedrooms would be better used by locals & resort workers?

I just pulled out a couple old Big Sky maps from 93/94 & 04/05. I was 23 in 04/05, and was horrified how overdeveloped and pricy things had become even then. My early memories were everyone gathering around the fireplace to watch Warren Miller movies on a pull-down screen via projector. Next thing I knew, they had their own movie theatre showing Disney and such (why? aren't we supposed to be skiing?)! Sigh.

I really don't know what to do. Another former favorite activitiy, horseback riding, is in the same boat with pricing/accessibility: horses require ever-shrinking land. Too many people want chunks of property that they don't really use, except for showing off a chemically-treated, monoculture lawn. Grrr.
This. The lines and traffic these days frustrate me... but the horrendous air quality here and seeing cars idling for hours to get up and down the canyon... (I can literally see the lights on the snake of cars from home...) I feel guilty contributing to the issues and it contributes to me not skiing much anymore.
 

NWSkiGirl

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
And here's a huge dilemma: I enjoy the outdoors; I am an environmentalist. Creating new ski runs/resorts adds destruction to the same places I want to visit in their natural beauty. Cuts for roads and runs remove trees, increase runoff/erosion, and allow increased traffic/compaction/pollution. Lifts require power. Terrain probably should be kept sparse, with what already exists. Perhaps, refurbish/reopen the "ghost" resorts. Encourage gentle, backcountry/touring use to spread out the impact as more people want to enjoy the sport.

How many skier-days can the total existing number of resorts handle safely? How many skiers, and future skiers, are there? What's a "fair" number of days that everyone gets to ski per season?

Can we think about going smaller, not bigger? How many houses/properties should an individual/corporation get to own? How many dark/empty days should a property be allowed to have; how many extra bathrooms & bedrooms would be better used by locals & resort workers?

I just pulled out a couple old Big Sky maps from 93/94 & 04/05. I was 23 in 04/05, and was horrified how overdeveloped and pricy things had become even then. My early memories were everyone gathering around the fireplace to watch Warren Miller movies on a pull-down screen via projector. Next thing I knew, they had their own movie theatre showing Disney and such (why? aren't we supposed to be skiing?)! Sigh.

I really don't know what to do. Another former favorite activitiy, horseback riding, is in the same boat with pricing/accessibility: horses require ever-shrinking land. Too many people want chunks of property that they don't really use, except for showing off a chemically-treated, monoculture lawn. Grrr.
I love all your thoughts! I'm an environmentalist as well, but I see ski resorts much lower on the list of evils to stamp out. I think you have more faith in the future with climate change than I do, unfortunately. I hope the world and my perspective changes on that soon as I'm having a baby. I don't want to be a mother who doesn't believe in the future. I'm on a long term news detox as I can no longer bear what is happening in the world.

They are saying resort visits are flat, regardless of the overcrowding. How can that be? I have no idea! So that makes the case for using the resorts we already have. But we can never get Crystal back from Alterra - it's gone. As are so many other great resorts.

Someone mentioned an area near Seattle that could possibly be developed. They said it's being used by snowmobilers and backcountry skiers and already has some established runs. I like the idea of more backcountry skiing for all! But I'm not skilled so it adds an element of risk and I also like to chat with strangers on the lift chair and have a snack in the lodge. Otherwise that would be my personal answer.

I'm okay with the Warren Miller movies, although I know they're expensive and have been commercialized. They get people excited once a year. And I like that they include old footage. When I see clips from the past in those movies I see a different skiing world. One guy in a film said something like, "Skiing ruined my life." What he meant was he didn't go to college or get a good job - he became a ski bum. Now you have to be rich to ski - there's no affordable lodging in our ski towns, and pass prices are too high now.

Funny - I thought if I can't ski maybe I'll buy a rescue horse! I guess that's not the answer either.
 

Christy

Angel Diva
I would like to know what the business strategy was, in terms of Crystal setting the season price so high. A $700 jump is big. I am very glad that they are limiting IKON users to 7/5 days, but the regular season pass price ($1599 renewal/$1699 new) puts it as one of the most expensive in the US. It looks like, in terms of single mountain passes, only Telluride, Sun Valley, Deer Valley and Jackson Hole are more expensive. (I might have missed something and not everyone has their 22/23 prices out yet). That puts Crystal in pretty lofty company, and it does not have the amenities or offer the services of those others (though the size and terrain are comparable or better). Do they just think the market can bear it? There's definitely a lot of money in the area, and many people will wash their hands of Stevens Pass and be looking elsewhere, but still.
 
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Christy

Angel Diva
I too do not want to see more mountain development, but I don't think, in this era of climate change, there's going to be much in the way of new ski area development in the US. Maybe in northern BC or somewhere, but especially in the PNW--we have the precip, but with warmer temps, all the snowmaking in the world won't help with that.

I share a lot of people's frustrations. I also have found myself spending less time outdoors, year round, and it is also not good for my mental health. In terms of moving elsewhere--then there's always the risk that place will change. Look how fast the small ski areas are selling out. John Kircher had hardly bought Crystal before turning around and selling to Alterra. And if we're talking about the rural West, in addition to development there's wildfires (we declined to buy a rental cabin we've rented for years, despite the good price and the fact that I love it, because the area is so fire prone), and politics...I personally am increasingly uncomfortable in the rural West.

Funny - I thought if I can't ski maybe I'll buy a rescue horse! I guess that's not the answer either.

Hey! I volunteer at Save a Forgotten Equine in Redmond and I think you SHOULD adopt a horse! From SAFE of course. https://www.safehorses.org/meet-the-safe-horses/
 
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shadoj

Angel Diva
Hey! I volunteer at Save a Forgotten Equine in Redmond and I think you SHOULD adopt a horse! From SAFE of course. https://www.safehorses.org/meet-the-safe-horses/
Aw, man, I'd take Darla in a heartbeat if I had the funds. Looks to be part/all Appy. Miss my old mare! Thanks for working with all the horses in need! :smile:

Forgot to even mention climate change. That's definitely going to compress more skiers into fewer areas / shorter seasons.
 

NWSkiGirl

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I would like to know what the business strategy was, in terms of Crystal setting the season price so high. A $700 jump is big. I am very glad that they are limiting IKON users to 7/5 days, but the regular season pass price ($1599 renewal/$1699 new) puts it as one of the most expensive in the US. It looks like, in terms of single mountain passes, only Telluride, Sun Valley, Deer Valley and Jackson Hole area more expensive. (I might have missed something and not everyone has their 22/23 prices out yet). That puts Crystal in pretty lofty company, and it does not have the amenities or offer the services of those others (though the size and terrain are comparable or better). Do they just think the market can bear it? There's definitely a lot of money in the area, and many people will wash their hands of Stevens Pass and be looking elsewhere, but still.
I was also happy to see IKON limited at Crystal this year. But then I saw the new pass price!

Sadly, turning Crystal into a luxury resort has been planned for a while now, probably since Alterra bought it in 2018. I saw their plan a year or two back (they said they were going to cater to their Sky Camp clientele = glampers), but I didn't know they'd raise pass rates to support it. My guess is they have been adding all the luxury amenities that will make it a world class resort, and they now feel comfortable dumping all the local skiers. The only problem with their plan is they have no parking to support their new development, so they have been running a huge campaign to get everyone to bus in. I'm fine busing in as long as they aren't giving all our parking to their new luxury clientele - which they will be doing via their new parking reservation system.

It's super sad to watch this happen to Crystal. At first I was really angry, but now I'm just sad...
 

Christy

Angel Diva
This. The lines and traffic these days frustrate me... but the horrendous air quality here and seeing cars idling for hours to get up and down the canyon... (I can literally see the lights on the snake of cars from home...) I feel guilty contributing to the issues and it contributes to me not skiing much anymore.

Me too thus my purchase of an EV that has clearance and AWD.

Not that I don't have an impact elsewhere or that that's the answer for everyone, but it's something I feel I can do.
 

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